THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION DEBATE
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Taking some posts after mine:
Hinduism was used in relation to this remark //"Buddhism is evolved out of Hinduism."// made by <TrueReppuzan> .
I made a long statement, not a short phrase:
“Looking at early Buddhism, the Indus Valley civilization, the Buddha’s interactions with Brahmins, his teachers or gurus in the 6 years of wandering, his knowledge of Vedas and some doctrines, I can safely say that even without deep knowledge of Hinduism, Buddhism is influenced by it.”
In case people here do not know – Vedas and Brahmanism is the fore-runner of Hinduism. My learned friend who studied Hinduism had kept his noble silence here! And if you read carefully – ‘Indus Valley civilization’, ‘interactions with Brahmins’, ‘knowledge of Vedas and its doctrines’, there can be no doubt that the Buddha’s teaching was influenced by Hinduism - the successor of vedic-brahmanism.
Picking the one short phrase “Buddhism is influenced by it.” after the end of the contextual paragraph is really shallow. I can see some are very good in picking pickles to side-track their disagreement – pathetic pedantry.
That the Buddha was well versed in vedic teachings were demonstrated by his ability to handle questions from Brahmins as well as his objections to some practices such as caste. However, ideology like karma, rebirth and past lives were vedic and Buddha had used them to formulate his own concepts. By influence, it does not mean copy wholesale!
It is fine by me if you don’t like the word ‘hate’. To me, “hate to admit” simple means strong desire not to admit.
Going back to square 1, no one has commented or ask for clarification in my two significant posts in which I laid the context of why Buddhism began as a philosophy and became a religion. Please search yourself and tell me how empty you are!
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This is an open question: Tibetan Buddhism (Vajrayana) subscribe to the 'idea' of reincarnation. Where does this 'idea' originate?
What is the Mahayana's position on reincarnation?
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
This is an open question: Tibetan Buddhism (Vajrayana) subscribe to the 'idea' of reincarnation. Where does this 'idea' originate?
What is the Mahayana's position on reincarnation?
I am a Vajrayana practitioner, I do not suscribe to the notion of reincarnation, but in rebirth.
But it is very common for many believe that Tibetans believe in reincarnation, especially in the phenomena of tulkus. Many people are unable to differentiate the difference in this regard unless one investigates further or are told the difference. I am the same, as I follow conventional notions I inherited.
Vajrayana Buddhism is also Mahayana, can be considered a subset of Mahayana.
The Mahayana view is the Buddhist view.
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
Taking some posts after mine:
Hinduism was used in relation to this remark //"Buddhism is evolved out of Hinduism."// made by <TrueReppuzan> .
I made a long statement, not a short phrase:
“Looking at early Buddhism, the Indus Valley civilization, the Buddha’s interactions with Brahmins, his teachers or gurus in the 6 years of wandering, his knowledge of Vedas and some doctrines, I can safely say that even without deep knowledge of Hinduism, Buddhism is influenced by it.”
In case people here do not know – Vedas and Brahmanism is the fore-runner of Hinduism. My learned friend who studied Hinduism had kept his noble silence here! And if you read carefully – ‘Indus Valley civilization’, ‘interactions with Brahmins’, ‘knowledge of Vedas and its doctrines’, there can be no doubt that the Buddha’s teaching was influenced by Hinduism - the successor of vedic-brahmanism.
Picking the one short phrase “Buddhism is influenced by it.” after the end of the contextual paragraph is really shallow. I can see some are very good in picking pickles to side-track their disagreement – pathetic pedantry.
That the Buddha was well versed in vedic teachings were demonstrated by his ability to handle questions from Brahmins as well as his objections to some practices such as caste. However, ideology like karma, rebirth and past lives were vedic and Buddha had used them to formulate his own concepts. By influence, it does not mean copy wholesale!
It is fine by me if you don’t like the word ‘hate’. To me, “hate to admit” simple means strong desire not to admit.
Going back to square 1, no one has commented or ask for clarification in my two significant posts in which I laid the context of why Buddhism began as a philosophy and became a religion. Please search yourself and tell me how empty you are!
The Indian subcontinent has a highly developed ideologies in place during Buddha's time,which formed the basis for the Lord Buddha to contemplate. As the ideologies were unsatisfactory, other concepts and views are needed.
Now, the concepts of Anatta or No Self is diametrically different from the other ideologies, also concept of karma are not quite the same, since there is assertion of no self to begin with. As for the philosophy, it is necessary to explain the concepts in the already existing vocabluary and in context of the current philosophies. Certain concepts are similar but not the same also goals are different.
[ Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] It is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.[3] The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".[4][5][6]] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy
Organised religion for Buddhist begins when you need house the Sangha and when you need the laity as devotees to support the monastic community. If you are an ascetic, is asking for alms considered an act of religious activity?
[Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect. Most religions have organized behaviors, including clerical hierarchies, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations,funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture.
The development of religion has taken different forms in different cultures. Some religions place an emphasis on belief, while others emphasize practice. Some religions focus on the subjective experience of the religious individual, while others consider the activities of the religious community to be most important. Some religions claim to be universal, believing their laws and cosmology to be binding for everyone, while others are intended to be practiced only by a closely defined or localized group. In many places religion has been associated with public institutions such as education, hospitals, thefamily, government, and political hierarchies.
Some academics studying the subject have divided religions into three broad categories: world religions, a term which refers to transcultural,international faiths; indigenous religions, which refers to smaller, culture-specific or nation-specific religious groups; and new religious movements, which refers to recently developed faiths.[2] One modern academic theory of religion, social constructionism, says that religion is a modern concept that suggests all spiritual practice and worship follows a model similar to the Abrahamic religions as an orientation system that helps to interpret reality and define human beings,[3] and thus religion, as a concept, has been applied inappropriately to non-Western cultures that are not based upon such systems, or in which these systems are a substantially simpler construct]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion -
What I No Stupid failed to relate is WHY Hinduism influencing Buddhism is the reason he believed HOW Buddhism began as a philosophy and turned into religion.
The claim was challenged but no further reasons was given but points to 2 past posts that he held high regard that if anyone fails to address those, he believes he's right or others are just "empty".
He was however reasonable enough to soften his stance after AEN posted about studying Hinduism but that contradicts to his reason ("The best way to ascertain for sure is to learn or understand Hinduism and make the comparison") to whatever he believes.
The way he calls out people being pedantic relates to his resistance to correction or inability to argue with propriety. I've done my fair share, I concluded it'd be inefficient to carry on my study on this issue.
Knowledge is good, ignorance is bad. Half knowledge is but the common mistakes people make.
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Originally posted by Weychin:
I am a Vajrayana practitioner, I do not suscribe to the notion of reincarnation, but in rebirth.
But it is very common for many believe that Tibetans believe in reincarnation, especially in the phenomena of tulkus. Many people are unable to differentiate the difference in this regard unless one investigates further or are told the difference. I am the same, as I follow conventional notions I inherited.
Vajrayana Buddhism is also Mahayana, can be considered a subset of Mahayana.
The Mahayana view is the Buddhist view.
Thank you for your sincerity. It is a breath of fresh air, from Tibet?
I understand that rebirth as taught by the Buddha is not the same as reincarnation nor it is the same as similar rebirth concept before the Buddha's.
You may not subscribe to reincarnation but Tibetan Buddhism certainly do or belief in reincarnation, if not by the ordinary folks then it is the lamas or rinpoche. Where did they take this belief in reincarnation from?
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Originally posted by Weychin:
The Indian subcontinent has a highly developed ideologies in place during Buddha's time,which formed the basis for the Lord Buddha to contemplate. As the ideologies were unsatisfactory, other concepts and views are needed.
Now, the concepts of Anatta or No Self is diametrically different from the other ideologies, also concept of karma are not quite the same, since there is assertion of no self to begin with. As for the philosophy, it is necessary to explain the concepts in the already existing vocabluary and in context of the current philosophies. Certain concepts are similar but not the same also goals are different.
[ Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] It is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.[3] The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".[4][5][6]] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy
Organised religion for Buddhist begins when you need house the Sangha and when you need the laity as devotees to support the monastic community. If you are an ascetic, is asking for alms considered an act of religious activity?
[Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect. Most religions have organized behaviors, including clerical hierarchies, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations,funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture.
The development of religion has taken different forms in different cultures. Some religions place an emphasis on belief, while others emphasize practice. Some religions focus on the subjective experience of the religious individual, while others consider the activities of the religious community to be most important. Some religions claim to be universal, believing their laws and cosmology to be binding for everyone, while others are intended to be practiced only by a closely defined or localized group. In many places religion has been associated with public institutions such as education, hospitals, thefamily, government, and political hierarchies.
Some academics studying the subject have divided religions into three broad categories: world religions, a term which refers to transcultural,international faiths; indigenous religions, which refers to smaller, culture-specific or nation-specific religious groups; and new religious movements, which refers to recently developed faiths.[2] One modern academic theory of religion, social constructionism, says that religion is a modern concept that suggests all spiritual practice and worship follows a model similar to the Abrahamic religions as an orientation system that helps to interpret reality and define human beings,[3] and thus religion, as a concept, has been applied inappropriately to non-Western cultures that are not based upon such systems, or in which these systems are a substantially simpler construct]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReligionThank you for the definitions on philosophy and religion. They are what ordinary people would take to mean. I did not give the definition for religion in my two posts on (by now you shd know) the most objectionable statement in the Buddhist world. Some pathetic pedantric asked but he/she couldn't google.
