do animals have a soul?

• Fatum

  4 Apr 11, 14:43

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  What you said above contradicted with the bible. The bible says animals are created by God for humans' consumption. Though I totally disagree. What you said and what the bible said did not tally but I'm glad that you can think by yourself and not follow blindly.

  Genesis 9:1-5

  
  1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

   2  And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

  3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

   

  many buddhists eat meat too, don't they ? so is it a contradiction that they also believe animals to have the same souls (or self or whatever), as humans do ?

  I shall not go into the details with you, since you've stated that you're a buddhist, and this is a buddhist forum, and that when it comes to doctrinal issues, the real meanings and intentions of the teachings often become lost in the anality of nuaces, to put it in another way, it was said that even the devil himself can quote scripture to his advantage.

  Suffice to say I was a former buddhist, I love animals, and I had to investigate the issue of animal souls to my complete satisfaction before I took the leap and become a born again catholic. And really, what really matters, at the end of the day ? Like I said, I believe it's really one's own humanity .... a normal child who've never been touched by any religion before would still naturally cringe at the howls of a dog being beaten, or a pig being slaughtered, The operative forces of this world is beyond the ken of most of us, we can seek and argue about it till the end of our days, and the world would still go on, but this humanity is present in all of us, regardless of what we believe in, that's all that's neccessary, really.

   

• alize

  4 Apr 11, 14:45

  Believers and religious preachers say that animals DO NOT have a soul. This is just convenient bullshit to gel with the reality their supreme one has organized for us.

  If animals had souls, it would not gel with the sufferings of animals and their existence supposedly for our consumption.

  This does not mean they have no souls, nor mean that they have. Soul or no soul they should be treated with respect. Tell your friend he should be treated cruelly until he can prove he has a soul.

  People are organisms all the same. Those who don't agree are a very simple form of organism. Even my dog jumps on everybody but knows not to jump on pregnant ladies stomachs.

• sinweiy

  4 Apr 11, 14:53

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  
  ps: i reserve and i prefer not-self, as in later part Buddha start to teach in Tathagatagarbha doctrine, Lotus Sutra and Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra on "True-self".  

    

   

  佛说之无我与真我

  http://www.a202.idv.tw/a202-gb/BOOK1017/book1017-3.htm

  第一节 阿�诸�所说之无我与我

  　

  第三个�元，我们�讲佛所说的「无我与我�。佛说「无我�，但是佛也说「真我�，这个�元分为四个部份�讲。第一个部份讲：阿�诸�所说的「无我与我�。

  　

  阿�诸�有显说与�说两个部份。显说的部份是说「无我�，「无我�是讲五蕴��二处��八界全部都是因缘法所生，既然是因缘所生法，那就是由第八识�业��无明�父��四大元素和�，而展转出生，�有实体法，所以体性是空，最�终归断�--缘起性空。

  　

  也就是说，我们人所认为真实的「我�，其实是虚妄的，没有真实我的存在。但是四大部阿�中的许多�典��说「真我�。为什么说它是�说呢？因为它�覆密�而说。�覆密�而说是说有一个「真我�存在，但是�明白宣说，�在言说里�。

  　

  你如果有智慧，就能够了知阿��说的真我；你如果没有智慧，就�能了知。那么，今天时间很短，我�举出《阿��》中一段佛语�说；这一段�呢，那些研究阿�的专家们--譬如�顺法师是阿�的专家，他很清楚，他常常会背出这一段�--佛常常在四阿�中说：「好的色蕴��好的色蕴，美的色蕴�丑的色蕴，以�粗的色蕴�细的色蕴，过去久远劫以�的色蕴�未�久远劫以�的色蕴�以�现�最近的色蕴--今生的这个色蕴，统统是�我��异我��相在。�

  　

  这个色身--�管是过去很远的色身�未�很远的色身�现在已�具足而能由我所用的色身，都�是「��的我�；���说，这个色身是会��的，所以他�是「真实的我�。但是这个色身，佛�说「�异我�。这个色身�能说 �是我，��能说就是我，���说：这个色身是会��的，所以他�是「真实的我�。虽然这个色身�是真正的我，但他也�是跟「真正的我�完全无关，因为他是由那个「真正的我�生出�的--你的色身是你的第八识所创造出�的。父�和四大�是给你一个因缘--助缘而已，但是你的色身是你的第八识生出�，借�父精���借��亲的血液供养四大，然�由你的自心第八识制造出这样的色身。妈妈没有制造你，妈妈�是�供那个缘给你。

  　

  �是你�能够说︰「那这个真如是在我的色蕴之中�，或者说︰「我的色蕴在真如之中�，�能够这么说� 如果说真如在我的色蕴之中，那你拿刀一片一片慢慢把色蕴割开�，应该会找得到--会看�真如跑出�嘛��是你把人身割�碎肉，也找�到第八识真如，所以说祂与色身�相在。

  　

  你也�能这么说︰「那我的色身在真如里��，色身如果在真如里�，你把这个色身拉�，应该你就拉�真如了；�是你���抓��真如，因为祂是空性，祂�是色法，所以身体�掉时，第八识就离开了--你�能藉色身而拉�祂，所以说他们�相在。

  　

  我们�能够说如��真如在�八界里�，但是祂和�八界在一起，形影�离。祂是你最亲蜜的伙伴�最忠心的伙伴，永远都�会背弃你，�有你背弃祂--你死掉投胎的时候�觉知心的你就背弃祂，觉知心的你永远消失掉。

  　

  那么说到这里，请问︰「色法色蕴『�我��异我��相在�，佛这样开示，有没有一个我存在？�一定是有一个「我�存在，所以说这个就是「真正的我�。

  　

  但是这个我，��我们觉知心这个我︰「我喜欢�我讨厌�我�走开�我�跟你亲近�，�是这个「我�；祂离六尘�离�闻觉知��自觉我，根本就是无我性，那为什么�说祂是「我�？这个��，留到���说。

