Blood Sacrifice
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Another metaphor (last one
). Hopefully, this one is a better one. Suppose you have all the symptoms of scurvy,
the doctor identified that you have scurvy,
the doctor identified the cause of your scurvy,
the doctor identified that your scurvy can be cured,
the doctor identified ways to cure your scurvy.
the doctor gave you vitamin c, does it matter whether the vitamin c is derived from oranges/ apples/ passionfruits/ grapefruits/ tomatoes/ cantaloups/ cabbages/ blueberries/ raspberries/ cranberries/ pineapples/ lemons/ kiwis/ mungbeansprouts/ broccoli/ guava/ peppers/ papayas/ guavas/ stawberries/ clementines/ grapes/ etc?
the doctor expounded various forms of vitamin c - tablets/ powdered crystalline/ effervescent/ liquid and with many flavours/non-flavor so you could take it according to your preference - orally/dilute in water/juices/IV therapy.
do you take the cure or go looking for the one who gave you scurvy/ created scurvy /created vitamin c etc?
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Originally posted by zeus29:
Another metaphor (last one
). Hopefully, this
one is a better one. Suppose you have all the symptoms of scurvy,
the doctor identified that you have scurvy,
the doctor identified the cause of your scurvy,
the doctor identified that your scurvy can be cured,
the doctor identified ways to cure your scurvy.
the doctor gave you vitamin c, does it matter whether the vitamin c is derived from oranges/ apples/ passionfruits/ grapefruits/ tomatoes/ cantaloups/ cabbages/ blueberries/ raspberries/ cranberries/ pineapples/ lemons/ kiwis/ mungbeansprouts/ broccoli/ guava/ peppers/ papayas/ guavas/ stawberries/ clementines/ grapes/ etc?
the doctor expounded various forms of vitamin c - tablets/ powdered crystalline/ effervescent/ liquid and with many flavours/non-flavor so you could take it according to your preference - orally/dilute in water/juices/IV therapy.
do you take the cure or go looking for the one who gave you scurvy/ created scurvy /created vitamin c etc?
I think you are still confused between cause and cure. Once the doctor identified the cause of your problems he could prescribe the cure. That would presuppose that the doctor had the right knowledge about such things to begin with. But if he does not, then he will want to know what is the cause by asking some diagnostic questions.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I think you are still confused between cause and cure. Once the doctor identified the cause of your problems he could prescribe the cure. That would presuppose that the doctor had the right knowledge about such things to begin with. But if he does not, then he will want to know what is the cause by asking some diagnostic questions.
depned on how serious or the type of illnesses you toking about. some very serious major and conplicated ones doctors no matter how experince good they are always and can seek a second opinion fomr his peer doctors colleagues. its a very complex human body, let alone the fact that each and everyone of our bodies behavors defeerntly and certain areas are very unique of individuals.yes its good to alwasy seek a second opinon.
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Originally posted by troublemaker2005:
depned on how serious or the type of illnesses you toking about. some very serious major and conplicated ones doctors no matter how experince good they are always and can seek a second opinion fomr his peer doctors colleagues. its a very complex human body, let alone the fact that each and everyone of our bodies behavors defeerntly and certain areas are very unique of individuals.yes its good to alwasy seek a second opinon.
Your point is noted but if I were to respond it would be to deviate far from the original point of the analogy. Point being that an effective cure would mean to know the cause or being able to identify the correct cause. -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I think you are still confused between cause and cure. Once the doctor identified the cause of your problems he could prescribe the cure. That would presuppose that the doctor had the right knowledge about such things to begin with. But if he does not, then he will want to know what is the cause by asking some diagnostic questions.
And I trust buddha to have the right knowledge just like you trust jesus. Is there a problem?
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Originally posted by zeus29:
BroInChrist - With all due respect, I think you digressed. Here's our earlier conversation.
