Originally posted by I No Stupid:Sooner or later this question will arise. Thank you for asking. I am not comfortable with 'variety' because it means 'variants' (nice term) or 'deviants' (derogatory). Therefore, I am interested ONLY in Buddha's THOUGHTS and what he actually TAUGHT during his life-time, not his disciples (arahat or bodhisattva) and their various schools.
that means u are not a buddhist... yet...?
If u want to learn ONLY what Buddha taught during his life time, you gonna face lots of difficulty learning Buddhism.
Originally posted by I No Stupid://According Buddha Sakyamuni - Nirvana is Buddha while samsara is sentient beings, and there is no buddha or sentient beings truly existed in a bodhi mind.//
Where did you get this? Also, the many buddhas are just fairy tale legends.
Siddhartha Gautama was an ordinary human being. That he was a great thinker, fantastic teacher and a very wise person is NO DOUBT. As such, he has admirers and followers and people who pay him due respect and hold him in high regards. This is perfectly fine. However, to put him on a pedestal, elevate him to god-like status, revere him overtly and worship him ... is as good as idolatry.
very very very very wrong......................
Many buddhas is not equal to fairy tale....
To prostrate/revere before Buddha is to practise humility..... not equal to idolatry.
AND Buddha is not an ordinary human being. He's the enlightened one!
Originally posted by 2009novice:
that means u are not a buddhist... yet...?If u want to learn ONLY what Buddha taught during his life time, you gonna face lots of difficulty learning Buddhism.
What makes one a Buddhist? Taking refuge? Is being a Buddhist the goal of Buddhism?
I don't think it is difficult to learn what the Buddha taught. It is difficult to learn what the various schools/traditions have distorted!
Originally posted by 2009novice:very very very very wrong......................
Many buddhas is not equal to fairy tale....
To prostrate/revere before Buddha is to practise humility..... not equal to idolatry.
AND Buddha is not an ordinary human being. He's the enlightened one!
Indeed, the many buddhas are really tales. Have you seen them recorded in history book?
It is acceptable to honour and respect a wise person. To overtly revere someone borders on idolatry not humility!
The Buddha was an ordinary human being who had attained Nibbana. You and I are ordinary human being. Can you attain nibbana?
Originally posted by I No Stupid:What makes one a Buddhist? Taking refuge? Is being a Buddhist the goal of Buddhism?
I don't think it is difficult to learn what the Buddha taught. It is difficult to learn what the various schools/traditions have distorted!
Take refuge 1st before u start commenting...
If you think various schools are wrong, what's make u right...?
Originally posted by I No Stupid:Indeed, the many buddhas are really tales. Have you seen them recorded in history book?
It is acceptable to honour and respect a wise person. To overtly revere someone borders on idolatry not humility!
The Buddha was an ordinary human being who had attained Nibbana. You and I are ordinary human being. Can you attain nibbana?
Zero faith...
U need to have confidence in Buddha before you deny Buddha is/was an enlightened being...
I guess you never prostrate to Buddhas or Bodhisattvas.. U don't understand basic things... that's very wrong to say it's equal idolatry... U think we are stupid...?
I can attain Nibbana/Nirvana. Have some confidence in Triple Gems leh...
Enough of talking to u.... Bye
Originally posted by 2009novice:
Take refuge 1st before u start commenting...If you think various schools are wrong, what's make u right...?
You didn't answer my question: Is being a Buddhist the goal of Buddhism?
I think the various schools distorted some teachings of the Buddha. I hope I am not right in my assertion here!
Originally posted by 2009novice:Zero faith...
U need to have confidence in Buddha before you deny Buddha is/was an enlightened being...I guess you never prostrate to Buddhas or Bodhisattvas.. U don't understand basic things... that's very wrong to say it's equal idolatry... U think we are stupid...?
I can attain Nibbana/Nirvana. Have some confidence in Triple Gems leh...
Enough of talking to u.... Bye
hahaha, other religions also claim non-believers as zero faith!
So you can attain nibbana, are you a human being?
However, you give me the impression that you went into a jewellery shop and bought triple gems.
Originally posted by 2009novice:Zero faith...
U need to have confidence in Buddha before you deny Buddha is/was an enlightened being...I guess you never prostrate to Buddhas or Bodhisattvas.. U don't understand basic things... that's very wrong to say it's equal idolatry... U think we are stupid...?
I can attain Nibbana/Nirvana. Have some confidence in Triple Gems leh...
