Speaking dialect has its uses

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 19:55

  An article for your reading interest.   I had cutted out this article by our local author / composer æ¢�æ–‡ç¦� from the newspaper (æ—©å ±) between 1994-1996 that time (the date was lost,  but according to the chronological order of how I kept it,  it falls between 1994 to 1996).  He talks about how The Dialects can convey the Old Sounds of Ancient Chinese better than current Mandarin Chinese.

  

• Clivebenss

  1 Aug 11, 19:59

  may be you should go to listen to tong guan 洞管, the classic Hokkien hymns.

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 20:02

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  may be you should go to listen to tong guan 洞管, the classic Hokkien hymns.

  I've never heard of this literary form before. Even searching through the net yields nil results. I try to find it and let you know one day.

• Clivebenss

  1 Aug 11, 20:09

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  I've never heard of this literary form before. Even searching through the net yields nil results. I try to find it and let you know one day.

  also sometimes refers as �管, �音 or 錦曲(as presentation to higher officials). I think the club 湘�音�社 is at Bukit Pasoh dunno if it is still there.

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 20:23

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  also sometimes refers as �管, �音 or 錦曲(as presentation to higher officials). I think the club 湘�音�社 is at Bukit Pasoh dunno if it is still there.

  Alamak.  å�—音 nam im , I know la.  I dunno it is also called 洞管 tang kuan .

• Clivebenss

  1 Aug 11, 20:25

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  An article for your reading interest.   I had cutted out this article by our local author / composer æ¢�æ–‡ç¦� from the newspaper (æ—©å ±) between 1994-1996 that time (the date was lost,  but according to the chronological order of how I kept it,  it falls between 1994 to 1996).  He talks about how The Dialects can convey the Old Sounds of Ancient Chinese better than current Mandarin Chinese.

  

  yes, mandarin is too simplified in tones and diplongs therefore unable to project the sound that are much complicated in ancient time. I remember my teacher telling me that in the later Ching Dynasty, the speaking is very different.

• Clivebenss

  1 Aug 11, 20:27

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  Alamak.  å�—音 nam im , I know la.  I dunno it is also called 洞管 tang kuan .

  tong kuan.

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 20:29

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  tong kuan.

  oh, the æ´ž must read the literary pronunciation arh. ok I will remember tong kuan from now on.

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 20:32

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  yes, mandarin is too simplified in tones and diplongs therefore unable to project the sound that are much complicated in ancient time. I remember my teacher telling me that in the later Ching Dynasty, the speaking is very different.

   

  I have another article from 1997-1998 from æ—©å ±,  on why Hokkien is the most ancient dialect in China.

  I will get it scanned soon and post it here soon.

   

  Yes, Mandarin is too simplified in tones, diphthongs, therefore unable to project the ancient sounds of the T'ang and Song poems accurately.   One just simply need to take a T'ang or Song Poem and use the Hokkien literary pronunciation or use Cantonese or Hakka to read,  it will rhyme.

  But, by later Ch'ing dynasty, the dialects have stable down into what it is now already.  We have the evidence for Hokkien from the 泉州å��五音。

   

   

  Add:

  want to clarify:   the pronunciation have stable down already (by Ch'ing dynasty, the last change of Chuanchew has already been effected by Ch'ing dynasty).   By the vocabulary, is VERY different.

  Clarification :)

• Clivebenss

  1 Aug 11, 20:42

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

   

  I have another article from 1997-1998 from æ—©å ±,  on why Hokkien is the most ancient dialect in China.

  I will get it scanned soon and post it here soon.

   

  Yes, Mandarin is too simplified in tones, diphthongs, therefore unable to project the ancient sounds of the T'ang and Song poems accurately.   One just simply need to take a T'ang or Song Poem and use the Hokkien literary pronunciation or use Cantonese or Hakka to read,  it will rhyme.

  But, by later Ch'ing dynasty, the dialects have stable down into what it is now already.  We have the evidence for Hokkien from the 泉州å��五音。

  yes, Hokkien is old, it is much influence by Chu 楚 (of 楚 霸王). My dad always reminded me to read 屈原 poems in Hokkien as that what it would have sound like the ancient words. Most �管 is derived from 屈原 poems.

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 20:46

  So now you understand why I use the character å…® sometimes in my transliteration for the Hokkien 「的ã€�“e”.

  This character appears in 屈原's poems very often in his 楚 language, example the most famous verse：如漫漫其修�兮，�將上下而求索�

• Clivebenss

  1 Aug 11, 20:48

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  So now you understand why I use the character å…® sometimes in my transliteration for the Hokkien 「的ã€�“e”.