What if creation is true or not? What does it change? What are the implications? We're still here. Suffering is still here. As explained by the Buddha, our suffering originates from our own attachment and aversion.
You believe in the creator, right? What are the implications? You're still here. You still suffer from ups and downs, attachment and aversion like all of us who don't believe/emphasize on the creator, don't you?
Your reason of finding the spider is to tell the doctor which spider had bitten you so he could give you the right anti-venom, right? What if the doctor is skillful enough and had went through the same thing and could identify all the symptoms and could gave you medicine accordingly without even looking for the spider. Do you take it or go looking for the spider? The spider is not going to give you an antidote, the doctor will.
How about what if you're kidnapped, made unconscious and later found yourself left in a forest? There's a footpath left by someone (the buddha) and lights (dharma) lighting the way. Do you walk the path or go searching for the kidnappers? As mentioned earlier, Gautama Buddha's human vessel was subjected to human conditions. Even though, his human vessel is no longer here, his dharma continue to lit the path. His teaching is very much alive and relevant even to this day. In his last moments, the buddha advised us to focus on the teaching rather than the person.
So, he showed the way, too. right? However, his approach is different as one can only go to heaven through jesus no matter how much good deeds one has done.
Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.
1. Right view
2. Right intention
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration
Again, as per someone else's account that they were eyewitnesses or there were eyewitnesses. One can only trust.
_________________________________________________________________
I was referring to buddha but if it's jesus to you, excellent!! both teach that we walk the path. As before, what good is it to look for the vegetable seller or the farmer? Knowing the farmer or seller etc won't overcome your own hunger.
I still don't understand what is the salvation you talked about? You mentioned he's the way. What way? Be like him? Dress like him? Walk his path, right? Just like the metaphor I used earlier. What's the difference? Don't tell me it's okay to walk on the path left by jesus that is lit by his teachings and not okay the path left by the buddha that is lit by his dharma.
Just like Gautama Buddha foretelling his disciples about his passing. Right?
So, Jesus appeared to everyone at one place at the same time and ascended? "in the belly of the great fish for 3 days", are you for real?? Again, we weren't there. One can only trust. That's why we call it called faith.
You are trusting "the church's explanation", right? We weren't there. One can only trust.
Ok. So, where was he and what was he doing?
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Originally posted by zeus29:
And I trust buddha to have the right knowledge just like you trust jesus. Is there a problem?
There is, since both cannot be right at the same time in the same sense over the same issues. It is a problem of truth and logic. I do not have any problem with your choice to trust Buddha. -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
There is, since both cannot be right at the same time in the same sense over the same issues. It is a problem of truth and logic. I do not have any problem with your choice to trust Buddha.so, what's the problem or truth and logic?
Also,
BroInChrist - With all due respect, I think you digressed. Here's our earlier conversation.
What if creation is true or not? What does it change? What are the implications? We're still here. Suffering is still here. As explained by the Buddha, our suffering originates from our own attachment and aversion.
You believe in the creator, right? What are the implications? You're still here. You still suffer from ups and downs, attachment and aversion like all of us who don't believe/emphasize on the creator, don't you?
Your reason of finding the spider is to tell the doctor which spider had bitten you so he could give you the right anti-venom, right? What if the doctor is skillful enough and had went through the same thing and could identify all the symptoms and could gave you medicine accordingly without even looking for the spider. Do you take it or go looking for the spider? The spider is not going to give you an antidote, the doctor will.
How about what if you're kidnapped, made unconscious and later found yourself left in a forest? There's a footpath left by someone (the buddha) and lights (dharma) lighting the way. Do you walk the path or go searching for the kidnappers? As mentioned earlier, Gautama Buddha's human vessel was subjected to human conditions. Even though, his human vessel is no longer here, his dharma continue to lit the path. His teaching is very much alive and relevant even to this day. In his last moments, the buddha advised us to focus on the teaching rather than the person.