Enough of talking to u.... Bye
//I guess you never prostrate to Buddhas or Bodhisattvas.. U don't understand basic things... that's very wrong to say it's equal idolatry... U think we are stupid...?//
Did the Buddha ask his followers to postrate to him?
I don't know who the 'we' you are referring to .... but I think I am No Stupid and others could do better by being a thinking and informed Buddhist.
Originally posted by 2009novice:
that means u are not a buddhist... yet...?If u want to learn ONLY what Buddha taught during his life time, you gonna face lots of difficulty learning Buddhism.
Originally posted by I No Stupid:You didn't answer my question: Is being a Buddhist the goal of Buddhism?
I think the various schools distorted some teachings of the Buddha. I hope I am not right in my assertion here!
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Don't worry, you are wrong. On the contrary it is you who are distorting what the buddha himself said!
hahaha, I disagree with some of the teachings of the various schools/traditions. I teach nothing, so I distort nothing.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
His problem is not that he only wants to learn what Buddha taught. His problem is that he doesn't even believe in what Buddha said! He only believes in his own wrong ideas of Buddha that the Buddha himself has denied and warned others about! His cup is full
hahaha, your cup is as full as mine. You need a bigger CUP. Nothing new about what you related.
What I believed in the Buddha may not be what you believed. I know where you come from and your orientation. No wonder what you said are RIGHT, what I said are wrong.
Try answering some of my questions directly and don’t go round the bodhi tree. You picked and choose, ignoring some of the very pertinent points I raised. You are good at sutta-spouting, so are many scholars and monks. I am not convinced nor impressed – read and understand the Kalama sutta till the end, please.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I don’t need a bigger cup because I have already accepted the teachings of buddha after analysing, realizing and experiencing what he said. You on the other hand chose not to accept what the Buddha said, and remain stuck on your false views about dharma. I have already answered every point you made. And you have consistently chosen to ignore some essential things the Buddha himself said, due to your own narrow mindedness.
haha, so you accepted the teachings of the Buddha after analysing. What tools do you used to analyse?
Contrary to what you asserted, I am trying very hard to debunk false views propagated by the degenerated schools/traditions of Buddhism in order not to be stuck. For instance, the many buddhas of past and future. That bodhisattva are like saviours and Buddha had supernatural powers.
All the yanas do not lack the essence of Buddhism.
Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, or any visualising deities are embodiment of Paramitas, compassion, wisdom, generosity etc. Do not think less of these methods of practice. It depends on your predominant defilement on which deity practice is more suitable for you.
It is a shame that not only that you are unable receive blessings from the others vehicles, because you have created a division in your mind, a prejudice which will hinder you in your cultivation. Also your views created your personality. All this will create friction, owing to your uninhibited expressions. Please be mindful that you don't demonize what you don't agree or unable to accept. It does'nt help matters in any way.
You reminded me of a evangelist from America I saw in an religious rally many years ago in Singapore. He denigrated the statues of Buddha in Burma, now Myanmar. He does'nt understand the word offensive, what about you? The moment you mouth your ill feelings, this bastard , that bitch ,it gets personal, you create ill will. Yes, you are more refined and eloquent than that, but the ill will created is negative and counterproductive. Ill will obscures and negates good reasoning, a shame, is'nt it?
Buddhism of course can be studied and read more,but you create view points which is really contextual. See the manifestations for the embodiment they really represent. If you practice Avalokiteshvara, emulate the compassion, or Manjushri, cultivate wisdom. But that is hard for you now, for you have created an aversion, also a grasping or clinging to the external form. You missed the symbolism involved. You also under valued Bodhicitta!
It took around 20 years or so before I finally took the 3 refuges, I hope it will not take you that long! We all have varying experiences and backgrounds, therefore world views differ too. So please understand our beliefs and affinity are not homogenous, neither gain attainment on the same breadth! The wisdom and aspiration of Mahayana Buddhism to free all! All are complementary!
If you are comfortable with Theravada teachings, read if you must, but practice to experience what Buddhism is all about, what is Self, what causes Suffering.
A simple analogy for experience; imagine everybody have chronic backache or some other ache all their lives,and along the way. we manage find temporary relief and then we realise what relief from backache means. In this instance the Buddha found permanent relief.
But, because that you have experienced relief and others had not, how will you be able to relate that to those that have not experienced relief. You now understand what it is to suffer and also what bliss the relief brings,where previously you had not. You must has had to experience the suffering and relief to be able to relate. You start with temporary then later onto permanent relief.