  　

  所以《阿��》里�，它有显说无我--明白的说五蕴��二处��八界这个「我��是真实的我--色身��闻觉知的心都是无常的�生�的，是缘起法，会断�，所以�是真正的「我�；但是�有�一个密�而说的「我�，与你�在一起。

  　

  在四大部《阿��》的许多�典中所说的「无我�法当中，�有一个「真实的我�存在，这个「真实的我�，��在《阿��》里�明白的宣说，所以说「�为二乘人说真我�。但是四大部《阿��》�全是为二乘人说，当中有一部份是为大乘��说，所以《阿��》里�已�有「摩诃��出现，摩诃�就是大乘。原始佛法的《阿��》里�已�有�方诸佛�有��，�是��顺法师所讲的说︰「原始佛教里��说大乘，�说�方佛��说第七识第八识。�乃至《增一阿����阿��》里�处处说真实的我，我们在《三乘唯识--如��系�律汇编》里�有列出一部份�。

  　

  《增一阿��》的《央掘魔罗�》，明明白白地把如��说出�，然��说诸佛��的解脱色。二乘人�无余涅盘，是把色法�尽，永远�会�有未�世的色身；但是���诸佛修�佛��而�得解脱的色身--有色法，但是这个色法也是解脱的。他��尽色法，他将有为的色法转��为无�的有为法，以无�有为法继续修行���，最��就究竟佛�。�佛以�也��掉色身，世世�有色身，用�度化众生，直到众生全部都出离生死，然�自己�会进入无余涅盘--永�未�色。而这�色身并�妨�诸佛��的解脱，因为他们都有能力于�报时入无余涅盘，或�自己心�而��生�转入下一世利益众生，��生死所系缚，纯粹是为利益众生而�生死，所以这�人间的色身就称为解脱色。

  　

  所以《阿��》里�早已宣讲如��，如��就是「真我�；�完全异于常�外�所说的我，完全异于佛门凡夫所知的觉知心我，完全异于外�所说的神我�梵我。�讲�一�解脱色，这个解脱色就是���常��的�生身，以��方如��世而有的应化身。诸佛常常化现于三界中的报身，加上应化身，都��解脱色，这�色法是永远��的。已�具足�得四�涅盘，断尽分段生死与�易生死，而�入无余涅盘�，由�地所�之�无尽愿所�，以自性身�报身�应化身常�三界度化有缘，尽未�际；由于��生死系缚，所以称为解脱色。

  　

  ****************************************************

  第二节

  般若诸�所说之无我与我

  　

  第二个部份是《般若�》所说的「无我与我�。《般若�》有大�《摩诃般若》���《摩诃般若》，还有《 金刚般若波罗蜜多�》，还有《心�》。

  　

  《般若�》怎么说「无我�？在显说无我部份，譬如说︰「凡所有相，皆是虚妄�，诸�都明白这个��：�说「一切有为法，如梦幻泡影，如露亦如电�。���说，在大��《摩诃般若�》里�说︰三世所现的一切诸法，祂��定；但是现象上是有，实际上�是暂有��有，没有真实常���之体性。因为是暂时而有���而有，所以一切有为法，在现象上�是没有，承认它是有，但它�是真实��的法，所以五蕴��八界「我�也是这样暂有�有�而说是空�无我。

  　

  那么请问︰「能觉能知的�识在�在五蕴��八界里头？�在�既然在五蕴�八界里头，那当然是有为法啰�离念�知心也是有为法，因为它与�闻觉知相应，那就是�识；既然�识的�闻觉知与六尘相应，当然祂是有相的法--有了知相。佛说︰「凡所有相皆是虚妄�，虚妄的法就是「无我�--无真实��性。五蕴��二处��八界，没有真实��的「我�，�附于蕴处界而有的离念�知心，他当然也是有相的有为法，当然是虚妄法。

  　

  那么请问︰「甘露是有为法？还是无为法？�（大众答︰有为法。）是有为法嘛�大家都知�。那神通是有为法？无为法？还是有为法哪�佛告诉我们说︰「一切有为法，如梦幻泡影，如露亦如电�，��就是说：这些法在世间相上是有的，虽然有这些法，�是这些法是有为法，这些有为法都是暂时而有，犹如梦中境界，醒�就消失了；犹如幻化�水泡�阳焰�露水一般，暂时而有，故说��而有�现已必�。露水，�能说它没有，然而它是�有，好�电光一样，所以说这些梦幻泡影一样的法，�是真实的法。

  　

  既然�识自我是有为有相的法，是因缘��的法，祂会是真实的法�？当然�是，所以《般若�》中处处宣说蕴�处�界无我。但《般若�》并�是宣说「一切法空�的断�空，所以《般若�》一方�广说五蕴�二处�八界�一切有相有为法皆是虚妄--缘起性空，皆无真实��的「我�，�是在�一方�，��处处以实相心而说第一义谛，以第一义谛显说无我性的「真我�。

  　

  为什么它�是�说呢？因为《般若�》是为��所说，而��修学佛法所�亲�的就是这个「实相心�般若心�，这个心就是��心。在大����《般若�》说「��心��念心�无�心�无心相心��心心�。这一些心说得�够，�在《般若波罗蜜多心��金刚�》说��有个无�心--应无所�而生其心。

  　

  你的�识--离念�知心，能�能无所�而生其心？能�能？我告诉诸�：�能�为什么？因为离念�知心一旦现�，就必定有所�，除�你这个�识心断了�现�。因为�识��一现�，就一定和六尘相应；就算是你打�入定，�入了二禅等至�之中，离开了欲界的五尘，但还是有定境中的法尘相应，既有定境法尘相应，就是有所�--�于定境的法尘中，�然有�识觉知心能觉知�分别定境；既能觉知分别定境法尘�所以能�在定境中，那就是有所�的心，�是无�心。因为你与定境法尘相应，那你就�入六尘之中；�入六尘而能了知六尘的觉知心，就�是无所�的心，虽然远离语言妄念，�然能清楚了知定境中的法尘，�于定境法尘而生其心的缘故，那就�是无所�而生其心。

