Weychin

4 Aug 11, 15:51

Originally posted by I No Stupid:

Your post may not require a respond from me as it does not appear to be a specific reply. I take the 'you' as referring to my posts unless I am mistaken. I can read between the lines.

Firstly, the schisms were Buddhist ones, so all yanas have the same core teachings or root. In the same vein, different Christian or Muslim denominations have the same basic essence. They came about thru charismatic founders and their followers and subsequent organised institution. One thing is for sure – the schisms were disagreements within the original family resulting in breakaways, each having its own stroke, kick and textbook.

I see one Buddha and not many buddhas for a simple reason – the historical Buddha is unique. The many buddhas are aspirations of individuals aiming to be like the Buddha. These aspirations are grasping. I also see bodhisattvas like Catholic saints – embodiment of certain qualities or perfections. Trouble is – they become objects of devotion by the masses who built shrines for them. I cannot see how ‘blessings’ will help me in my path towards liberation. Does it mean I need to ask for divine favour, approval, encouragement or gift? And deity practice is basically seeking divine help, intervention, favour, and the like. If one wants to practice compassion, go do volunteer work in nursing homes, stand up against social injustice, fight poverty, not go to temple and make offering to Quanyin for example. If one wants to practice wisdom, join in these debates!

My mind is united not divided because I don’t see two ways about things, the ‘not here, not there’ kind of stuff. Also, what I said or commented are not imaginations because what I commented are what I see. Contrary to your mistaken notion “your views created your personality” – my personality precedes my views. That is, if I am not courageous, would I express my views?

Also, I didn’t demonise anything that I have disagreed so far. For sure, I didn’t call Mahayanist or Theravadan or Vajrayanist or bodhisattvas or little buddhas demons or devils. There are people who disagree with my views or don't accept them and I never say they demonise! Be mindful of this.

As to American evangelism, I am far from it. I have an aversion about Christian evangelism, so do you say I am defiled because of this aversion?

I have seen in many forums where the party who disagreed was labelled as ‘disrespectful’ but you have taken it to the next level – ‘demonise’ and ‘denigration’ and ‘ill-feeling’. To me, a disagreement is a disagreement. You have not convinced me why I should agree with you. Instead, you accused me of ‘demonising’, ‘denigrating’ and having ‘ill will’ – this is mischievous and unbecoming of one who took 20 yrs to find refuge.

As to the analogies you mentioned, I don’t get what you are trying to say. Suffice to say, if one experienced backache, one would be in a better position to understand and empathise with another sufferer. As far as the Noble Truth is concerned, ‘existence is dukkha’ is not an issue anywhere here in this forum. And I don’t see the need to emphasize that one must experience suffering in order to know suffering. Empathy is another matter.

Your post may not require a respond from me as it does not appear to be a specific reply. I take the 'you' as referring to my posts unless I am mistaken. I can read between the lines.

Yes, need'nt had make a reply, but I have an inkling you would! Not many would be surprised!

Firstly, the schisms were Buddhist ones, so all yanas have the same core teachings or root. In the same vein, different Christian or Muslim denominations have the same basic essence. They came about thru charismatic founders and their followers and subsequent organised institution. One thing is for sure – the schisms were disagreements within the original family resulting in breakaways, each having its own stroke, kick and textbook.

I see one Buddha and not many buddhas for a simple reason – the historical Buddha is unique. The many buddhas are aspirations of individuals aiming to be like the Buddha. These aspirations are grasping. I also see bodhisattvas like Catholic saints – embodiment of certain qualities or perfections. Trouble is – they become objects of devotion by the masses who built shrines for them. I cannot see how ‘blessings’ will help me in my path towards liberation. Does it mean I need to ask for divine favour, approval, encouragement or gift? And deity practice is basically seeking divine help, intervention, favour, and the like.

You have however, seemed to have forgotten the significance of core beliefs, the ease that people settle into the belief of Self , Soul and by association Creator, or God. It is so easy to fall back on core beliefs, inherited, inculcated, indoctrinated, or otherwise, in times of uncertainty and unease to seek higher powers. As we grew out of our reliance of on higher powers of our parents . we seek someone or something that is potentially more potent, omnipotent, that is.

If one wants to practice compassion, go do volunteer work in nursing homes, stand up against social injustice, fight poverty, not go to temple and make offering to Quanyin for example.

You make the presumption that compassion is homegeneous and all pervading.However, we do contain the seed, or potential. Two key aspect of Buddhism is Loving kindness( Metta) and Compassion(Karuna), without it, Buddhism is only an academical subject, a mere philosophy.How many times have I seen the strawberry generation being "coerced" to engage in charity works. Without strong aspiration, compassion activities cannot endure and quickly becomes jaded. It is for all a lot people,who, in the discourse of their lives, are indifferent and lack empathy, that what this practice is for. The core belief to up look for a omnipotent power is strong. To effectively discharge our compassionate engagements, one need aspiration(compassion) and helpful ability. For compassion to be arisen, we need to be able to have loving kindness, empathy for the suffering. Helpful ability is the wisdom, and available resources available to one. Helpful abilities are not equal, but we can have this aspiration, a practice of selflessness.