Every thinker (or philosopher) has ideology/ies. Some are quite similar to another while some are unique. Can't be that every one has the same concept, ideology, or philosophy. I do NOT think Buddhism is Hinduism but I DO think Hinduism (as successor or Vedic-Brahmanism) has some influence on Buddhism, as evident in similar concepts and beliefs.
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
What I No Stupid failed to relate is WHY Hinduism influencing Buddhism is the reason he believed HOW Buddhism began as a philosophy and turned into religion.
The claim was challenged but no further reasons was given but points to 2 past posts that he held high regard that if anyone fails to address those, he believes he's right or others are just "empty".
He was however reasonable enough to soften his stance after AEN posted about studying Hinduism but that contradicts to his reason ("The best way to ascertain for sure is to learn or understand Hinduism and make the comparison") to whatever he believes.
The way he calls out people being pedantic relates to his resistance to correction or inability to argue with propriety. I've done my fair share, I concluded it'd be inefficient to carry on my study on this issue.
Knowledge is good, ignorance is bad. Half knowledge is but the common mistakes people make.
Besides being a pathetic pedantric, you are also a pickle picker. You have not stated specifically which part/portion of my two posts you couldn't get into your head. I take it that your head is empty.
I will leave AEN to repond to my reply. However, it seems to me you need to rely on AEN. Do you have legs to stand on or a mind of your own? Oh, I forgot... your's is empty.
My stance has been always to present a point of view supported by facts, reasons and logic. In fact, I am quite hard about my stance. I stand firm on "Buddhism began as a philosophy and became a religion."
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The true religion is Islam. The message is simple. Prophets were sent to spread the message of worshipping God, and not his creations. Islam was in the form of Judaism and Christianity once however presently, we believe the message have been altered in the hands of human beings thus explaining why the Quran was revealed through our final Prophet. Whatever we do is for the sake of God alone and not any of his creations even the prophets. Our relation is directly with God and not through his creation then to God. Simple.
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Extracted from : http://islamworld.net/docs/true.html
The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah" and anyone who does so is termed a "Muslim", The word also implies "peace" which is the natural consequence of total submission to the will of Allah. Hence, it was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) I in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form.
Islam is the religion which was given to Adam, the first man and the first prophet of Allah, and it was the religion of all the prophets sent by Allah to mankind. The name of God's religion lslam was not decided upon by later generations of man. It was chosen by Allah Himself and clearly mentioned in His final revelation to man. In the final book of divine revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah states the following:
"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)
"Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:67)
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Double post
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Double post
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
Thank you for your sincerity. It is a breath of fresh air, from Tibet?
I understand that rebirth as taught by the Buddha is not the same as reincarnation nor it is the same as similar rebirth concept before the Buddha's.
You may not subscribe to reincarnation but Tibetan Buddhism certainly do or belief in reincarnation, if not by the ordinary folks then it is the lamas or rinpoche. Where did they take this belief in reincarnation from?
Theravada rebirth is exactly the same as Tibetan reincarnation. Both posits past life and afterlife. Both denies the existence of a soul due to the doctrine of no-soul or anatta, and thus different from hinduism's reincarnation of souls. The terms "rebirth" and "reincarnation" are simply used interchangeably by the tibetans. So the terms must be understood in context. Where did it originate? From Buddha's time of enlightenment, where one of his three knowledges was that he recalled 91 aeons of his past life. -
Originally posted by Weychin:
I am a Vajrayana practitioner, I do not suscribe to the notion of reincarnation, but in rebirth.
But it is very common for many believe that Tibetans believe in reincarnation, especially in the phenomena of tulkus. Many people are unable to differentiate the difference in this regard unless one investigates further or are told the difference. I am the same, as I follow conventional notions I inherited.
Vajrayana Buddhism is also Mahayana, can be considered a subset of Mahayana.
The Mahayana view is the Buddhist view.
//I do not suscribe to the notion of reincarnation, but in rebirth.//Is it because the term ‘reincarnation’ implies a fixed entity or a soul that is reborn rather than a ‘stream of consciousness’ that takes on a new form as in ‘rebirth’?
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Originally posted by Weychin:
I am a Vajrayana practitioner, I do not suscribe to the notion of reincarnation, but in rebirth.
But it is very common for many believe that Tibetans believe in reincarnation, especially in the phenomena of tulkus. Many people are unable to differentiate the difference in this regard unless one investigates further or are told the difference. I am the same, as I follow conventional notions I inherited.