  　

  所以说「应无所�而生其心�的那个心，祂是本�就无所�，然�在无所�当中�断地生其心。由于���得这个心，所以他�起了般若的智慧。而这个无�的心�是修行以��无�，祂就是本�无�；所以你悟了以�，�是将那个有�的觉知心��无�，而是悟得�一个无�心；悟了祂以�，祂�然和悟�一样无�，��然和悟�一样与离念�知心的你�在，这�是真正的佛法--是本�就已和你�在�本�就无所�的�一个第八识；而�是把本�能分别的你���能分别的白痴一般。

  　

  真正的佛法一定是现�的，�是修�的，这就是说︰「般若�讲的是无心相心�，「无心相心��是真正的我，有心相的心就�是真正的我。有心相的心--如贪�瞋�慢�疑的心以�清清楚楚明明白白的心，都是有心相的心；会与贪瞋相应的清楚明白的心，现在虽然清楚明白，等一下身体疲累�打瞌�时��昧了，眠熟时�完全�明白了，�能�一切时��清楚明白。

  　

  你说︰「我��断�，我���觉醒，乃至连�觉我都��。�这样��觉醒性，并且一念�生而清楚明白，但是��与六尘相应，于一念�生之中�会分别六尘，这就是「有心相心�，�是「无心相心�。《般若�》中跟我们说：��有个「无心相心�，���说，祂是本��贪��瞋��慢��疑的体�，他�会喜欢这个�讨厌那个，这就是「无心相心�--没有众生所知�的心相。般若系诸�讲这个心，就是显说「真我�。

  　

  然��说「�心心�--说��有一个�是心的心；如果�禅过程当中，你悟了--找到你的心，那个心就是真心。但是你得检查你所悟的那个心是�是你所知的心？若是在你闻�究竟了义法以�就知�的心，对�起�那�是「真正的我�，因为这个心也是众生所能了知的心；而��所悟的心是「�心的心�，�是有情所知�的能�闻觉知的众生心。这��很奇怪，既�是心，�怎么说祂是心呢？�是这个真心�真的�是众生所说的心。就好�人家骂你︰「你真的�是人��你说︰「啊�谢谢你赞�我。�是人，�是真人。�人家骂说：「你是无�人。�你说︰「谢谢你赞美我，无�人�是真正的�人。�这个「�心心�就是般若诸�显说的「真我�。

  　

  �得这个《般若�》所讲的「真我�，就是般若的总相智和别相智。如果你��得「��心��念心��心心�无心相心�无�心�，而以觉知心常常��在�念一切法的状况，那你就�是�悟般若的人；就算是觉知心常常一念�生，也�然�是�悟般若，因为这个觉知心�是佛所说的「�念心�。你所�悟的般若，是从你�得那「本��起一切念的心�本�就�怀念一切法的心�本�就�忆念一切法的心�，由�得这个�念心�能生起般若的智慧，般若的智慧就是这样�的。

  　

  而《大�般若���般若》�《心�》所说的般若，就是在讲这个「��心��念心�的体性。祂是这�八�中�统统具足的心。而这个心�是心���心，这个�是真正的「我�。为什么祂是真正的「我�呢？因为祂�常��，无始劫��曾起妄念，无始劫��曾念佛�念一切法，永远没有我执�法执，�永远没有断��永远常�，这样�是真正的「我�嘛�所以会断�的觉知心�对�是真正的「我�；而这个真正的「我��一�离�闻觉知，一�没有我�我执，无始劫�都是无我性，从���。

  　

  ****************************************************

  第三节

  唯识诸�所说之无我与我

  　

  佛讲了般若以�，有许多人因�了解而产生了评论，就有空有之诤，空有之诤�存在于佛门内的凡夫之中。阿罗汉�会跟人家作空有之诤，因为阿罗汉�得涅盘以�，他有一天起了一个念︰「那我入了涅盘以�，�八界统统�尽了，是�是��断�？�他就去问佛，佛说︰「�然�你入了涅盘以�，涅盘之中有本际常���。�这个本际也就是「识缘�色�的「识�，就是「�色缘识�的「识�，也就是入胎识。阿罗汉�到佛的开示以�，就心安了，他想：「我�身的时候，�以安心的入涅盘，因为我是虚妄的，我�了以�，我的本际��，所以涅盘�是断�。�

  　

  å�ªæœ‰å‡¡å¤«ä¸�如实知涅盘--ä¸�知无余涅盘之中有本际ä¸�ç�­ï¼Œä¸�如实知般若--ä¸�知般若是在讲第八识é�žå¿ƒå¿ƒçš„体性，他们æ‰�会有空有之诤。因为这些凡夫有空有之诤，所以佛å�ˆæ�¥ä¸€æ¬¡ä¸‰è½¬æ³•è½®--讲唯识ç»�典。唯识的ç»�å…¸å�¯å°±å¤šäº†ï¼Œæœ€æœ‰å��的是《楞伽ç»�ã€�解深密ç»�》，以å�Šã€Šå¦‚æ�¥è—�ç»�ã€�大乘å�Œæ€§ç»�ã€�无上ä¾�ç»�ã€�胜鬘ç»�……》等等都是，乃至阿å�«ç»�都已曾说唯识之ç�†ã€‚

  　

  关于三转法轮之唯识正�，分为两门�说︰在虚妄唯识门里�显说「无我�，在真实唯识门，则显说无我性的「真我�。虚妄唯识门显说「无我�就是处处告诉我们：众生的五蕴��二处��八界�以什么为因？�以什么为缘？然��能生出色�想行识，�有众生的五蕴我，�有�闻觉知的「我�。「众生我�是由色法开始的，这个色法以如��为因，以过去世�识�根所造作净染诸行所�的业�为缘，加上父�为缘�四大为缘，所以生起我们的色身；有了色身以�，�有我们�闻觉知的心。这就已�是告诉我们：我们人以为真实��的「我�，其实是�我，是由�识因���缘而��形�。虚妄唯识门就是告诉我们：五蕴��二处��八界所��而�的「我�是虚妄的，�是真实��的，所以虚妄唯识门宣说一切法无我--当然包括众缘所��而�的离念�知心--都是�具有真实��性的�我，�是常���的真我。