If one wants to practice wisdom, join in these debates!

My mind is united not divided because I don’t see two ways about things, the ‘not here, not there’ kind of stuff.

Debates is to raise awareness and the ability to discern , if there is a genuine wish to share and foster understanding. But when it is to assuage one's ego, and to do one up against ones' opponent, it becomes a contest of personality and will. Perhaps wisdom may arise it must appear as later hindsight, with experience, but that is not a given. Knowing certain facts is not wisdom, it is the knowing of phenomena, the right views, non clinging and the maturity of how one work with the knowledge. Without emotional maturity, one cannot be considered wise.

Contrary to your mistaken notion “your views created your personality” – my personality precedes my views. That is, if I am not courageous, would I express my views?

Self View reinforce personality, personality reinforce self views, I do not have a problem with that, do you?

The similarities between courageous and foolhardliness is the absence of fear. One stems from wisdom, the other, ignorance. But if I a were an ignoramus, would I know any better?!!

Also, I didn’t demonise anything that I have disagreed so far. For sure, I didn’t call Mahayanist or Theravadan or Vajrayanist or bodhisattvas or little buddhas demons or devils. There are people who disagree with my views or don't accept them and I never say they demonise! Be mindful of this.

Please read again this passage, and do not lump it with your emotion:-

"All this will create friction, owing to your uninhibited expressions. Please be mindful that you don't demonize what you don't agree or unable to accept. It does'nt help matters in any way."

At no time did I said you have demonize anybody, but instead I have reminded you to be mindful!

"It is a shame that not only that you are unable receive blessings from the others vehicles, because you have created a division in your mind, a prejudice which will hinder you in your cultivation"

You already have an aversion and it is been increasingly getting articulated. You are increasingly self righteous. Without humility, one cannot let of one's superiority and accept teachings.

As to American evangelism, I am far from it. I have an aversion about Christian evangelism, so do you say I am defiled because of this aversion?

I have seen in many forums where the party who disagreed was labelled as ‘disrespectful’ but you have taken it to the next level – ‘demonise’ and ‘denigration’ and ‘ill-feeling’. To me, a disagreement is a disagreement. You have not convinced me why I should agree with you. Instead, you accused me of ‘demonising’, ‘denigrating’ and having ‘ill will’

"You reminded me of a evangelist from America I saw in an religious rally many years ago in Singapore. He denigrated the statues of Buddha in Burma, now Myanmar. He does'nt understand the word offensive, what about you? The moment you mouth your ill feelings, this bastard , that bitch ,it gets personal, you create ill will. Yes, you are more refined and eloquent than that, but the ill will created is negative and counterproductive. Ill will obscures and negates good reasoning, a shame, is'nt it?"

I have only just related the fact the memory of the evangelist arose, I've used it to demonstrate denigration without demonizing.

I accept that most would miss the subtleties of denigrating and derogratory. One can be denigrating but stops short of demonizing, similiar in being negative but not in terms of intensity, please do not go there(demonizing).

You have levelled an accusation against me which is false!

" Yes, you are more refined and eloquent than that, but the ill will created is negative and counterproductive. Ill will obscures and negates good reasoning, a shame, is'nt it? "

As it is still a shame and distracts from the issue at hand!

As to the analogies you mentioned, I don’t get what you are trying to say. Suffice to say, if one experienced backache, one would be in a better position to understand and empathise with another sufferer. As far as the Noble Truth is concerned, ‘existence is dukkha’ is not an issue anywhere here in this forum. And I don’t see the need to emphasize that one must experience suffering in order to know suffering. Empathy is another matter.

There is knowledge of understanding through intellectual discourse and there is knowledge of experience. It is evident, that you understand through labelling, terminology and conceptual knowledge and not through personal experience.

Reading and understanding a travelogue in no way replicate and replace actually going to a place of mention. "Dukkha" or unsatisfactoriness to be relevant here(in Buddhism) there must be no"Dukkha",and no clinging, otherwise we will still be milling around!

I No Stupid

4 Aug 11, 19:11

Looking at the theme of this thread and going thru the posts, there is no doubt a fundamental difference between Hinayana arahat and Mahayana bodhisattva. However, what was silent is the larger perspective – the difference between Hinayana and Mahayana tradition. I would assume that most people in this forum are already familiar, so what I am posting here would be nothing new, perhaps a recollection. Since Mahayana came later and it was Mahayanists who coined the term for their tradition and called the other Hinayana, it is evitable the difference leans on the side of Mahayana.