So, he showed the way, too. right? However, his approach is different as one can only go to heaven through jesus no matter how much good deeds one has done.
Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.
1. Right view
2. Right intention
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration
Again, as per someone else's account that they were eyewitnesses or there were eyewitnesses. One can only trust.
_________________________________________________________________
I was referring to buddha but if it's jesus to you, excellent!! both teach that we walk the path. As before, what good is it to look for the vegetable seller or the farmer? Knowing the farmer or seller etc won't overcome your own hunger.
I still don't understand what is the salvation you talked about? You mentioned he's the way. What way? Be like him? Dress like him? Walk his path, right? Just like the metaphor I used earlier. What's the difference? Don't tell me it's okay to walk on the path left by jesus that is lit by his teachings and not okay the path left by the buddha that is lit by his dharma.
Just like Gautama Buddha foretelling his disciples about his passing. Right?
So, Jesus appeared to everyone at one place at the same time and ascended? "in the belly of the great fish for 3 days", are you for real?? Again, we weren't there. One can only trust. That's why we call it called faith.
You are trusting "the church's explanation", right? We weren't there. One can only trust.
Ok. So, where was he and what was he doing?
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Originally posted by zeus29:
so, what's the problem or truth and logic?
Also,
BroInChrist - With all due respect, I think you digressed. Here's our earlier conversation.
What if creation is true or not? What does it change? What are the implications? We're still here. Suffering is still here. As explained by the Buddha, our suffering originates from our own attachment and aversion.
You believe in the creator, right? What are the implications? You're still here. You still suffer from ups and downs, attachment and aversion like all of us who don't believe/emphasize on the creator, don't you?
Your reason of finding the spider is to tell the doctor which spider had bitten you so he could give you the right anti-venom, right? What if the doctor is skillful enough and had went through the same thing and could identify all the symptoms and could gave you medicine accordingly without even looking for the spider. Do you take it or go looking for the spider? The spider is not going to give you an antidote, the doctor will.
How about what if you're kidnapped, made unconscious and later found yourself left in a forest? There's a footpath left by someone (the buddha) and lights (dharma) lighting the way. Do you walk the path or go searching for the kidnappers? As mentioned earlier, Gautama Buddha's human vessel was subjected to human conditions. Even though, his human vessel is no longer here, his dharma continue to lit the path. His teaching is very much alive and relevant even to this day. In his last moments, the buddha advised us to focus on the teaching rather than the person.
So, he showed the way, too. right? However, his approach is different as one can only go to heaven through jesus no matter how much good deeds one has done.
Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.
1. Right view
2. Right intention
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration
Again, as per someone else's account that they were eyewitnesses or there were eyewitnesses. One can only trust.
_________________________________________________________________
I was referring to buddha but if it's jesus to you, excellent!! both teach that we walk the path. As before, what good is it to look for the vegetable seller or the farmer? Knowing the farmer or seller etc won't overcome your own hunger.
I still don't understand what is the salvation you talked about? You mentioned he's the way. What way? Be like him? Dress like him? Walk his path, right? Just like the metaphor I used earlier. What's the difference? Don't tell me it's okay to walk on the path left by jesus that is lit by his teachings and not okay the path left by the buddha that is lit by his dharma.
Just like Gautama Buddha foretelling his disciples about his passing. Right?
So, Jesus appeared to everyone at one place at the same time and ascended? "in the belly of the great fish for 3 days", are you for real?? Again, we weren't there. One can only trust. That's why we call it called faith.
You are trusting "the church's explanation", right? We weren't there. One can only trust.
Ok. So, where was he and what was he doing?
1. It's a problem of truth AND logic. The law of non-contradiction.
2. Yes, suffering is still here. But not forever. The Bible teaches that God will put an end to all suffering and death. And God proved this by raising Jesus from the dead. Death could not hold Jesus. That's what the resurrection is all about. If Jesus died and remained dead, then He offered no hope at all. Just a record of good teachings that's all.