  　

  真实唯识门则告诉我们：阿赖耶识�是真实「我�，因为阿赖耶识中��了许多导致有情生死轮回的��，使得有情�入分段和�易生死之中。由于阿赖耶识��了无明��业力�烦��，令有情轮回生死，所以说阿赖耶识�是真实的「我�，说阿赖耶识�真。然�在这真实唯识门中，�宣说阿赖耶识中本�具足了能令有情解脱分段生死的体性--本�自性清净涅盘；由于阿赖耶是本有的这个涅盘性，所以佛门中人�以�此涅盘而修断烦�，�就有余�涅盘�无余�涅盘�无�处涅盘；由此本�自性清净涅盘之体性，能令佛门中人断除无始无明中的一切所知障�眠而�究竟佛�。阿赖耶具足了如此的特性，所以�得阿赖耶识的人，�以�凭阿赖耶的�验，�深入了知祂的体性，而具足解脱慧与般若慧；具足了这二�慧，就断尽了分段生死与�易生死，这时的阿赖耶识便改�为无垢识，也就是佛地的第八识--真如--真正的真如。

  　

  所以真实唯识门所说的阿赖耶识是说：阿赖耶是�具有性与空性，�具生死轮回性与涅盘解脱性，�具染污性与清净性；若�入佛门修�解脱�，则阿赖耶识�为众生轮回之因；若入佛门修学解脱�，则阿赖耶识��解脱轮回之因。若�入佛门修�佛���，则阿赖耶识永远�能转��佛地真如，则是虚妄识；若能进入佛门修�佛���，则阿赖耶识其实正是未�佛地真如之体，则是真相识，是真正之「我�；所以因地的祂是虚妄性��虚妄，如此�虚妄��虚妄而�就中�。

  　

  这就是说：唯识�智中，虚妄唯识门所说的五蕴无我��二处无我��八界无我，展转所生一切法也都无我，说蕴处界�一切法都是缘起性空，这就是显说「无我�。唯识�智中，真实唯识门所显说的「我�，则有四�显说，那就是业感缘起�赖耶缘起�真如缘起以�真常唯心。

  　

  什么是业感缘起？就是说�方三世一切有情，在世间造了善�业以�，一切善业����业��都记存在阿赖耶识中，将�便由这些业�，引生善报以��报，�为业感缘起。世间俗人常说︰「善有善报，�有�报；�是�报，时候未到�，�是业感缘起--由善�业之��感应而有未�之顺�果报。譬如有人学佛以�开始修集�德，慈济布施�买物放生；或者供养三�，护�正法，乃至为救护众生「离众生相�而出头摧邪显正，都是善业净业，未�必定感生良善果报：这�由善净业而引生良善果报之现象，�为业感缘起。

  　

  缘起�一定是令人厌�的，也有正�的现象与事实，也就是说：作了善业，必定生于三善�，�用世间快�；生于三善�之�，如果志得�满，侵欺众生，�考父�公婆，忤逆师长，诽谤正法�诸贤圣，乃至诸佛，�寿之�，就�入三��中，�尽���如�境界，乃至地狱中��惨���之刑罚，历�多劫�生于饿鬼畜生�，展转报尽�能�回人间�生，这都是业感缘起。

  　

  �方三界有情，由于造作��善业�业，无�劫��知应断我�我执，所以�报之�，��新�胎于三界之中，这就是业感缘起。业感缘起的��，是说一切有情所造的一切善�业，都会一直潜�在�人的第八识中，��有情世世转生而�缘现行，所以龙树��说：「�使百�劫，所作业�亡，因缘际会时，果报还自�。�但业感缘起并�全部是贪染的��劣的，也有正�的�善美的，譬如��修三�净业�护�正法，�世必得�爱异熟果报，�论世间法或修学佛�上，都必顺心如�。然而众生的业感缘起，通常是负�的--�背众生心之所�，这是由于众生�了解业感缘起，为求一时之离苦�爱�，而造作�业；由此�业而感应生起未�世的长时�苦，这就是业感缘起。

  　

  第二ç§�缘起å��为赖耶缘起。赖耶缘起是说众生所造一切善æ�¶ä¸šï¼Œä»¥å�Šæ‰€ç†�习的一切善染法ã€�一切世间出世间法，ä¸�论是什么法，都è�½åœ¨é˜¿èµ–耶识之中所集è—�。由于阿赖耶集è—�你所造作ç†�习的一切业ç§�以å�Ž--你的无明ç§�也集è—�ã€�业ç§�也集è—�--那你因为阿赖耶识，就有了三界的生死轮回，于三界生死轮回之中，往世所造业ç§�，以å�Šæ‰€ç†�æ— æ¼�法ç§�，就会一一é�‡ç¼˜çŽ°è¡Œï¼›è¿™äº›æ— æ˜Žç§�ã€�业ç§�，å�Šæ— æ¼�法ç§�净业法ç§�，都由å�„人的阿赖耶识集è—�，éš�ç�€å�„人的转生而带到未æ�¥ä¸–去，一世一世递传ä¸�ç�­ï¼›é™¤é�žé�‡ç¼˜çŽ°è¡Œå�—报，å�¦åˆ™ä¸šç§�将会永远存在å�„人的阿赖耶识中，等ç�€ç¼˜ç†Ÿæ—¶çŽ°è¡Œå�—报；这ç§�阿赖耶识集è—�一切法ç§�ä¸�ç�­ã€�é�

• sinweiy

  4 Apr 11, 15:02

  Originally posted by Fatum:

  many buddhists eat meat too, don't they ? so is it a contradiction that they also believe animals to have the same souls (or self or whatever), as humans do ?