Mahayana or Great Path/Vehicle (to liberation); to many of its adherents is known as Bodhisattva-yana. This is the belief that one should aspire to liberation as, or through the aid of a bodhisattva. That is to say that while liberation lies within one’s own ‘power’, they have turned to the other ‘powers’ – the benign power of buddhas and bodhisattvas for help. A bodhisattva transfers merit to other beings. This is based on the doctrine of ‘Transfer of Merit’.

It is widely taught that Mahayana differs from early teachings in two respects – the doctrine of No Self and the emphasis on altruism. Early Buddhism applied the doctrine of No Self to living beings whereas Mahayana applied it to all entities. Mahayana laid stress on altruistic idealism and veneration of divine figures. The biggest difference being the glorification of the Buddha and its multiplication of Buddhas and future Buddhas (bodhisattvas).

Shortly before his death, the Buddha refused to appoint anyone to succeed him as leader of the Sangha. He told the monks to take refuge in themselves, not in anyone else, and take refuge in the Dhamma, nothing else. Literally, this shows the Buddha asking people to think for themselves and to regard his teachings only. The glorification of the Buddha and the ascription of him of a status far above human (supernatural powers) must have begun during his lifetime such as to make him made such calls to his monks and followers. Also, one cannot miss out the devotional side and the ritual and magic it has engendered. The Buddha had declared ritual to be useless. However, the growth of Buddhist rites and liturgies was an unintended consequence of the Buddha’s preaching. This is an unfortunate fact.

Weychin

4 Aug 11, 20:22

Starting Out Small

A Collection of Talks for Beginning Meditators (Portfolio 3)

by

Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo

translated from the Thai by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

The Essence of Merit

July 23, 1957

Merit is the intention that arises in the heart beginning with your first thought of doing something good. For example, today you decided that you wanted to come to the monastery. That thought, in and of itself, was merit arising in the mind. Then you came to the monastery, received the precepts, and listened to a sermon in line with your original intention. In this way, your original intention succeeded in producing more merit in line with its aims. But if you think that you want to go to the monastery, to receive the precepts and listen to the Dhamma, but someone else happens to object or criticizes you in a way that spoils your mood, the merit in your mind — the original intention — disappears. Even if someone else then invites you to come to the monastery, you come here against your will and sit here like a stump, with no merit arising in your mind. This is because the essence of merit in your mind has already died.

The meritorious things that you do aren't the essence of merit. For example, giving donations, observing the precepts, listening to sermons, or sitting in meditation aren't the essence of merit. Still, we have to keep doing these things so that our old merit can grow fat and healthy instead of dying away. For this reason, when you make up your mind to do something good, hurry up and do it right away. When you want to give a donation, go ahead and give a donation. When you want to observe the precepts, observe the precepts. When you want to listen to the Dhamma, listen to the Dhamma. When you want to meditate, meditate. In this way, the results of your actions will grow full and complete in all three time periods. In other words, your mind will feel happy, joyful, and satisfied in your merit when you first think of doing it, while you're doing it, and when you're done...

The intention to do good — the first stage in your goodness — is the essence of merit. It's like planting a tree. When you give a donation, it's like putting fertilizer around the tree. When you observe the precepts, it's like picking away the worms and caterpillars that will eat the flowers or leaves. As for meditating, that's like watering the tree with clean, clear, cool water. In this way, your tree is sure to keep growing until it produces leaves and fruit that you can eat for your enjoyment in line with your original aim. If it's a flowering tree, the flowers will be bright and colorful, with large petals and a refreshing scent. If it's a fruit tree, the fruits will be plentiful, large, and sweet. This is how generosity, virtue, and meditation are means of developing the merit of your original thought.

But if your heart is in a sour mood, then you won't get much fruit from making merit or giving donations. It's like giving fertilizer to a tree that's already died. Even if all you want is a single custard apple from the tree, you won't be able to get what you want, because the fertilizer you gave to the tree has all gone to nourish the grasses and herbs growing at the foot of the tree, and hasn't done a thing for the custard apple you wanted. In the same way, if you just go through the motions of making merit, your original aim — to abandon greed, aversion, and delusion — won't bear fruit. The act of generosity is simply the fertilizer of merit. When the essence of merit has died, there's no way that you can eat the fertilizer, for it's nothing but filth — cow dung and chicken droppings. How can you ask for filthy stuff like that to come and help you in any way? But still, you're better off than people who haven't fertilized anything at all — i.e., who haven't developed virtue, concentration, or discernment — for at the very least you can gather the grasses and herbs that have fed on your fertilizer, to boil in a soup or fix as a salad.