3. Again whether you physically go and look for the spide or not is irrelevant, the point is that you or the doctor can identify the CAUSE and thus the right CURE can be prescribed. That's the point I want to make, really. Was the cause irrelevant and does not matter at all? I am sure you would disagree.
4. As for kidnapped, at least I know the cause of why I was in the forest! I was kidnapped and then rendered unconscious and ended up in a forest. And if this is the condition I find myself to be in, this condition would also be the same for everyone else, including Buddha. He needs help as much as I do. But I do not see how this analogy is relevant at all to the question of whether there is a Creator God who caused the universe to exist.
5. That a teaching of some religious leader is still followed by adherents today cannot be used as a litmus test for truth. Yes, Buddha claimed to showed the way out of suffering and salvation into Nirvana state. But as I mentioned, the fact that he still suffered and died is different from Jesus who suffered, died AND rose again from the dead to show that suffering and death has no hold over Him.
6. Regarding the 8 Fold Path, can you 100% follow it in this life? How about two lifetimes? Or three? Like the 10 Commandments of the Bible, I think this 8 Fold Path is impossible to achieve. Do you know of anyone living who claimed to have met all of them from the time he was born?
7. It is also true that one can only trust the eyewitnesses accounts. Which is also why the Gospels are highly regarded because the events recorded were well within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. They were not written down centuries after the events. If you regard as reliable a document that was written down 500 years after the event by people who were not there, then how much more reliable should you regard a document that was written down within 50 years of the event by eyewitnesses themselves?
8. Are you then saying that it doesn't matter whether one follows the Buddha or Jesus? I don't think so. Both made exclusive claims and it would be watering down their teachings to say that it doesn't matter which "farmer or vegetable seller" you go to. Moreover, it would be simplistic and misleading to paint this issue as similar to satisfying one's hunger pangs.
9. The salvation I talked about was the delivery from the ultimate effects of sin, an eternal life in hell. And it is not about walking or dressing like Jesus did. That is mere conforming to outward appearance. The Bible talks about a transformation, a new creation.
10. If I were still alive at 80 years old, I would also be telling people of my impending death! But Jesus was about 33 years and spoke specifically about how He would be taken and killed and rose from the dead. Unusual claims, don't you think.
11. Where did you get the idea that Jesus was 3 days 3 nights in the belly of a fish? You have confused yourself. He was likening Himself to the OT prophet Jonah, that He would be dead and buried for 3 days and after that He would rise again. He was talking about the time frame.
12. Yes, we can only trust the sources we have. That's why it is called faith. But our faith is only as good as the OBJECT of our faith. You cannot put your faith in counterfeit money, but you can put your faith in real money which is backed by the government and legal tender.
I hope I have addressed most of your questions. I am enjoying this exchange.
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6. There were countless arahants from the time of Buddha till today who have perfected the 8 fold path.
You don't have to be perfect in the beginning, but when wisdom arises and eradicates the roots of passion, aggression and delusion, your 8 fold path is naturally perfected.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
1. It's a problem of truth AND logic. The law of non-contradiction.
Which is?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:2. Yes, suffering is still here. But not forever. The Bible teaches that God will put an end to all suffering and death. And God proved this by raising Jesus from the dead. Death could not hold Jesus. That's what the resurrection is all about. If Jesus died and remained dead, then He offered no hope at all. Just a record of good teachings that's all.
hence, we work on our suffering rather than waiting and hoping.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:3. Again whether you physically go and look for the spide or not is irrelevant, the point is that you or the doctor can identify the CAUSE and thus the right CURE can be prescribed. That's the point I want to make, really. Was the cause irrelevant and does not matter at all? I am sure you would disagree.
and buddha has indentified the cause and presribed the medicine. isn't it wise to take the cure?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:4. As for kidnapped, at least I know the cause of why I was in the forest! I was kidnapped and then rendered unconscious and ended up in a forest. And if this is the condition I find myself to be in, this condition would also be the same for everyone else, including Buddha. He needs help as much as I do. But I do not see how this analogy is relevant at all to the question of whether there is a Creator God who caused the universe to exist.