  This character appears in 屈原's poems very often in his 楚 language, example the most famous verse：如漫漫其修�兮，�將上下而求索�

  yes, I do, just I'm very rusty liao, many yrs didn't use.

• Clivebenss

  1 Aug 11, 20:58

  久入�兰之室

  而�識其香

  before he jumped into the river.

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 22:37

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  久入�兰之室

  而�識其香

  before he jumped into the river.

  You do know that in Hokkien, more than 50% of the characters has dual readings right ?

  For poems, it is tradition that we must use the literary readings, rather than the vernacular reading,  unless a literary reading for a particular character does not exist,  and vice versa.

  Therefore, if I were to read out aloud the poem you quoted above, I must read it as

  Kiu Lip Tsu Lan Tsu Sit

  Li Put Sik Ki Hiong

         and I should not read it as "Ku Lip Tsi Lan Tsi Sit,  Li Mm Pat Ki Ph'ang"

   

  For all the T'ang poems, similarly, we must read it in this literary readings to achieve the rhyming patterns of the poems intended.

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 22:53

   

  A common "complaint" (or rather 發牢騷) from the Cantonese people whom I met before,  that they say they cannot pick up Hokkien properly,  is due to Hokkien having many pronunciations for many characters.

        This is true.

  As native speakers, I learnt the many different pronunciations since I am a kid.  For 2nd language learners (like Cantonese people), it is very difficult for them because Cantonese usually has only 1 pronunciation per character (either than some exceptions, like those from the eng~ing variation which i can describe in detail in another posting)

  Example:  The character 熱 can be read as liet or luaË€ depending on the context.  For liet, it is used in the context of "a lot of people", for luaË€, it is used in the context of "hot weather or environment". As native speakers, I do not make the mistakes that other learners of Hokkien might make, because all these are very clear cut.

   

  I give 2 incident of 鬧笑話 by 2 Cantonese speakers in the past whom I met before.

  One girl (Cantonese) was looking down from the office window, and shouted to the some people in the office (using her learnt Hokkien), that there's a car at the carpark, the headlights "tit tit siam, tit tit siam". It was so funny, that the rest of the people laughed immediately, because she doesn't know that é–ƒ in Hokkien has 2 pronunciations, "siam" and "niË€" (actually there is one more seldomly used one, "sÄ©Ë€" used in "lightning"), thus what she said actually meant "the headlights kept avoiding, the headlights kept avoiding".    To say "the headlights kept flashing", she should use "tit tit niË€, tit tit niË€".

  Another incident by someone (I cannot remember, but he is not Hokkien), tried to say "mai tsh'ue" to ask someone not to blow the dust something off the table using his mouth,  but he doesn't know that in Hokkien,  there are 2 different usage of "blow",  when you say "the wind blows", you should use "tsh'ue" (<Chiangchew pronunciation),  but when you use your mouth to blow, you should use "pun" (which has a character of it's own 〉 "å�£ç›†" )

   

• Clivebenss

  1 Aug 11, 23:17

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  You do know that in Hokkien, more than 50% of the characters has dual readings right ?

  For poems, it is tradition that we must use the literary readings, rather than the vernacular reading,  unless a literary reading for a particular character does not exist,  and vice versa.

  Therefore, if I were to read out aloud the poem you quoted above, I must read it as

  Kiu Lip Tsu Lan Tsu Sit

  Li Put Sik Ki Hiong

         and I should not read it as "Ku Lip Tsi Lan Tsi Sit,  Li Mm Pat Ki Ph'ang"

   

  For all the T'ang poems, similarly, we must read it in this literary readings to achieve the rhyming patterns of the poems intended.

  I understand that as most �音 is in literal readings. My dad is good in �音 verses, but I did not learn from him. I was too westernise by late teens and too busy with studies.

  Very funny "mai tsh'ue" if tone is wrong can be a total disaster to misintrepret as "don't destroy".

   

• BanguIzai

  1 Aug 11, 23:49

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

   

  I understand that as most �音 is in literal readings. My dad is good in �音 verses, but I did not learn from him. I was too westernise by late teens and too busy with studies.

  Very funny "mai tsh'ue" if tone is wrong can be a total disaster to misintrepret as "don't destroy".

  Therefore I need you to enlighten me, 2 of the idioms in front, which pronunciations should I use:

  1)  å……壓賣å�‡è²¨

  • I do not have problem with è³£å�‡è²¨ã€‚But I need to know you want me to read 充壓 as Tsh'iong Teh (Vernacular Reading) or Tsh'iong Iap (Literary Reading)?