Another experience analogy, you see colour but the colourblind only see shades of gray. They will never see the explosion or vividness of colours, just like we will never see ultraviolet light like a bee.
Originally posted by Weychin:All the yanas do not lack the essence of Buddhism.
Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, or any visualising deities are embodiment of Paramitas, compassion, wisdom, generosity etc. Do not think less of these methods of practice. It depends on your predominant defilement on which deity practice is more suitable for you.
It is a shame that not only that you are unable receive blessings from the others vehicles, because you have created a division in your mind, a prejudice which will hinder you in your cultivation. Also your views created your personality. All this will create friction, owing to your uninhibited expressions. Please be mindful that you don't demonize what you don't agree or unable to accept. It does'nt help matters in any way.
You reminded me of a evangelist from America I saw in an religious rally many years ago in Singapore. He denigrated the statues of Buddha in Burma, now Myanmar. He does'nt understand the word offensive, what about you? The moment you mouth your ill feelings, this bastard , that bitch ,it gets personal, you create ill will. Yes, you are more refined and eloquent than that, but the ill will created is negative and counterproductive. Ill will obscures and negates good reasoning, a shame, is'nt it?
Buddhism of course can be studied and read more,but you create view points which is really contextual. See the manifestations for the embodiment they really represent. If you practice Avalokiteshvara, emulate the compassion, or Manjushri, cultivate wisdom. But that is hard for you now, for you have created an aversion, also a grasping or clinging to the external form. You missed the symbolism involved. You also under valued Bodhicitta!
It took around 20 years or so before I finally took the 3 refuges, I hope it will not take you that long! We all have varying experiences and backgrounds, therefore world views differ too. So please understand our beliefs and affinity are not homogenous, neither gain attainment on the same breadth! The wisdom and aspiration of Mahayana Buddhism to free all! All are complementary!
If you are comfortable with Theravada teachings, read if you must, but practice to experience what Buddhism is all about, what is Self, what causes Suffering.
A simple analogy for experience; imagine everybody have chronic backache or some other ache all their lives,and along the way. we manage find temporary relief and then we realise what relief from backache means. In this instance the Buddha found permanent relief.
But, because that you have experienced relief and others had not, how will you be able to relate that to those that have not experienced relief. You now understand what it is to suffer and also what bliss the relief brings,where previously you had not. You must has had to experience the suffering and relief to be able to relate. You start with temporary then later onto permanent relief.
Another experience analogy, you see colour but the colourblind only see shades of gray. They will never see the explosion or vividness of colours, just like we will never see ultraviolet light like a bee.
Your post may not require a respond from me as it does not appear to be a specific reply. I take the 'you' as referring to my posts unless I am mistaken. I can read between the lines.
Firstly, the schisms were Buddhist ones, so all yanas have the same core teachings or root. In the same vein, different Christian or Muslim denominations have the same basic essence. They came about thru charismatic founders and their followers and subsequent organised institution. One thing is for sure – the schisms were disagreements within the original family resulting in breakaways, each having its own stroke, kick and textbook.
I see one Buddha and not many buddhas for a simple reason – the historical Buddha is unique. The many buddhas are aspirations of individuals aiming to be like the Buddha. These aspirations are grasping. I also see bodhisattvas like Catholic saints – embodiment of certain qualities or perfections. Trouble is – they become objects of devotion by the masses who built shrines for them. I cannot see how ‘blessings’ will help me in my path towards liberation. Does it mean I need to ask for divine favour, approval, encouragement or gift? And deity practice is basically seeking divine help, intervention, favour, and the like. If one wants to practice compassion, go do volunteer work in nursing homes, stand up against social injustice, fight poverty, not go to temple and make offering to Quanyin for example. If one wants to practice wisdom, join in these debates!
My mind is united not divided because I don’t see two ways about things, the ‘not here, not there’ kind of stuff. Also, what I said or commented are not imaginations because what I commented are what I see. Contrary to your mistaken notion “your views created your personality” – my personality precedes my views. That is, if I am not courageous, would I express my views?
Also, I didn’t demonise anything that I have disagreed so far. For sure, I didn’t call Mahayanist or Theravadan or Vajrayanist or bodhisattvas or little buddhas demons or devils. There are people who disagree with my views or don't accept them and I never say they demonise! Be mindful of this.