   

  
  there are different level. there's the basic teaching and the advance teaching.  basic teaching on pure meat can be eaten where the meat is not killed Especially for the person.

• An Eternal Now

  4 Apr 11, 15:12

  We have to be very careful about the teaching of Tathagatagarbha because it is most often mistaken to be the Hindu Brahman.

  As Loppon Namdrol states (and modern masters including Master Yin Shun have also reiterated that Tathagatagarbha teachings are provisional teachings at teaching emptiness):

  "Tathagatagarbha exists principally to describe emptiness in terms that those frightened of absence of identity can handle."

  ........

  Were the Buddha to teach such a doctrine, it might be so. However, in the Nirvana sutra is states quite plainly the following:
  
  That is called ‘Buddha-nature’ because all sentient beings are to be unsurpassedly, perfectly, completely enlightened at a future time. Because afflictions exist in all sentient beings at present, because of that, the thirty two perfect marks and the eighty excellent exemplary signs do not exist”.
  
  Here, the Nirvana sutra clearly and precisely states that buddha-svabhaava, the "nature of a Buddha" refers not to an actual nature but a potential. Why, it continues:
  
  "Child of the lineage, I have said that ‘curd exists in milk’, because curd is produced from milk, it is called ‘curd’.
  
  Child of lineage, at the time of milk, there is no curd, also there is no butter, ghee or ma.n.da, because the curd arises from milk with the conditions of heat, impurities, etc., milk is said to have the ‘curd-nature’."
  
  So one must be quite careful not to make an error. The Lanka states unequivocably that the tathagatagarbha doctrine is merely a device to lead those who grasp at a true self the inner meaning of the Dharma, non-arising, the two selflessnesses and so on, and explains the meaning of the literal examples some people constantly err about:
  
  "Similarly, that tathaagatagarbha taught in the suutras spoken by the Bhagavan, since the completely pure luminous clear nature is completely pure from the beginning, possessing the thirty two marks, the Bhagavan said it exists inside of the bodies of sentient beings.
  
  When the Bhagavan described that– like an extremely valuable jewel thoroughly wrapped in a soiled cloth, is thoroughly wrapped by cloth of the aggregates, aayatanas and elements, becoming impure by the conceptuality of the thorough conceptuality suppressed by the passion, anger and ignorance – as permanent, stable and eternal, how is the Bhagavan’s teaching this as the tathaagatagarbha is not similar with as the assertion of self of the non-Buddhists?
  
  Bhagavan, the non-Buddhists make assertion a Self as “A permanent creator, without qualities, pervasive and imperishable”.
  
  The Bhagavan replied:
  
  “Mahaamati, my teaching of tathaagatagarbha is not equivalent with the assertion of the Self of the non-Buddhists.
  
  Mahaamati, the Tathaagata, Arhat, Samyak Sambuddhas, having demonstrated the meaning of the words "emptiness, reality limit, nirvana, non-arisen, signless", etc. as tathaagatagarbha for the purpose of the immature complete forsaking the perishable abodes, demonstrate the expertiential range of the non-appearing abode of complete non-conceptuality by demonstrating the door of tathaagatagarbha.
  
  Mahaamati, a self should not be perceived as real by Bodhisattva Mahaasattvas enlightened in the future or presently.
  
  Mahaamati, for example, a potter, makes one mass of atoms of clay into various kinds containers from his hands, craft, a stick, thread and effort.
  
  Mahaamati, similarly, although Tathaagatas avoid the nature of conceptual selflessness in dharmas, they also appropriately demonstrate tathaagatagarbha or demonstrate emptiness by various kinds [of demonstrations] possessing prajñaa and skillful means; like a potter, they demonstrate with various enumerations of words and letters. As such, because of that,
  
  Mahaamati, the demonstration of Tathaagatagarbha is not similar with the Self demonstrated by the non-Buddhists.
  
  Mahaamati, the Tathaagatas as such, in order to guide those grasping to assertions of the Self of the Non-Buddhists, will demonstrate tathaagatagarbha with the demonstration of tathaagatagarbha. How else will the sentient beings who have fallen into a conceptual view of a True Self, possess the thought to abide in the three liberations and quickly attain the complete manifestation of Buddha in unsurpassed perfect, complete enlightenment?"
  
  Thus, the Lanka says:
  
  All yaanas are included
  in five dharmas, three natures,
  eight consciousnesses,
  and two selflessnesses
  
  It does not add anything about a true self and so on.
  
  If one accepts that tathaagatagarbha is the aalayavij~naana, and one must since it is identified as such, then one is accepting that it is conditioned and afflicted and evolves, thus the Lanka states:
  
  Tathaagatagarbha, known as ‘the all-base consciousness’, is to be completely purified.
  
  Mahaamati, if what is called the all-base consciousness were (37/a) not connected to the tathaagatagarbha, because the tathaagatagarbha would not be ‘the all-base consciousness’, although it would be not be engaged, it also would not evolve; Mahaamati, it is engaged by both the childish and Aaryas, that also evolves.
  
  Because great yogins, the ones not abandoning effort, abide with blissful conduct in this at the time of personally knowing for themselves…the tathaagatagarbha-all basis consciousness is the sphere of the Tathaagatas; it is the object which also is the sphere of teachers, [those] of detailed and learned inclinations like you, and Bodhisattva Mahaasattvas of analytic intellect.
  
  And:
  
  Although tathaagatagarbha
  possesses seven consciousnesses;
  always engaged with dualistic apprehensions
  [it] will evolve with thorough understanding.
  
  
  If one accepts that the tathaagatagarbha is unconditioned and so on, and one must, since it is identified as such other sutras state:
  
  "`Saariputra, the element of sentient beings denotes the word tathaagatagarbha.
  `Saariputra, that word ‘tathaagatagarbha’ denotes Dharmakaaya.
  