  2)  å¤©åŠ è�½

  • You want me to read as Th'Ä© Ke Lau / Th'Ä© Ke Loh (Vernacular Reading) or Th'ien Ka Lok (Literary Reading) ?

   

  Another observation:

  • 四散, as far as I had knew, was a borrowed term from 潮州話 for Hokkien people in Singapore, am I correct?
  • Why's mai tsh'ue related to don't destroy?  you wanna hint 碎？

• Clivebenss

  2 Aug 11, 00:01

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  Therefore I need you to enlighten me, 2 of the idioms in front, which pronunciations should I use:

  1)  å……壓賣å�‡è²¨

  • I do not have problem with è³£å�‡è²¨ã€‚But I need to know you want me to read 充壓 as Tsh'iong Teh (Vernacular Reading) or Tsh'iong Iap (Literary Reading)?

  2)  å¤©åŠ è�½

  • You want me to read as Th'Ä© Ke Lau / Th'Ä© Ke Loh (Vernacular Reading) or Th'ien Ka Lok (Literary Reading) ?

   

  Another observation:

  • 四散, as far as I had knew, was a borrowed term from 潮州話 for Hokkien people in Singapore, am I correct?
  • Why's mai tsh'ue related to don't destroy?  you wanna hint 碎？

  充庒 chiong chng

  天加� thi ka lau

  四散� is Hokkien

  mai tsh'ue if in literal translation from Mandarin, if the last word is twisted a bit off.

  

   

• Ianytha.....

  2 Aug 11, 00:03

  What do you call window in hokkien?

• Clivebenss

  2 Aug 11, 00:07

  Originally posted by Ianytha.....:

  What do you call window in hokkien?

  tang kow.

• BanguIzai

  2 Aug 11, 00:11

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  充庒 chiong chng

  天加� thi ka lau

  四散� is Hokkien

  mai tsh'ue if in literal translation from Mandarin.

  

   

  oh sorry my fault

  1)  I thought that word is "press" -> "壓"。  So it is 粧/莊 tsng.   Thanks for letting me know about Tsh'iong Tsng.

  2)  So the phrasing for 天加è�½ is [ 天 / 加è�½ ]。 Thanks for letting me know that the latter boundary is the word for "fall", otherwise without phrase boundary, it makes no sense to me as I did not realise the 加 is not "add" but is a phonetic combination with è�½ to make “加è�½”。  For me, it's because I learnt "交è�½" for "fall", I thought your 加 was something else.

  3)  å››æ•£ really Hokkien?  Hmm.  I learnt that authentic Hokkien does not use 四散 but æ¿«ç³� lam sam  or  äº‚主 luan tsu .   As a Singaporean, of course I do use 四散 si sÅ©ã,  but in my conscious mind,  I recognise it as part of the Singaporean dialect mixture from Teochew.

  4)  Still don't understand what you mean.

• BanguIzai

  2 Aug 11, 00:12

  Originally posted by Ianytha.....:

  What do you call window in hokkien?

  I say th'ang nga mng  çª—仔門

• Clivebenss

  2 Aug 11, 00:21

  四散 (character) and  亂主 (action) is similar = inconsiderate

  but 濫� is different = lazy.

  my hokkien is rusty liao so my apology if I blunder.

• BanguIzai

  2 Aug 11, 00:51

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  四散 (character) and  亂主 (action) is similar = inconsiderate

  but 濫� is different = lazy.

  my hokkien is rusty liao so my apology if I blunder.

  your æ¿«ç³� is lazy!   my æ¿«ç³� is used in the same sense as 凊彩,  example: æ¿«ç³�食 lam sam tsiaË€  and  å‡Šå½©é£Ÿ tsh'in tsh'ai tsiaË€   is used in the same sense as "anyhow eat"

  therefore, you use æ¿«ç³� lam sam like 貧憚 pin tűã ?

• Clivebenss

  2 Aug 11, 01:04

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  your æ¿«ç³� is lazy!   my æ¿«ç³� is used in the same sense as 凊彩,  example: æ¿«ç³�食 lam sam tsiaË€  and  å‡Šå½©é£Ÿ tsh'in tsh'ai tsiaË€   is used in the same sense as "anyhow eat"

  therefore, you use æ¿«ç³� lam sam like 貧憚 pin tűã ?

  yes 濫� = 貧憚= lazy.

  I don't use  æ¿«ç³�食 (unless you are referring to too lazy to eat joking )

  but 四散食 = eat anything

  凊彩食  = eat without selection, not selectively.

  there is some differences in usage.