Vajrayana Buddhism is also Mahayana, can be considered a subset of Mahayana.
The Mahayana view is the Buddhist view.
actually, all buddhists be it theravada or mahayana actually believe in reincarnation if by that you mean past and future lives. The only difference between buddhism and hinduism is that past and future lives is explained as a process of causal continuity in buddhism, and in hinduism the passing on of a soul entity. There is no problem stating that the 14th dalai lama is the incarnation 13th and 5th dalai lama, as long as you understand that it is simply a causal continuity as a relative truth and empty of any self ultimately. -
Omg even muslims come in to share Islam.
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Originally posted by Yui Hirasawa:
Omg even muslims come in to share Islam.
No wonder AEN needs more manpower to moderate this forum. Moderator of 3 main religions. Sounds great to me.
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I was surprised as the muslims I know do not share their faith around. Suddenly one muslim come in and share.
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
Besides being a pathetic pedantric, you are also a pickle picker. You have not stated specifically which part/portion of my two posts you couldn't get into your head. I take it that your head is empty.
I will leave AEN to repond to my reply. However, it seems to me you need to rely on AEN. Do you have legs to stand on or a mind of your own? Oh, I forgot... your's is empty.
My stance has been always to present a point of view supported by facts, reasons and logic. In fact, I am quite hard about my stance. I stand firm on "Buddhism began as a philosophy and became a religion."
I don't even know AEN... would he be reliable?
Senpai does it again, throwing ad hominems... No facts, reason or logic to support his claim "Buddhism began as a philosophy and became a religion."
Its as good as saying "...because I say so..." and "NoU!". The burden of proof is yet again on senpai. "If you cannot explain it in simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein.
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
I don't even know AEN... would he be reliable?
Senpai does it again, throwing ad hominems... No facts, reason or logic to support his claim "Buddhism began as a philosophy and became a religion."
Its as good as saying "...because I say so..." and "NoU!". The burden of proof is yet again on senpai. "If you cannot explain it in simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein.
hahaha, you don't know AEN and you don't know whether he is reliable yet you rely on his post to back you?
Common, don't be pickle picker, tell me exactly which part/portion of my two posts you have difficulty getting into your empty head. I will be happy to drill it.
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This piece was forwarded to me, no source acknowledged:
Rebirth vs. Reincarnation
Although these terms are often used interchangeably, there is a significant conceptual difference between the two. On the whole, Buddhists believe in rebirth while Hindus, Jains, and some Christians believe in reincarnation. Strictly speaking, reincarnation means the assumption of another body by a permanent, eternal self (the Hindu notion of atman or the Christian notion of soul). Most Buddhists do not believe in a permanent self (anatman or anatta, without enduring self) but believe human consciousness (the "I" or self) dissolves at death and that only a subtle mindstream remains. The mindstream carries with it karmic imprints from prior lives (but not memories and emotions associated with prior lives, unless the person is a highly developed spiritual practitioner, in which case reincarnation is possible) and it is this subtle mindstream that conjoins with a new life-form after death. Thus, rebirth does not mean an identifiable human being assuming a new human body. Moreover, in Buddhism, rebirth is not always accomplished in human form. Depending on karmic circumstances, a human being can be reborn as an animal or as a being in any of the upper or lower realms.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
No wonder AEN needs more manpower to moderate this forum. Moderator of 3 main religions. Sounds great to me.
Being so out of the loop for a while, it certainly is bewildering for me to come back to the forum and notice the broad, broad scopes of discussions of late. Even cuter is the fact that unbeknownst to me, I've been kept under surveillance for being a closet [insert name of adherent of another religion]
@moderators: looks like you will be busy for a while.
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
hahaha, you don't know AEN and you don't know whether he is reliable yet you rely on his post to back you?
Common, don't be pickle picker, tell me exactly which part/portion of my two posts you have difficulty getting into your empty head. I will be happy to drill it.
When did I use his post to back me? Your two posts that you held so high a regard is not saying anything to back your claims. No reason, no logic. So again how "Buddhism began as a philosophy and became a religion"? Or why your understanding to Hinduism makes you believe its a reason to believe so?
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To Yui Hirasawa...
What's the point of knowledge if it's not shared right? There is nothing wrong with me sharing information about my faith. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Peace
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Originally posted by pious.peace:
To Yui Hirasawa...
What's the point of knowledge if it's not shared right? There is nothing wrong with me sharing information about my faith. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Peace
You are welcome to post your comments here “regardless of religions or beliefs as long as there are no promotion of Non-Buddhism materials, products, or religions/spiritual practices unless it is simply the discussion of these practices in relation to Buddhism.”….. See rule 7 under Rules and Regulations.