  And:
  
  `Saariputra, because of that, also the element of sentient beings is not one thing and the Dharmakaaya another; the element of sentient beings itself is Dharmakaaya; Dharmakaaya itself is the element of sentient beings.
  
  Then one cannot accept it as the aalayavij~naana-- or worse, one must somehow imagine that something conditioned somehow becomes conditioned.
  
  Other sutras state that tathaagatagarbha is the citta, as the Angulimaala suutra does here:
  
  "Although in the `Sraavakayaana it is shown as ‘mind’, the meaning of the teaching is ‘tathaagatagarbha’; whatever mind is naturally pure, that is called ‘tathaagatagarbha’.
  
  So, one must understand that these sutras are provisional and definitive, each giving different accounts of the tathaagatagarbha for different students, but they are not defintive. Understood improperly, they lead one into a non-Buddhist extremes. Understood and explained properly, they lead those afraid of the profound Praj~naapaaramitaa to understanding it's sublime truth. In other words, the Buddha nature teaching is just a skillful means as the Nirvana sutra states
  
  "Child of the lineage, buddha-nature is like this; although the ten powers and the four fearlessnesses, compassion, and the three foundations of mindfulness are the three aspects existing in sentient beings; [those] will be newly seen when defilements are thoroughly conquered. The possessors of perversion will newly attain the ten powers (44/ and four fearlessness, great compassion and three foundations of mindfulness having thoroughly conquered perversion.
  
  Because that is the purpose as such, I teach buddha-nature always exists in all sentient beings.
  
  When one can compare and contrast all of these citations, and many more side by side, with the proper reading of the Uttataratantra, one will see the propositions about these doctrines by the Dark Zen fools and others of their ilk are dimmed like stars at noon.
  ----------------
  It is how Chandrakirti understands the citation. And the sutra itself states:
  
  "Mahaamati, the Tathaagata, Arhat, Samyak Sambuddhas, having demonstrated the meaning of the words, emptiness, reality limit, nirvana, non-arisen, signless, etc. as tathaagatagarbha; for the purpose of the childish complete forsaking perishable realms, demonstrate the sphere of activity of the non-appearing abode of complete non-conceptuality by demonstrating the door of tathaagatagarbha. "
  
  Tathagatagarbha is therefore just a synonym of emptiness.
  
  N
  ----------------

  Sakya Pandita's approach to the issue is best: tathagatagarbha is a provisional teaching, not a definitive one."
  ----------------

• reborn76

  4 Apr 11, 15:17

  Originally posted by kuji-in:

  i was talking to a christian fren.

  He told me that animals do not have a soul and it is ok to slaughter animals because it will not feel any pain.

  i was very upset with his answer. i told him, if he use a stick to beat a dog, would the dog not whine?

  we argue over the matter.

  So, fellow buddhist frens, what is your take on the matter?

  Ecclesiastes 3 (New King James Version)

   ¹⁸ I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” ¹⁹ For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. ²⁰ All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. ²¹ Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

  Pls refer to the above bible quote. It seem like it is in Jewish culture to believe that animals also has a spirit.

  On the whole, all living beings fear death....

• sinweiy

  4 Apr 11, 15:21

  right,

  change the word "true-self" to luminosity is a good call.

  i thinking to the Tientai school, Lotus sutra is the 'ultimate' while the rest is provisional.

   

  it's bit worrying that ppl might reject karma too, when ppl like Fatum could mistake buddhism when said:-

  many buddhists eat meat too, don't they ? so is it a contradiction that they also believe animals to have the same souls (or self or whatever), as humans do ?

   so animal no self/soul, can anyhow eat. no karma/cause and effect involve?

   

  as karma cannot be neglected, hence i reminded for purelander that Both the Lankavatara and Esoteric Adornment Sutras Stated:

  "It is better to be attached to Existence, though the attachment may be as big as Mount Sumeru, than to be attached to Emptiness, though the attachment may be as small as a mustard seed." 

   

   

• Dawnfirstlight

  4 Apr 11, 16:09

  Originally posted by Fatum:

  many buddhists eat meat too, don't they ? so is it a contradiction that they also believe animals to have the same souls (or self or whatever), as humans do ?

  I shall not go into the details with you, since you've stated that you're a buddhist, and this is a buddhist forum, and that when it comes to doctrinal issues, the real meanings and intentions of the teachings often become lost in the anality of nuaces, to put it in another way, it was said that even the devil himself can quote scripture to his advantage.

  Suffice to say I was a former buddhist, I love animals, and I had to investigate the issue of animal souls to my complete satisfaction before I took the leap and become a born again catholic. And really, what really matters, at the end of the day ? Like I said, I believe it's really one's own humanity .... a normal child who've never been touched by any religion before would still naturally cringe at the howls of a dog being beaten, or a pig being slaughtered, The operative forces of this world is beyond the ken of most of us, we can seek and argue about it till the end of our days, and the world would still go on, but this humanity is present in all of us, regardless of what we believe in, that's all that's neccessary, really.

   

  Though not all Buddhists are vegetarians but we are encouraged by the monks to be part time vegetarian or full time vegetarian or eat less meat. All the Mahayana temples serve only vegetarian food and Mahayana monks and nuns are vegetarian.

• Dawnfirstlight

  4 Apr 11, 16:11

  Originally posted by alize:

  Believers and religious preachers say that animals DO NOT have a soul. This is just convenient bullshit to gel with the reality their supreme one has organized for us.

  If animals had souls, it would not gel with the sufferings of animals and their existence supposedly for our consumption.

  This does not mean they have no souls, nor mean that they have. Soul or no soul they should be treated with respect. Tell your friend he should be treated cruelly until he can prove he has a soul.

  People are organisms all the same. Those who don't agree are a very simple form of organism. Even my dog jumps on everybody but knows not to jump on pregnant ladies stomachs.