So whenever you do anything, you have to check to see whether the essence of merit is in your heart. Some people make merit when their hearts are evil. They're like a sticky-rice sweet roasted in bamboo, where the rice on the top is soft and well-cooked, but the rice at the bottom is raw or burnt to a crisp. When this is the case, there's no way you can eat it, for it's not good all the way through. People by and large act in ways that aren't in line with their minds. Some people make donations but their hearts are still greedy, as when they give a gift because they want to become millionaires. Some people give one dollar expecting to get ten thousand or a hundred thousand in return. Some people observe the precepts but their hearts are still angry, jealous, or hateful toward this person or that. Some people meditate so that they can be beautiful and shapely in their next birth, or because they want to become devas up in heaven. Other people want to be this or that — always looking for something in exchange. This kind of merit is still wide of the mark.

The Buddha taught us to be generous for the sake of doing away with greed, to observe the precepts to do away with anger, and to meditate to do away with delusion, not for the sake of feeding these defilements. Some people come here to meditate and sit here absolutely still — their eyes are closed, their posture straight and unmoving, everything on the outside just the way it should be — but their minds are running around all over the place: to their orchards, their fields; some people's minds go zooming abroad in search of their children or friends, thinking about all kinds of things. Their minds aren't sitting together with their bodies. This is called a mind and a body not in line with each other — like a sticky-rice sweet where the top is cooked but the bottom is still raw.

If you're careful to keep the essence of merit with your heart, then go ahead and do whatever goodness you want. Don't come to the monastery behind the corpse of your merit. In other words, if you originally want to come to the monastery but someone else yells at you so that you come here in a foul mood against your will, this kind of merit-making doesn't help you much at all.

The reason we need to train our minds to be solid and strong in the Dhamma is because we're sure to face the three dangers of the world: (1) suffering, illness, and poverty; (2) death; and (3) enemies and foolish friends. We have to prepare ourselves so that when any of these things come our way, our hearts will be strong enough to contend with them bravely and without fear. No matter what side they may attack from, we have a strategy to fight them off in every way. This is why the daily blessing says, "Icchitam patthitam tumham khippameva samijjhatu," which means, "Whatever you want and desire, may it succeed quickly." In other words, when the mind is strong and powerful, whatever you think of doing is bound to succeed.

If you let your original thoughts of merit die or disappear from the mind before you come to give a donation, observe the precepts, or meditate, the results of the original intention won't develop, but at least you're better off than people who don't come at all. The original thought of merit is like a tree. If your tree doesn't die, then the more you fertilize it, the bigger it'll grow and the more it'll branch out. In other words, your actions will be lovely and quiet. Whatever your hands do will be merit. Wherever your feet step will be merit. Whatever your mouth says will be merit. Whatever your mind thinks will be merit. Your whole body will be merit. When this is the case, you'll meet with nothing but happiness.

Virtue, in terms its wording, consists of undertaking the five, eight, ten, or 227 precepts. In terms of its meaning, it consists of thinking, speaking, and acting in ways that harm no one. When you think, you do it with a mind of good will. When you speak, you do it with a mind of good will. When you act, you do it with a mind of good will. In terms of its flavor, virtue is coolness. For this reason, the act of undertaking the precepts isn't the essence of virtue; it's simply a way of fertilizing virtue — our original intention — so that it'll grow fat and strong.

The Pali word for virtue — sila — comes from sela, or rock, so when you develop virtue you have to make your heart large like an enormous rock. What's a rock like? It's solid, stable, and cool. Even though the sun may burn it all day, or rain may lash at it all night, it doesn't tremble or shake. In addition, it keeps its coolness inside. What kind of coolness is that? The coolness of bravery, quick reflexes, and circumspection. This kind of coolness is virtue — not the kind of coolness of a person who's slow and lackadaisical. If you're cool, you have to be cool from the virtue within you. Having virtue within you is like having a pool of water in your house. When your house has a pool of water, how can fire burn it down? When you have this kind of coolness looking after your heart, how can anger, hatred, or ill will overcome it?

In addition, this cool rock of virtue holds fire within it — but not the fire of defilement. It's a cool fire that you can put to all kinds of good uses. When you strike one rock against another, the spark can light a fire that you can use to cook your food or light your house. These are some of the benefits of virtue.

When you practice concentration but your mind isn't firmly established in genuine merit, Mara will come after you with a big grin on his face. What this means is the Maras of the aggregates: there will be feelings of pain throughout your body, your perceptions will be a turmoil, your thought-constructs will think of 108,000 different things, your consciousness will be aware all over the place. When this happens, your heart will be crushed and your merit snuffed out. Like a sticky-rice sweet that's not cooked all the way through: if you eat it, you'll get indigestion.

When practicing concentration, you have to be careful not to force or squeeze the mind too much, but at the same time you can't let it run too loose. Force it when you have to; let it go when you have to. The important point is to keep directed thought and evaluation in charge at all times. In this way, the mind gains quality: it won't play truant or go straying off the path of goodness. The nature of goodness is that there are bound to be bad things sneaking in, in the same way that when there are rich people there are bound to be thieves lying in wait to rob them. When you make merit, Mara in his different forms is sure to get in the way. So when you meditate, be careful not to fall into wrong mindfulness or wrong concentration.