"at least I know the cause of why I was in the forest!" so, what good is it?
" And if this is the condition I find myself to be in, this condition would also be the same for everyone else, including Buddha. He needs help as much as I do." -> exactly! and he found the way out and showed it to others and that everyone else too can be like him!
"the question of whether there is a Creator God who caused the universe to exist." -> exactly! the question itself is irrelevant to us buddhists. So what if there is creator god or not? we're already here and we are in charge of our own destiny and we live our life to the fullest. no?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:5. That a teaching of some religious leader is still followed by adherents today cannot be used as a litmus test for truth. Yes, Buddha claimed to showed the way out of suffering and salvation into Nirvana state. But as I mentioned, the fact that he still suffered and died is different from Jesus who suffered, died AND rose again from the dead to show that suffering and death has no hold over Him.
what do you mean that he suffered? human vessel subject to human wear and tear. isn't that normal?
so, jesus didn't suffer when he was tormented by the soldiers?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:6. Regarding the 8 Fold Path, can you 100% follow it in this life? How about two lifetimes? Or three? Like the 10 Commandments of the Bible, I think this 8 Fold Path is impossible to achieve. Do you know of anyone living who claimed to have met all of them from the time he was born?
"impossible to achieve" to whose account?
Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.
1. Right view -> don't you see other people's view to see the bigger picutre before making decisions?
2. Right intention-> do you have unwholesome wishes for others?
3. Right speech -> do you deceit others?
4. Right action -> are you robbing/killing others?
5. Right livelihood -> are you robbing/killing/cheating others to earn your living?
6. Right effort -> don't you go all out and get things done?
7. Right mindfulness -> don't you know what you're doing and where you are?
8. Right concentration -> don;t you concentrate?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:7. It is also true that one can only trust the eyewitnesses accounts. Which is also why the Gospels are highly regarded because the events recorded were well within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. They were not written down centuries after the events. If you regard as reliable a document that was written down 500 years after the event by people who were not there, then how much more reliable should you regard a document that was written down within 50 years of the event by eyewitnesses themselves?
dude, did you read about the four reliances earlier? buddhists don't take everything literally. we pay more attention to the message.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:8. Are you then saying that it doesn't matter whether one follows the Buddha or Jesus? I don't think so. Both made exclusive claims and it would be watering down their teachings to say that it doesn't matter which "farmer or vegetable seller" you go to. Moreover, it would be simplistic and misleading to paint this issue as similar to satisfying one's hunger pangs.
yes, i'm saying that it doesn't matter. why should it?
"it doesn't matter which "farmer or vegetable seller" you go to" -> does it? does it matter to you which exact cow you got your milk from? which exact chicken that laid the eggs?
"it would be simplistic " -> must it be complicated?
"misleading" -> what is?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:9. The salvation I talked about was the delivery from the ultimate effects of sin, an eternal life in hell. And it is not about walking or dressing like Jesus did. That is mere conforming to outward appearance. The Bible talks about a transformation, a new creation.
transformation of the mind? sounds like buddhist teachings to me.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:10. If I were still alive at 80 years old, I would also be telling people of my impending death! But Jesus was about 33 years and spoke specifically about how He would be taken and killed and rose from the dead. Unusual claims, don't you think.
what about those who died at 108 years old or those at 12 years old etc? also, i don;t think it's unusual. it was just forthcoming. if one goes out in the open and shout anti-govt slogans, one can expect to be arrested and tried. I'm sure you've read about judas conspiracy theory right? What if there could be some truth in it?