  Ha ha ....... I like your sentence : Tell your friend he should be treated cruelly until he can prove he has a soul. Sound logical to me.
  

• Synasta

  4 Apr 11, 16:35

  I'm not sure about the different denominations in Christianity but you may want to refer your friend to Francis of Assisi, the patron saint of animals.

• sinweiy

  4 Apr 11, 20:31

  Ko'an - "True Self"

  
  A distraught man approached the Zen master. "Please, Master, I feel lost, desperate. I don't know who I am. Please, show me my true self!" But the teacher just looked away without responding. The man began to plead and beg, but still the master gave no reply. Finally giving up in frustration, the man turned to leave. At that moment the master called out to him by name. "Yes!" the man said as he spun back around. "There it is!" exclaimed the master.

  ---------------------------------

  Shurangama Sutra

  Chapter 2
  
  ...Examining them closely, I find that kshana by kshana, thought after thought, they never stop. And so I know my body will keep changing until it has perished."
  
  The Buddha told the Great King (Prasenajit),  "By watching the ceaseless changes of these transformations, you awaken and know of your perishing, but do you also know that at the time of perishing there is something in your body which does not become extinct?"
  
  King Prasenajit put his palms together and said to the Buddha, "I really do not know."
  
  The Buddha said, "I will now show you the nature which is neither produced and nor extinguished. Great King, how old were you when you saw the waters of the Ganges?"
  
  The King said, "When I was three years old my compassionate mother led me to visit the goddess Jiva. We passed a river, and at the time I knew it was the waters of the Ganges."
  
  The Buddha said, "Great King, you have said that when you were twenty you had deteriorated from when you were ten. Day by day, month by month, year by year until you reached sixty, in thought after thought there has been change. Yet when you saw the Ganges River at the age of three, how was your seeing nature different from when you were thirteen?"
  
  The King said, "It was no different from when I was three, and even now when I am sixty-two it is still no different."
  
  The Buddha said, "Now you are mournful that your hair is white and your face wrinkled. In the same way that your face is definitely more wrinkled then it was in your youth, has the seeing with which you look at the Ganges aged, so that it is old now but was young when you looked at the river as a child in the past?"
  
  The King said, "No, Bhagavan."
  
  The Buddha said, "Great King, your face is wrinkled, but the essential nature of your seeing will never wrinkle. What wrinkles is subject to change. What does not wrinkle does not change. What changes will perish, but what does not change is fundamentally free of production and extinction. How could it be subject to your birth and death? Furthermore, why bring up what Maskari G oshaliputra and the others say: that after the death of this body there is total annihilation?"
  
  The king heard these words, believed them, and realized that when the life of this body is finished, there will be rebirth. He and the entire great assembly were greatly delighted at having obtained what they never had before.
  http://www.e-sangha.com/alphone/shurangama.html

   

  ps: the essential nature together are known as �闻觉知.

  �属知�身属觉�眼属��耳属闻�鼻属嗅�舌属�,这些就是�闻觉知的性能。

  /\

   

• Rooney9

  4 Apr 11, 23:56

  how can self or soul be eternal, ever lasting, exist on its own? can you point out anything that is forever without changing? even your thought change all the time. Buddha has taught dependent origination, ie where there is a cause, there is an effect.

• gUms

  5 Apr 11, 03:27

  Everything has a soul, as long as it moves. There are many animals in this world that has come b4 us. They are more exprience then we humans are... Technically we Big sizes thats why we Humans yaya papaya.. Try dive into the pacific or atlantic ocean and see wheather the sharks gives a fark about us or the lions in the safari.

• sinweiy

  5 Apr 11, 08:43

  impermanence is permanent

• sinweiy

  5 Apr 11, 09:16

   

  Renewal of life
  By Venerable Shen-Kai (AEN's master)

  2. Is there really such a thing as soul?
  
  Yes, but we need to have a proper understanding of what it is.
  The human being has six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. These come into contact with the six qualities that are the cause of all impurities - form, sound, smell, taste, touch and idea. These are called the six dusts. When the six sense organs come into contact with the six dusts, they produce six sense-consciousnesses. In addition, there is the seventh consciousness and eight consciousness. The seventh consciousness is the ego (I) or mind-consciousness. It is also called the soul. The eighth consciousness is like a storehouse, wherein the countless seeds of our karma or deeds are stored.

  When we are asleep, the entire body is at rest and the first six consciousnesses are no longer in function. However, the seventh consciousness does not rest. It instigates the seeds of the eighth consciousness. This is how dreams come about, and the soul is the owner of the dreams.

  Notes 1. Chung-yin-shen (Chinese): literal translation is' intermediate invisible body' 2. Chuo-du (Chinese): to release the soul from purgatory; atone for wrong doings of the deceased, so that he may be reborn in a good realm. 3. Six realms: Realm of Heavens, Asura, Human, Animal, Ghost and Hell

  When a person passes away, the six sense organs no longer function. The soul transforms into an invisible and gaseous form or body. It is a intermediate existence between death and conception to the next life[1]. If one has been a person of great virtues, then in response to his good karma, the intermediate invisible body immediately ascends to the heavens. If on the other hand, he has been an evil person, then his evil karma will land him in hell immediately. In general, the good and evil karma committed by people are not in the extremes. Therefore this intermediate invisible body shall, for a period of up to 49 days, be drifting and searching for the condition for rebirth to the next life.

  Very often, people who had performed many good deeds in their lifetime cannot bear to part with their loved ones when they die, or they worry about their status and wealth. Such attachments cause them to transmigrate to the realm of ghosts; although because of their good karma they are better blessed ghosts.

  Performing good deeds is the basic aiding condition for rebirth in the realms of human, heavens, or in the pure land of Buddhas. It is indeed a pity that such people, because of their attachments become ghosts instead.

