Hokkien in a dot
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Originally posted by SJS6638:
Taiwanese hokkien : or pek kong , is the meaning telling lies?
in ( or-- peh_ korng\ ) , the ( or-- peh_ ) has the original sense of ( 亂亂 ) , therefore ( or-- peh_ korng\ ) can be interpreted as ( 亂亂講 )。Also exist ( �白來 ) = anyhow do, ( �白寫 ) = anyhow write, and so on.....
in Singaporean Hokkien equivalent to it is ( lwan_ choo/ korng\ ) or ( si\ snwa\ korng\ ) .
My equivalent of "telling lies" is better matched to ( peh_ chhart''' ) .
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Originally posted by TehJarVu:
hanging around doing nothing i thot is YLP?
( yo_ lan_ phar''' ) has our strong local flavour.
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Originally posted by Genie99b:
why jia not lim .....bangu....explanation pls
( chiah_ XYZdrink ) is usually used in the sense of abstract "to enjoy some drink"
( lim-- XYZdrink ) is usually used in the sense of the actual action of "drink something"
Example:
( Wa\ cheet''' choon_ lim-- kopi-o-kosong ) = "I am telling you that I am in the midst of drinking kopi-o-kosong"
( Wa\ cheet''' choon_ chiah_ kopi-o-kosong ) = "I am telling you that what I had ordered in front of me now is kopi-o-kosong"
( Knyia/, lai_ khee\ lim-- chiew\ ! ) = "Come on, let's go and order some wine/beer/alcohol to drink together !"
( Knyia/, lai_ khee\ chiah_ chiew\ ! ) = "Come on, let's go and enjoy the atmosphere of getting a booze together !"
See the difference ?
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
bo jiak pa bah bah.
I also never hear before but I guess from your explanation the characters are
" 無食，�肉肉 " ？ （ no-eat , hit-meat-meat） or anything else?
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
I also never hear before but I guess from your explanation the characters are
" 無食，�肉肉 " ？ （ no-eat , hit-meat-meat） or anything else?
not sure of the exact words but seems to heard it from my parent generation only. Think is a local word that no longer in use.
also use for careless or reckless.
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
not sure of the exact words but seems to heard it from my parent generation only.
wow, keep them coming
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May be is a reference to the lazy heckcare attitude of the colonial peranakans (baba).
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
May be is a reference to the lazy heckcare attitude of the colonial peranakans (baba).
what a shame to the babas! however it should be strange that our hokkien has been infiltrated by so much baba vocabulary had we detested them !
I guess that, maybe our ancestors wanted to have an easy lifestyle like them as well and admired them to some extent (secretly hehehe)
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
what a shame to the babas! however it should be strange that our hokkien has been infiltrated by so much baba vocabulary had we detested them !
I guess that, maybe our ancestors wanted to have an easy lifestyle like them as well and admired them to some extent (secretly hehehe)
in some yes becos of their affulences.
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
in some yes becos of their affulences.
i agree
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ylp or hlp is a bit chor lor.
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
ylp or hlp is a bit chor lor.
what is hlp? however I know shortform plp
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
what is hlp? however I know shortform plp
hiu shake lp not often heard nowaday. usually as keow kah hlp. Very free do nothing.
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
hiu shake lp not often heard nowaday. usually as keow kah hlp. Very free do nothing.
Aiyo �
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
( chiah_ XYZdrink ) is usually used in the sense of abstract "to enjoy some drink"
( lim-- XYZdrink ) is usually used in the sense of the actual action of "drink something"
Example:
( Wa\ cheet''' choon_ lim-- kopi-o-kosong ) = "I am telling you that I am in the midst of drinking kopi-o-kosong"
( Wa\ cheet''' choon_ chiah_ kopi-o-kosong ) = "I am telling you that what I had ordered in front of me now is kopi-o-kosong"
( Knyia/, lai_ khee\ lim-- chiew\ ! ) = "Come on, let's go and order some wine/beer/alcohol to drink together !"