As to American evangelism, I am far from it. I have an aversion about Christian evangelism, so do you say I am defiled because of this aversion?
I have seen in many forums where the party who disagreed was labelled as ‘disrespectful’ but you have taken it to the next level – ‘demonise’ and ‘denigration’ and ‘ill-feeling’. To me, a disagreement is a disagreement. You have not convinced me why I should agree with you. Instead, you accused me of ‘demonising’, ‘denigrating’ and having ‘ill will’ – this is mischievous and unbecoming of one who took 20 yrs to find refuge.
As to the analogies you mentioned, I don’t get what you are trying to say. Suffice to say, if one experienced backache, one would be in a better position to understand and empathise with another sufferer. As far as the Noble Truth is concerned, ‘existence is dukkha’ is not an issue anywhere here in this forum. And I don’t see the need to emphasize that one must experience suffering in order to know suffering. Empathy is another matter.
Originally posted by I No Stupid:haha, so you accepted the teachings of the Buddha after analysing. What tools do you used to analyse?
Contrary to what you asserted, I am trying very hard to debunk false views propagated by the degenerated schools/traditions of Buddhism in order not to be stuck. For instance, the many buddhas of past and future. That bodhisattva are like saviours and Buddha had supernatural powers.
I'll give you an example of how a person should accept rebirth via analysis before he or she remembers their past life:
Rebith is proven through inference in the following way:
Mind has either a material cause or a non-material cause.
If mind has a material cause, one has to prove this, etc.
Buddhist reject that mind has a material cause, and assert it has a mental cause i.e. a previous moment of mind.
The first moment of mind in this life therefore must be dependent on a previous moment of mind from the last life.
Ergo, it is proven through inference that rebith is a valid teaching.
~ Namdrol
Secondly, that Buddha had powers, and people nowadays have powers, is a fact. If you choose not to believe in Buddha's words I have nothing to say - that is your own dogmatism and narrow mindedness.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I'll give you an example of how a person should accept rebirth via analysis before he or she remembers their past life:
Rebith is proven through inference in the following way:
Mind has either a material cause or a non-material cause.
If mind has a material cause, one has to prove this, etc.
Buddhist reject that mind has a material cause, and assert it has a mental cause i.e. a previous moment of mind.
The first moment of mind in this life therefore must be dependent on a previous moment of mind from the last life.
Ergo, it is proven through inference that rebith is a valid teaching.~ Namdrol
Secondly, that Buddha had powers, and people nowadays have powers, is a fact. If you choose not to believe in Buddha's words I have nothing to say - that is your own dogmatism and narrow mindedness.
I shall focus on Buddha's power. Could you specify what kind of power the Buddha had and how it is compare to "people nowadays have powers". I know what kinds of power people have, for example: power of corruption, power of authority (legitimate as well as illegitimate), power by possesion of arms, power of using money, power of influence, power of physical/sensual attraction, ...... and more (perhaps, you can add).
That is off topic. I have created a new thread earlier: The existence of supernatural powers
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I'll give you an example of how a person should accept rebirth via analysis before he or she remembers their past life:
Rebith is proven through inference in the following way:
Mind has either a material cause or a non-material cause.
If mind has a material cause, one has to prove this, etc.
Buddhist reject that mind has a material cause, and assert it has a mental cause i.e. a previous moment of mind.
The first moment of mind in this life therefore must be dependent on a previous moment of mind from the last life.
Ergo, it is proven through inference that rebith is a valid teaching.~ Namdrol
Secondly, that Buddha had powers, and people nowadays have powers, is a fact. If you choose not to believe in Buddha's words I have nothing to say - that is your own dogmatism and narrow mindedness.
don't say other people have dogma. even though i respect Buddhist teachings, i must say it has its own dogma too.
Originally posted by whylikethatah:don't say other people have dogma. even though i respect Buddhist teachings, i must say it has its own dogma too.
Your observation is correct. We don't have to talk about other religion. Here, you see dogma and dogmatic practice in this thread and forum.
Dogma means a set of beliefs that people are expected to accept without reasoning. Many here had advocated their beliefs and expect visitors here to accept without reasoning. Buddhism, they advocated is not based on logic (and logic is reasoning)!
Dogmatic means holding one's beliefs very strongly and expecting other people to accept them without questionings. Some of my pertinent questions were ignored.
I did not say, accept rebirth without reasoning.
I said, accept rebirth via inference first.
Then after that, go for direct experience.
Basically this is not different from science at all.