also, in modern setting, i'm sure you already know about the aum shinrikyo cult in japan. since, the leader had predicted a doomsday, the inner circle had to make it happen to sustain the faith of other members. right?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:11. Where did you get the idea that Jesus was 3 days 3 nights in the belly of a fish? You have confused yourself. He was likening Himself to the OT prophet Jonah, that He would be dead and buried for 3 days and after that He would rise again. He was talking about the time frame.
who said jesus? i think "you have confused yourself" :) also, really? 3 days in the belly of a great fish?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:12. Yes, we can only trust the sources we have. That's why it is called faith. But our faith is only as good as the OBJECT of our faith. You cannot put your faith in counterfeit money, but you can put your faith in real money which is backed by the government and legal tender.
really? i was told that the notes printed have 3 copies. so how?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Your point is noted but if I were to respond it would be to deviate far from the original point of the analogy. Point being that an effective cure would mean to know the cause or being able to identify the correct cause.
Your point is also noted but if I were to respond it would be to deviate far from the original point of the analogy too. Point being that a doctor who knows the cause or being able to identify the correct cause may not always come up with an effective cure. esp in modern day medical industires. they will route and make you take more medicines esp private clinics and practitioner so they can make more money. moeny? churches understand what is money, right? -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
6. There were countless arahants from the time of Buddha till today who have perfected the 8 fold path.
You don't have to be perfect in the beginning, but when wisdom arises and eradicates the roots of passion, aggression and delusion, your 8 fold path is naturally perfected.
The point I was also driving at is whether you know of anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death. Since you said there were countless people having done so from 500BC till today, I suppose it would not be difficult for you to drop some names of historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
The point I was also driving at is whether you know of anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death. Since you said there were countless people having done so from 500BC till today, I suppose it would not be difficult for you to drop some names of historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?
"historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?" ->
firstly, "observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?", really? are you for real, broinchrist? do you know how to speak right out from your mom's womb or know science, maths, etc? seriously, dude? is this the level of mentality i'm actually having exchange with?
secondly, mind you, as mentioned earlier, not just historical, present and future too. people can follow the noble eight paths.
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Originally posted by zeus29:
"historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?" ->
firstly, "observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?", really? are you for real, broinchrist? do you know how to speak right out from your mom's womb or know science, maths, etc? seriously, dude? is this the level of mentality i'm actually having exchange with?
secondly, mind you, as mentioned earlier, not just historical, present and future too. people can follow the noble eight paths.
I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me. Try to exercise more calm please.
The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk. That you would even think of this might perhaps well reflect the level of mentality I'm actually dealing with! ; )
I am not saying that people cannot follow the 8 fold path. I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me. Try to exercise more calm please.
The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk. That you would even think of this might perhaps well reflect the level of mentality I'm actually dealing with! ; )
I am not saying that people cannot follow the 8 fold path. I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes.
Even if they have perfectly followed it, i do not think it is of buddhist nature that the person announces that he has perfectly followed it. Henceforth, i doubt there will really be documentation on that.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me. Try to exercise more calm please.
The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk. That you would even think of this might perhaps well reflect the level of mentality I'm actually dealing with! ; )
I am not saying that people cannot follow the 8 fold path. I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes.
"I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me." -> sorry, i can't sense what you're sensing but are you kidding me? i'm having a hell lot of fun here, no pun intended ;). that's why i check so often. i think many here can tell.
There are just so many open questions and your replies only create more open questions. also, it's quite interesting to see from your point of view and understand your misconceptions about buddhism. i'm sure many out there have the same miscomceptions about buddhism ie praying to statues etc.
"ad hominem" -> by asking questions to your replies? but there's nothing personal involved. just to recap its definition which i trust you already know prior to using the word. Definition of AD HOMINEM –
1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
I doubt I fit any of the 2 definitions base on my limited knowledge. Pretty much direct questions-answers-questions to me.
"The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk." -> and yet you said, "anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death." so, you're suggesting observing the 8 fold path since birth, no? you wrote a specific timeline which is "100% from birth to death" and then said "That you would even think of this ". so, pray tell how else should one have thought of it?