( Knyia/, lai_ khee\ chiah_ chiew\ ! ) = "Come on, let's go and enjoy the atmosphere of getting a booze together !"
See the difference ?
abit lar....agar agar
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actually why must YLP leh.......bery sexist wor.....YKC betta right?
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Now I lim Pepsi.
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:lol:
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
in ( or-- peh_
korng\ ) , the ( or--
peh_ ) has the original sense of (
亂亂 ) , therefore ( or-- peh_
korng\ ) can be interpreted
as (
亂亂講 )。Also exist ( �白來 ) = anyhow do, ( �白寫
) = anyhow write, and so on.....in Singaporean Hokkien equivalent to it is ( lwan_ choo/ korng\ ) or ( si\ snwa\ korng\ ) .
My equivalent of "telling lies" is better matched to ( peh_ chhart''' ) .
Or pek yee eh tao. Sorry, just cannot stand tw hokkien. Thanks for reply. Those are what we will say.
Bangu, did you see a thread here that says "Free Taiwanese Hokkien Lessons"?
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Originally posted by SJS6638:
Or pek yee eh tao. Sorry, just cannot stand tw hokkien. Thanks for reply. Those are what we will say.
Bangu, did you see a thread here that says "Free Taiwanese Hokkien Lessons"?
Ya I saw it at Chit Chat.
Nothing to discuss there about it because he is offering Taiwanese Hokkien Lessons and he did not lie that he is going to offer Local Hokkien Lessons what. so whoever is interested can attend mah.
My dear sis, for every Singaporean who says that they dislike Tw Hokkien will equally in numbers meet with a Taiwanese who will say they dislike Sg Hokkien because to them Sg Hokkien contains a handful amount of Cantonese, Teochew, Peranakan Malay, English, Hainanese loanwords and sentence patterns.
Also the history of formation of Hokkiens is different in Taiwan and Singapore, therefore of course there will be tonal patterns which are different.
Let me give a short glimpse:
China Hokkien had been moving to Taiwan even since the Ming Dynasty in huge numbers and the mass migration started from Ch'ing Dynasty. However in SE.Asia it was small numbers in Ming and Ch'ing and only gained significant momentum after Ch'ing collapsed. Our history of Hokkien in Sg is definitely shorter than that of Taiwan. And furthermore those small numbers that came here in the Ming period has already been acculturated into the Straits/Peranakan ethnic group already and cannot be counted as true Hokkien speakers.
After the 1949 takeover of Communist in China, China launched various campaigns to destroy local languages. Before Communist takeover of China, there was already an exodus of Hokkien literati (that time called 書塾) to Taiwan due to the turmoil in China between the Kuomintang and the Communist struggle for power. This resulted that education level in China were not high during the takeover period and later the banishment of intellectuals across China during Cultural revolution, the uneducated masses has been misled into thinking speaking local languages is a sign of "backward" behaviour due to government brainwashing.
Those Kuomintang who crossed to Taiwan at 1945 did not immediately stop Hokkien language, it was due to a gradual process because the people who held power in Kuomintang were northerners (incld. Wu speaking areas). They actively propagated Mandarin so that they "feel" they stay in power. These populations who crossed over to Taiwan from 1945 can be identified roughly 15% of current Taiwanese population, however they did a lot to stop Hokkien from being propagated in education and later on in gradual steps in the media. However as the standards of education in Taiwan is quite high all along (because when the Ch'ing dynasty collapse and after that, lots of literati left Hokkien province for Taiwan and bought the traditional Hokkien education to Taiwan and saved the destruction of Hokkien education from the Communist China), the awareness of Hokkien is much higher in Taiwan than in China or in Singapore.