Wrong mindfulness is when your awareness leaves the four frames of reference — body, feelings, mind, and mental qualities. Here, the body means the breath, feelings are sensations of comfort or discomfort, the mind is the awareness of the body, and the mental quality we want is the quality of the present.

Wrong concentration is when you're forgetful or unaware, as when you're unaware of how the body is sitting, where the mind is wandering off to, how it comes back. The mind lacks both mindfulness and alertness.

But when your concentration gets established, the mind will grow higher. And when the mind is up high, nothing can reach up to destroy its goodness. Like the stars, the moon, or the sun that shine in the sky: even though clouds may pass in front of them from time to time, the clouds can't sneak up or seep up to make the brightness of the stars, moon, or sun grow murky or dark.

Merit is a noble treasure. It's the source of all our inner wealth. When it arises in the mind, don't let anyone else touch it. When you have a source of wealth like this, it's like having a raw diamond, which is a hundred times better than having your wealth in property, cattle, or workers, for those things lie far away and are hard to look after. If you have a raw diamond, all you have to do is wrap it in cotton and it'll keep on growing. Just make sure that you don't cut or polish it. If you turn it into a cut diamond, then even if you keep it for 100 years it won't grow any further.

In the same way, when concentration arises in the mind, you have to look after it. Don't let any labels or concepts touch it at all. That way your concentration will develop step by step. Your mind will grow higher and higher. Happiness and coolness will come flowing your way. Everything you aspire to will succeed, and eventually you'll attain the paths and fruitions leading to nibbana.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/startsmall3.html#merit

Weychin

4 Aug 11, 21:13

Originally posted by I No Stupid:

Looking at the theme of this thread and going thru the posts, there is no doubt a fundamental difference between Hinayana arahat and Mahayana bodhisattva. However, what was silent is the larger perspective – the difference between Hinayana and Mahayana tradition. I would assume that most people in this forum are already familiar, so what I am posting here would be nothing new, perhaps a recollection. Since Mahayana came later and it was Mahayanists who coined the term for their tradition and called the other Hinayana, it is evitable the difference leans on the side of Mahayana.

Mahayana or Great Path/Vehicle (to liberation); to many of its adherents is known as Bodhisattva-yana. This is the belief that one should aspire to liberation as, or through the aid of a bodhisattva. That is to say that while liberation lies within one’s own ‘power’, they have turned to the other ‘powers’ – the benign power of buddhas and bodhisattvas for help. A bodhisattva transfers merit to other beings. This is based on the doctrine of ‘Transfer of Merit’.

It is widely taught that Mahayana differs from early teachings in two respects – the doctrine of No Self and the emphasis on altruism. Early Buddhism applied the doctrine of No Self to living beings whereas Mahayana applied it to all entities. Mahayana laid stress on altruistic idealism and veneration of divine figures. The biggest difference being the glorification of the Buddha and its multiplication of Buddhas and future Buddhas (bodhisattvas).

Shortly before his death, the Buddha refused to appoint anyone to succeed him as leader of the Sangha. He told the monks to take refuge in themselves, not in anyone else, and take refuge in the Dhamma, nothing else. Literally, this shows the Buddha asking people to think for themselves and to regard his teachings only. The glorification of the Buddha and the ascription of him of a status far above human (supernatural powers) must have begun during his lifetime such as to make him made such calls to his monks and followers. Also, one cannot miss out the devotional side and the ritual and magic it has engendered. The Buddha had declared ritual to be useless. However, the growth of Buddhist rites and liturgies was an unintended consequence of the Buddha’s preaching. This is an unfortunate fact.

The essential thing is that core Buddhist practice are also been encouraged and taught.No unpalatable shoving of dogma. Even with the adornment of rituals surrounding it, dhamma is still being disseminated,the wisdom of the Dhamma can be seein the liturgy.

Everybody's disposition is different, some ripen in this very life time, others a little longer.

Some are respond to pithy instruction while others, acts of compassion. If you visit temples or religious ceremonies, most people get inducted by the virtue of being "religious". Most do not or have encountered doctrine of "dissatisfactory" or able to relate to them initially.

Also shift in dissemination is also changing according to circumstance,as there more more people with the luxury of leisure time to contemplate.

I No Stupid

5 Aug 11, 01:20

Originally posted by Weychin:

Your post may not require a respond from me as it does not appear to be a specific reply. I take the 'you' as referring to my posts unless I am mistaken.  I can read between the lines.

Yes, need'nt had make a reply, but I have an inkling you would! Not many would be surprised!