"I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes." -> and I'm saying why not? from my earlier post which you haven't responded.
Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.
1. Right view -> don't you see other people's view to see the bigger picutre before making decisions?
2. Right intention-> do you have unwholesome wishes for others?
3. Right speech -> do you deceit others?
4. Right action -> are you robbing/killing others?
5. Right livelihood -> are you robbing/killing/cheating others to earn your living?
6. Right effort -> don't you go all out and get things done?
7. Right mindfulness -> don't you know what you're doing and where you are?
8. Right concentration -> don;t you concentrate?
Eightfold path says right view, right speech etc. to set the context and us to fill in the contents. For example, lets say I'm vegetarian. Today I eat choy sam, tomorrow mushroom, the following day broccoli. All vegetarian. What's perfect vegetarian?
on a different note, you still haven't responded to my earlier post about jesus's lost years." So, where was he and what was he doing? "
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Originally posted by zeus29:
"I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me." -> i can't sense what you're sensing but are you kidding me? i'm having a hell lot of fun here, no pun intended ;). that's why i check so often. i think many here can tell. and there are so many open questions and your replies just create more open questions. also, it's so interesting to see from your point of view and understand misconceptions about buddhism. i'm sure many out there have the same miscomceptions about buddhism ie praying to statues etc.
"ad hominem" -> by asking questions to your replies? there's no person involved, right? ;)
"The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk." -> and yet you said, "anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death." so, you're suggesting observing the 8 fold path since birth, no? you wrote a specific timeline that's "birth to death" and then said "That you would even think of this ". so, how else should one have thought it?
"I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes." -> and we're saying why not? from my earlier post which you haven't responded.
Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.
1. Right view -> don't you see other people's view to see the bigger picutre before making decisions?
2. Right intention-> do you have unwholesome wishes for others?
3. Right speech -> do you deceit others?
4. Right action -> are you robbing/killing others?
5. Right livelihood -> are you robbing/killing/cheating others to earn your living?
6. Right effort -> don't you go all out and get things done?
7. Right mindfulness -> don't you know what you're doing and where you are?
8. Right concentration -> don;t you concentrate?
Eightfold path says right view, right speech etc. to set the context and us to fill in the contents. For example, lets say I'm vegetarian. Today I eat choy sam, tomorrow mushroom, the following day broccoli. All vegetarian. What's perfect vegetarian?
on a different note, you still haven't responded to my earlier post about jesus's lost years." So, where was he and what was he doing? "
About Jesus' lost years, the following video clip :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9w-xJfSOyc
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
The point I was also driving at is whether you know of anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death. Since you said there were countless people having done so from 500BC till today, I suppose it would not be difficult for you to drop some names of historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?
First of all, it is not so possible to observe the 8 fold path from birth because you were born ignorant. However from the point you start practicing, you are practicing to overcome ignorance, and when you are fully liberated then the three unwholesome roots or poisons of passions, aggression and delusion will be uprooted. Then from that point on your noble 8 fold path will be flawless and accomplished.
Examples? Buddha, of course, for one. His countless arahant disciples numbering thousands or tens of thousands, of which I cannot name all right now because there are too many, but you may want to check out his top ten disciples who are arahants - e.g. sariputta, mogallana, mahakassapa, etc etc. -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me. Try to exercise more calm please.
The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk. That you would even think of this might perhaps well reflect the level of mentality I'm actually dealing with! ; )
I am not saying that people cannot follow the 8 fold path. I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes.
If you practice the dharma, attain wisdom, eradicate the three poisons, then you are already freed from passion, aggression and delusion thus your noble eightfold path is already accomplished and you have attained the goal of liberation.
From that point on, if you are an arahant, you do not need to be endlessly reborn in samsara "for countless lifetimes" since you already attained nirvana.