In Singapore, much more similar to China, most Hokkien people who arrived here in Ch'ing period are non-educated and mostly villagers and fishermans and coolies, therefore they were not aware of the precious mother tongue being forcefully shamed by the government after the new independent government took over. To them, learning the language of the "officials" were more important than preserving one's own "mother tongue" as it brings "food" onto the table.
This is how the government in 3 different countries took away the rights of the mother tongue.
What is different is the Hokkien literati who arrived in Taiwan after fleeing the political turmoil in China had taken root in Taiwan and helped survived the traditional 書塾 Hokkien education which has been destroyed in China.
The traditional 書塾 Hokkien education had not had enough time to take root to mature in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia Hokkien communities before
I) the Singapore government took steps to eradicate dialects
II) Malaysian government took steps to play political disharmony between different dialect groups in malaysia such that the chinese community were forced to unite themselves by setting up mandarin schools, and
III) Indonesian government took steps to eradicate all forms of Chinese indication in the society under Soeharto. -
Originally posted by Genie99b:
abit lar....agar agar
it's "agak-agak" not "agar-agar" (food)
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Part II:
From the Ming and Ching dynasty onwards, the Hokkien who arrived in Taiwan tend to stay together in their different local varieties. Example: the Chuanchew speakers (incl Ankhway, Engchoon, Lam'Ua) and Amoy people tend to cluster in the north (current Taipei and the west coast) while the Chiangchew speakers (incl Chiau'An, LengNga) tend to cluster in the central and the south.
What came the next disatrous event for Hokkiens in Taiwan is the exodus of Mainlanders after 1945 who came with Kuomintang families. The power people took their political base in Taipei and built the Kuomintang government based in the north. In Taiwan Hokkien history, it is known that Taipei Hokkien speakers were among the 1st to give up speaking Hokkien and turned to the government language Mandarin. That means the Amoy, Chuanchew, Ankhway, Engchoon, and Lam'Ua speakers were the first and foremost who gave up their mother tongue due to the stronger presence of the Kuomintang Mandarin government in the north.
The Central and South who were more Chiangchew, Chiau'An speakers were spared from this initial language shift which happened to the Amoy, Chuanchew, Ankhway, Engchoon and Lam'Ua speakers in the north. As Taiwan transits to a more democratic society in the 80's, the Northern Taiwanese had already lose their ability to speak Hokkien. The current strength of the Taiwanese language movement hence had to come from the Central and the South, which are more Chiangchew and Chiau'An based Hokkien. This is the VERY reason that you feel why Taiwanese Hokkien is not very familiar to our ears.
Why?
Because what happened in Singapore Hokkien is exactly the opposite. In Singapore, there were not only Hokkien immigrants but Teochew, Hainanese, Cantonese, Hockchiew, Henghua, Hakka as well. A rough estimate would be if there were 100 Chinese, 40 are Hokkien, 22 are Cantonese, 20 are Teochew, 6 are Hainanese, 6 are Hakka and the rest are others. Out of these 40 Hokkiens, perhaps an estimated 25 are Amoy/Chuanchew type and 15 are Chiangchew/LengNga type. Why did the Singapore Hokkien turned out to be more of Amoy/Chuanchew type is because of these initial difference in numbers. Secondly, the Chuanchew type specifically possessed more similar traits in Vowel qualities to the Teochew dialect and facilitated the Teochew people using Hokkien as a common language easier compared to Chiangchew type. So much so the the Amoy/Chuanchew type turned out to be the stronger influential language in Singapore and the Singapore radio stations, TV programs in the past and Rediffusion had used the Amoy as the Hokkien standard variety for Singapore.
Therefore to Singaporeans, Taiwanese Hokkien now sounds different but whereas in the past, it was actually Taiwanese Hokkien should sound = Singaporean Hokkien, because in the past, the northern Taipei were populated by Amoy speaking peoples. However, these Amoy speakers were also the first ones to give up their mother language and switched over to the language of the northern mainlander new government which was mandarin. Nowadays it is said that in Taipei you can't hear any Amoy Hokkien spoken by people below 70 years old. To hear Hokkien you have to go countryside in the south where young people still speaks Hokkien (but it's Chiangchew type Hokkien)
This shall be a short intro, it is good that you read up more yourself.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Ya I saw it at Chit Chat.