Firstly, the schisms were Buddhist ones, so all yanas have the same core teachings or root.  In the same vein, different Christian or Muslim denominations have the same basic essence.  They came about thru charismatic founders and their followers and subsequent organised institution.  One thing is for sure – the schisms were disagreements within the original family resulting in breakaways, each having its own stroke, kick and textbook.

I see one Buddha and not many buddhas for a simple reason – the historical Buddha is unique.  The many buddhas are aspirations of individuals aiming to be like the Buddha.  These aspirations are grasping.  I also see bodhisattvas like Catholic saints – embodiment of certain qualities or perfections.  Trouble is – they become objects of devotion by the masses who built shrines for them. I cannot see how ‘blessings’ will help me in my path towards liberation.  Does it mean I need to ask for divine favour, approval, encouragement or gift?  And deity practice is basically seeking divine help, intervention, favour, and the like.

You have however, seemed to have forgotten the significance of core beliefs, the ease that people settle into the belief of Self , Soul and by association Creator, or God. It is so easy to fall back on core beliefs, inherited, inculcated, indoctrinated, or otherwise, in times of uncertainty and unease to seek higher powers. As we grew out of our reliance of on higher powers of our parents . we seek someone or something that is potentially more potent, omnipotent, that is.

If one wants to practice compassion, go do volunteer work in nursing homes, stand up against social injustice, fight poverty, not go to temple and make offering to Quanyin for example.

You make the presumption that compassion is homegeneous and all pervading.However, we do contain the seed, or potential. Two key aspect of Buddhism is Loving kindness( Metta) and Compassion(Karuna), without it, Buddhism is only an academical subject, a mere philosophy.How many times have I seen the strawberry generation being "coerced" to engage in charity works. Without strong aspiration, compassion activities cannot endure and quickly becomes jaded. It is for all a lot people,who, in the discourse of their lives, are indifferent and lack empathy, that what this practice is for. The core belief to up look for a omnipotent power is strong. To effectively discharge our compassionate engagements, one need aspiration(compassion) and helpful ability. For compassion to be arisen, we need to be able to have loving kindness, empathy for the suffering. Helpful ability is the wisdom, and available resources available to one. Helpful abilities are not equal, but we can have this aspiration, a practice of selflessness.

  If one wants to practice wisdom, join in these debates!

My mind is united not divided because I don’t see two ways about things, the ‘not here, not there’ kind of stuff.

Debates is to raise awareness and the ability to discern , if there is a genuine wish to share and foster understanding. But when it is to assuage one's ego, and to do one up against ones' opponent, it becomes a contest of personality and will. Perhaps wisdom may arise it must appear as later hindsight, with experience, but that is not a given. Knowing certain facts is not wisdom, it is the knowing of phenomena, the right views, non clinging and the maturity of how one work with the knowledge. Without emotional maturity, one cannot be considered wise.

Contrary to your mistaken notion “your views created your personality” – my personality precedes my views.  That is, if I am not courageous, would I express my views?

Self View reinforce personality, personality reinforce self views, I do not have a problem with that, do you?

The similarities between courageous and foolhardliness is the absence of fear. One stems from wisdom, the other, ignorance. But if I a were an ignoramus, would I know any better?!!

Also, I didn’t demonise anything that I have disagreed so far.  For sure, I didn’t call Mahayanist or Theravadan or Vajrayanist or bodhisattvas or little buddhas demons or devils.  There are people who disagree with my views or don't accept them and I never say they demonise!   Be mindful of this.

Please read again this passage, and do not lump it with your emotion:-

"All this will create friction, owing to your uninhibited expressions. Please be mindful that you don't demonize what you don't agree or unable to accept. It does'nt help matters in any way."

At no time did I said you have demonize anybody, but instead I have reminded you to be mindful!

"It is a shame that not only that you are unable receive blessings from the others vehicles, because you have created a division in your mind, a prejudice which will hinder you in your cultivation"

You already have an aversion and it is been increasingly getting articulated. You are increasingly self righteous. Without humility, one cannot let of one's superiority and accept teachings.

As to American evangelism, I am far from it.  I have an aversion about Christian evangelism, so do you say I am defiled because of this aversion?

I have seen in many forums where the party who disagreed was labelled as ‘disrespectful’ but you have taken it to the next level – ‘demonise’ and ‘denigration’ and ‘ill-feeling’.  To me, a disagreement is a disagreement.  You have not convinced me why I should agree with you.  Instead, you accused me of ‘demonising’, ‘denigrating’ and having ‘ill will’

"You reminded me of a evangelist from America I saw in an religious rally many years ago in Singapore. He denigrated the statues of Buddha in Burma, now Myanmar. He does'nt understand the word offensive, what about you? The moment you mouth your ill feelings, this bastard , that bitch ,it gets personal, you create ill will. Yes, you are more refined and eloquent than that, but the ill will created is negative and counterproductive. Ill will obscures and negates good reasoning, a shame, is'nt it?"