From the point you are an arahant, it is impossible for you to give rise to any passion, attachment, craving, lust, aggression, hatred, violence, fear, jealousy, pride, delusion, etc etc. Not one single thought of it is possible anymore, for your entire life, yes. One also completely eradicates any conceit of 'I am', any sense of self is completely eradicated via wisdom.
It may sound like an impossible task, well it is truly impossible, if one is trying to force them out of mind by suppression. A Buddhist does not force afflictive emotions out of mind by suppression. We practice vipassana meditation to gain insight into the impermanent, unsatisfactory, non-self and empty nature of everything, and this wisdom leads to dispassion and release of our defilements. When the roots of defilements and delusion are eradicated, our afflictions are also overcome from the root.
i.e. we do not merely trim off the leaves (treat the symptoms) but uproot the disease from its roots (i.e. ignorance, delusion) so that it will never grow again ever. -
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
About Jesus' lost years, the following video clip :
Govt of India Documentry on Jesus in Kashmir !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9w-xJfSOyc
Yup I mentioned Tibet and India earlier but he disagreed.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
We practice vipassana meditation to gain insight into the impermanent, unsatisfactory, non-self and empty nature of everything, and this wisdom leads to dispassion and release of our defilements. When the roots of defilements and delusion are eradicated, our afflictions are also overcome from the root.
i.e. we do not merely trim off the leaves (treat the symptoms) but uproot the disease from its roots (i.e. ignorance, delusion) so that it will never grow again ever.Totally agreed. It's said that prince siddharta gautama achieved enlightenment through vipassana which he discovered and through it, he managed to removed all his sancarras.
I highly recommend one to learn about this technique. It's completely free. Lodging and meals are all paid for by previous students. All that the course ask of one is one's time and perseverance not to quit during the course.
www.dhamma.org
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To add in a little to the vigorous discussion, all Buddhas have already conquered suffering and death prior to them appearing as humans to us.
All Buddhas to be, or highly enlightened Bodhisattvas, descend from their heavenly abodes to undergo their last rebirths as a human being and achieve full awakening of their Buddha nature due to timely fruition of countless past lives' worth of spiritual diligence.
As mentioned by one commenter in this thread or maybe other threads, all Buddhas can choose to live as long as they desire, as long as they see that there are still sentient beings of their era who will benefit from spiritual guidance by a Buddha in human form. Generally speaking, a Buddha will not choose to live exceedingly longer than the average life span of sentient beings in his era.
On the main topic of blood sacrifice, other than folk or occult practices, I can't help but to think of Hari Raya Haji, where sheep, goats and cows are mass-slaughtered on this particular day to commemorate Prophet Ibrahim's readiness to sacrifice his own flesh and blood. In the Buddhist context, blood sacrifices for any kind of living being are regarded as unwholesome actions, but generally Buddhists will not go about pointing this out, saying the Buddha said so, unless the questioner is sincerely interested in understanding the Buddhist point of view.
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I wonder if broinchrist confused 8fold path with the 8 precepts.
The Eight Precepts:
1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
3. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.
4. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.
5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.
6. I undertake the precept to refrain from eating at the forbidden time (i.e., after noon).
7. I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing, singing, music, going to see entertainments, wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics.
8. I undertake the precept to refrain from lying on a high or luxurious sleeping place.
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Usually, a lay person is encouraged to take the basic 5 precepts not necessary the 8 precepts.
The five precepts are:
1. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking life.
2. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given.
3. I undertake the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct.
4. I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.
5. I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness.
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for me, i much prefer precepts to the ten commandments. notice the "i undertake the precept to ....." rather than "thou shalt not ......."
i wonder which approach one prefers - a doctor telling one that smoking is harmful and advise one to refrain from doing so OR government telling one must not / can not smoke? :)
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Originally posted by zeus29:
I wonder if broinchrist confused 8fold path with the 8 precepts.
haha...possible... :)
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