Nothing to discuss there about it because he is offering Taiwanese Hokkien Lessons and he did not lie that he is going to offer Local Hokkien Lessons what. so whoever is interested can attend mah.
My dear sis, for every Singaporean who says that they dislike Tw Hokkien will equally in numbers meet with a Taiwanese who will say they dislike Sg Hokkien because to them Sg Hokkien contains a handful amount of Cantonese, Teochew, Peranakan Malay, English, Hainanese loanwords and sentence patterns.
Also the history of formation of Hokkiens is different in Taiwan and Singapore, therefore of course there will be tonal patterns which are different.
Let me give a short glimpse:
China Hokkien had been moving to Taiwan even since the Ming Dynasty in huge numbers and the mass migration started from Ch'ing Dynasty. However in SE.Asia it was small numbers in Ming and Ch'ing and only gained significant momentum after Ch'ing collapsed. Our history of Hokkien in Sg is definitely shorter than that of Taiwan. And furthermore those small numbers that came here in the Ming period has already been acculturated into the Straits/Peranakan ethnic group already and cannot be counted as true Hokkien speakers.
After the 1949 takeover of Communist in China, China launched various campaigns to destroy local languages. Before Communist takeover of China, there was already an exodus of Hokkien literati (that time called 書塾) to Taiwan due to the turmoil in China between the Kuomintang and the Communist struggle for power. This resulted that education level in China were not high during the takeover period and later the banishment of intellectuals across China during Cultural revolution, the uneducated masses has been misled into thinking speaking local languages is a sign of "backward" behaviour due to government brainwashing.
Those Kuomintang who crossed to Taiwan at 1945 did not immediately stop Hokkien language, it was due to a gradual process because the people who held power in Kuomintang were northerners (incld. Wu speaking areas). They actively propagated Mandarin so that they "feel" they stay in power. These populations who crossed over to Taiwan from 1945 can be identified roughly 15% of current Taiwanese population, however they did a lot to stop Hokkien from being propagated in education and later on in gradual steps in the media. However as the standards of education in Taiwan is quite high all along (because when the Ch'ing dynasty collapse and after that, lots of literati left Hokkien province for Taiwan and bought the traditional Hokkien education to Taiwan and saved the destruction of Hokkien education from the Communist China), the awareness of Hokkien is much higher in Taiwan than in China or in Singapore.
In Singapore, much more similar to China, most Hokkien people who arrived here in Ch'ing period are non-educated and mostly villagers and fishermans and coolies, therefore they were not aware of the precious mother tongue being forcefully shamed by the government after the new independent government took over. To them, learning the language of the "officials" were more important than preserving one's own "mother tongue" as it brings "food" onto the table.
This is how the government in 3 different countries took away the rights of the mother tongue.
What is different is the Hokkien literati who arrived in Taiwan after fleeing the political turmoil in China had taken root in Taiwan and helped survived the traditional 書塾 Hokkien education which has been destroyed in China.
The traditional 書塾 Hokkien education had not had enough time to take root to mature in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia Hokkien communities before
I) the Singapore government took steps to eradicate dialects
II) Malaysian government took steps to play political disharmony between different dialect groups in malaysia such that the chinese community were forced to unite themselves by setting up mandarin schools, and
III) Indonesian government took steps to eradicate all forms of Chinese indication in the society under Soeharto.Thanks, bangu. Where did u learn all this hokkien history?
I read half, too long. Will continue reading later.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
it's "agak-agak" not "agar-agar" (food)
hannah hannah dun make me pai say lar
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Paiseh only when one is proud to be corrected.