I have only just related the fact the memory of the evangelist arose, I've used it to demonstrate denigration without demonizing.
I accept that most would miss the subtleties of denigrating and derogratory. One can be denigrating but stops short of demonizing, similiar in being negative but not in terms of intensity, please do not go there(demonizing).

You have levelled an accusation  against me which is false!

" Yes, you are more refined and eloquent than that, but the ill will created is negative and counterproductive. Ill will obscures and negates good reasoning, a shame, is'nt it? "

As it is still a shame and distracts from the issue at hand!

As to the analogies you mentioned, I don’t get what you are trying to say.  Suffice to say, if one experienced backache, one would be in a better position to understand and empathise with another sufferer.  As far as the Noble Truth is concerned, ‘existence is dukkha’ is not an issue anywhere here in this forum.  And I don’t see the need to emphasize that one must experience suffering in order to know suffering.  Empathy is another matter.

There is knowledge of understanding through intellectual discourse and there is knowledge of experience. It is evident, that you understand through labelling, terminology and conceptual knowledge and not through personal experience.

Reading and understanding a travelogue in no way replicate and replace actually going to a place of mention. "Dukkha" or unsatisfactoriness to be relevant here(in Buddhism) there must be no"Dukkha",and no clinging, otherwise we will still be milling around!

hmmm ..... I am amused. You confirmed that I was not mistaken. Suffice to say, none of what you stated holds water. And I could only agree with you this statement you made: "But if I a were an ignoramus, would I know any better?!!"

No, you wouldn’t know what I said at all.

Weychin

6 Aug 11, 11:45

Originally posted by I No Stupid:

hmmm ..... I am amused. You confirmed that I was not mistaken. Suffice to say, none of what you stated holds water. And I could only agree with you this statement you made: "But if I a were an ignoramus, would I know any better?!!"

No, you wouldn’t know what I said at all.

Again, you've failed in understanding blessings, to able benefit from a teaching or even in the act of offering, one adopts a humble mindset and lowers oneself to receive. By this simple act, one can begin to accept and start receive the wisdom(the blessings) which will ripened in due course.

I liken you to a sift trying to scoop water, thus, you are unable to receive blessings.

Knowing I am ignorant, I know there is much more that I do not know and thus willing to learn, I humble myself.

I No Stupid

6 Aug 11, 12:02

Originally posted by Weychin:

Again, you've failed in understanding blessings, to able benefit from a teaching or even in the act of offering, one adopts a humble mindset and lowers oneself to receive. By this simple act, one can begin to accept and start receive the wisdom(the blessings) which will ripened in due course.

I liken you to a sift trying to scoop water, thus, you are unable to receive blessings.

Knowing I am ignorant, I know there is much more that I do not know and thus willing to learn, I humble myself.

It is very noble of you to be 'humble'. I am not into altruism but into reality. Sift obviously cannot hold water. It is used for separating nugget from it. I cannot see the blessings you mentioned in the water. The road to liberation, according to Buddha is by one's own effort. So, why do I need to receive blessings which is akin to seeking approval from the divine?

Weychin

6 Aug 11, 12:17

Originally posted by I No Stupid:

It is very noble of you to be 'humble'. I am not into altruism but into reality. Sift obviously cannot hold water. It is used for separating nugget from it. I cannot see the blessings you mentioned in the water. The road to liberation, according to Buddha is by one's own effort. So, why do I need to receive blessings which is akin to seeking approval from the divine?

"Again, you've failed in understanding blessings, to able benefit from a teaching or even in the act of offering, one adopts a humble mindset and lowers oneself to receive. By this simple act, one can begin to accept and start receive the wisdom(the blessings) which will ripened in due course."

I am able to see the wisdom of Theravada, Mahayana and Tantrayana teachings, I am able see pass the external form each practice had assimilated and evolved to reach the different people of different dispositions, and recognised the core teachings. I am able to see pass the symbolism, and I do not have aversion or and adverserial attitude. When I receive a present from someone, I may or may not like the the packaging or presentation, but I open up and discard the external packaging to receive the gift inside. You are obsessed with the packaging, you have yet to open your package.

I humble myself, I receive. I consider this a blessing.

DISCOURSE ON BLESSINGS
(Maha Mangala Sutta) (1)

Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living near Savatthi at Jetavana at Anathapindika's monastery. Now when the night was far advanced, a certain deity, whose surpassing radiance illuminated the whole of Jetavana, approached the Blessed One, respectfully saluted him, and stood beside him. Standing thus, he addressed the Blessed One in verse :

1. 'Many deities and men longing for happiness have pondered on (the question of) blessings. Pray tell me what the highest blessings are.

2. Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise, and to honour those worthy of honour - this is the highest blessing.

3. To reside in a suitable locality, to have performed meritorious actions in the past, and to set oneself in the right direction - this is the highest blessing.

4. Vast learning, skill in handicrafts, well grounded in discipline, and pleasant speech - this is the highest blessing.

5. To support one's father and mother; to cherish one's wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupations - this is the highest blessing.

6. Liberality, righteous conduct, rendering assistance to relatives, and performance of blameless deeds - this is the highest blessing.

7. To cease and abstain from evil, to abstain from intoxicating drinks, and diligent in performing righteous acts - this is the highest blessing.

8. Reverence, humility, contentment, gratitude, and the timely hearing of the Dhamma, the teaching of the Buddha, - this is the highest blessing.

9. Patience, obedience, meeting the Samanas (holy men), and timely discussions on the Dhamma - this is the highest blessing.

10. Self-control, chastity, comprehension of the Noble Truths, and the realization of Nibbana - this is the highest blessing.

11. The mind that is not touched by the vicissitudes of life (2), the mind that is free from sorrow, stainless, and secure - this is the highest blessing.

12. Those who have fulfilled the conditions (for such blessings) are victorious everywhere, and attain happiness everywhere - To them these are the highest blessings.'

NOTES:
1. Khp. 2; Sn. 46 under the title Mangala sutta; cf. Mahamangala Jataka No. 452.
2. The vicissitudes are eight in number: gain and loss, good-repute and ill-repute, praise and blame, joy and sorrow. This stanza is a reference to the state of mind of an Arahant, the Consummate One.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bp_sut02.htm

I No Stupid

6 Aug 11, 12:34

Originally posted by Weychin:

"Again, you've failed in understanding blessings, to able benefit from a teaching or even in the act of offering, one adopts a humble mindset and lowers oneself to receive. By this simple act, one can begin to accept and start receive the wisdom(the blessings) which will ripened in due course."

I am able to see the wisdom of Theravada, Mahayana and Tantrayana teachings, I am able see pass the external form each practice had assimilated and evolved to reach the different people of different dispositions, and recognised the core teachings. I am ableto see pass the symbolism, and I do not have aversion or and adverserial attitude. When I receive a present from someone, I may or may not like the the packaging or presentation, but I open up and discard the external packaging to receieve the gift inside. You are obsessed with the packaging, you have yet to open your package.

I humble myself, I receive. I consider this a blessing.

DISCOURSE ON BLESSINGS
(Maha Mangala Sutta) (1)

Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living near Savatthi at Jetavana at Anathapindika's monastery. Now when the night was far advanced, a certain deity, whose surpassing radiance illuminated the whole of Jetavana, approached the Blessed One, respectfully saluted him, and stood beside him. Standing thus, he addressed the Blessed One in verse :

1. 'Many deities and men longing for happiness have pondered on (the question of) blessings. Pray tell me what the highest blessings are.

2. Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise, and to honour those worthy of honour - this is the highest blessing.

3. To reside in a suitable locality, to have performed meritorious actions in the past, and to set oneself in the right direction - this is the highest blessing.

4. Vast learning, skill in handicrafts, well grounded in discipline, and pleasant speech - this is the highest blessing.

5. To support one's father and mother; to cherish one's wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupations - this is the highest blessing.

6. Liberality, righteous conduct, rendering assistance to relatives, and performance of blameless deeds - this is the highest blessing.

7. To cease and abstain from evil, to abstain from intoxicating drinks, and diligent in performing righteous acts - this is the highest blessing.

8. Reverence, humility, contentment, gratitude, and the timely hearing of the Dhamma, the teaching of the Buddha, - this is the highest blessing.

9. Patience, obedience, meeting the Samanas (holy men), and timely discussions on the Dhamma - this is the highest blessing.

10. Self-control, chastity, comprehension of the Noble Truths, and the realization of Nibbana - this is the highest blessing.

11. The mind that is not touched by the vicissitudes of life (2), the mind that is free from sorrow, stainless, and secure - this is the highest blessing.

12. Those who have fulfilled the conditions (for such blessings) are victorious everywhere, and attain happiness everywhere - To them these are the highest blessings.'

NOTES:
1. Khp. 2; Sn. 46 under the title Mangala sutta; cf. Mahamangala Jataka No. 452.
2. The vicissitudes are eight in number: gain and loss, good-repute and ill-repute, praise and blame, joy and sorrow. This stanza is a reference to the state of mind of an Arahant, the Consummate One.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bp_sut02.htm

To me, wisdom is not the same as blessing. Thus, it is not about failing to understand. It is a problem with Buddhist name or perhaps, translation?

Weychin

6 Aug 11, 12:45

Originally posted by I No Stupid:

To me, wisdom is not the same as blessing. Thus, it is not about failing to understand. It is a problem with Buddhist name or perhaps, translation?

I live a blessed life, I am content, my faults are minor. I find peace within myself.

I don't get overly caught in the slings and arrows of outrageous emotions! Ha! Ha!