  Therefore, when the deceased is in the intermediate invisible stage, the most appropriate thing to do is to chant the Buddha's name or to recite the sutras, cultivate good deeds or blessings on the deceased's behalf so as to help him to be reborn in a good realm [2]. The other alternative is for a well cultivated Buddhist teacher to explain the Buddha-dharma to the intermediate invisible body so that the deceased knows to abandon the burden of his attachments, let go and disentangle himself and therefore rise to a higher realm.

  For people who are well cultivated, their intermediate invisible bodies transform into a bright light and they attain liberation. By liberation, it is meant that they are free from suffering of transmigrating in the six realms.

  
  
  3. What happens between death and rebirth?

  The soul transforms into an intermediate invisible body.
  Before the soul of a person who has died transmigrates to the next life, there is an intermediate existence in a gaseous form. It is invisible to the ordinary people at large. This mind-consciousness which is without a physical body is called 'chung-yin-shen' in Chinese.
  
  
  
  4. What are the differences between soul, chung-yin-shen(bardo), and mind- consciousness?

  They refer to an intermediate existence between death and transmigration to the next life.
  The word 'soul' actually originated from the Western culture. Chung-yin-shen and mind-consciousness are taught in Buddhism. When a person dies, his mind-consciousness will leave his body. Before he transmigrates to the next life, this mind-consciousness is called 'chung-yin-shen' in Chinese or 'intermediate existence' in English.
  
  
  

  5. What is transmigration?

  The constant arising of the mind is transmigration.
  A caterpillar wraps up itself and becomes a cocoon. It then emerges from the cocoon and becomes a butterfly. The beautiful butterfly lays eggs, which in turn become caterpillars, cocoon and so on…… This is similar to transmigration. As a result of ignorance and illusions, sentient beings are constantly in a state of transmigrating in the six realms [3] of existence: but, they are unaware of it.

  However, if you learn the Buddha's teachings, cultivate good deeds, purify your mind, and become enlightened, you will realize that not only is there transmigration after death, it is also taking place at this very moment. Thoughts continuously arise in the mind, one after another. At times the thoughts are good and they put you in the heavens. At other times, they are evil and cause you to descend to hell. We can say that, at every moment, our countless actions are all in the state of transmigration.

  Since our mind is constantly in a state of transmigration, then surely we will also transmigrate when we die. When you know this principle, you will realize the truth of the Buddha-dharma.
  
  
  

  6. Is it true that dead people can come back to their home seven days after their death?

  It is because his intermediate body has strong attachments.
  When a person has died and after seven days, 'he' comes back to his house, it is because his intermediate body has not found his next life. He is still searching for the conditions for rebirth. After a person has died, his mind-consciousness (commonly referred to as the soul) leaves his body. If the deceased cannot bear to part with his loved ones, or if he is attached to his material possessions and finds it difficult to part with them, then within the 49 days after his death, he will visit his home to see how things are. If within these 49 days, he does not have the appropriate conditions to be reborn, then naturally his attachments will cause him to transmigrate to the realm of ghosts.

  Therefore, the most appropriate thing to do is to guide him and perform merits on his behalf so that he can be reborn in a good realm [2].

  http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol5no2f.htm

  /\

• An Eternal Now

  5 Apr 11, 14:08

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

   

  Renewal of life
  By Venerable Shen-Kai (AEN's master)

  2. Is there really such a thing as soul?
  
  Yes, but we need to have a proper understanding of what it is.
  The human being has six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. These come into contact with the six qualities that are the cause of all impurities - form, sound, smell, taste, touch and idea. These are called the six dusts. When the six sense organs come into contact with the six dusts, they produce six sense-consciousnesses. In addition, there is the seventh consciousness and eight consciousness. The seventh consciousness is the ego (I) or mind-consciousness. It is also called the soul. The eighth consciousness is like a storehouse, wherein the countless seeds of our karma or deeds are stored.

  When we are asleep, the entire body is at rest and the first six consciousnesses are no longer in function. However, the seventh consciousness does not rest. It instigates the seeds of the eighth consciousness. This is how dreams come about, and the soul is the owner of the dreams.

  Notes 1. Chung-yin-shen (Chinese):
  literal translation is' intermediate invisible body' 2. Chuo-du (Chinese): to release the soul from purgatory; atone for wrong doings of the deceased, so that he may be reborn in a good realm. 3. Six realms: Realm of Heavens, Asura, Human, Animal, Ghost and Hell

  When a person passes away, the six sense organs no longer function. The soul transforms into an invisible and gaseous form or body. It is a intermediate existence between death and conception to the next life[1]. If one has been a person of great virtues, then in response to his good karma, the intermediate invisible body immediately ascends to the heavens. If on the other hand, he has been an evil person, then his evil karma will land him in hell immediately. In general, the good and evil karma committed by people are not in the extremes. Therefore this intermediate invisible body shall, for a period of up to 49 days, be drifting and searching for the condition for rebirth to the next life.

  Very often, people who had performed many good deeds in their lifetime cannot bear to part with their loved ones when they die, or they worry about their status and wealth. Such attachments cause them to transmigrate to the realm of ghosts; although because of their good karma they are better blessed ghosts.

  Performing good deeds is the basic aiding condition for rebirth in the realms of human, heavens, or in the pure land of Buddhas. It is indeed a pity that such people, because of their attachments become ghosts instead.

  Therefore, when the deceased is in the intermediate invisible stage, the most appropriate thing to do is to chant the Buddha's name or to recite the sutras, cultivate good deeds or blessings on the deceased's behalf so as to help him to be reborn in a good realm [2]. The other alternative is for a well cultivated Buddhist teacher to explain the Buddha-dharma to the intermediate invisible body so that the deceased knows to abandon the burden of his attachments, let go and disentangle himself and therefore rise to a higher realm.

  For people who are well cultivated, their intermediate invisible bodies transform into a bright light and they attain liberation. By liberation, it is meant that they are free from suffering of transmigrating in the six realms.

  
  
  3. What happens between death and rebirth?

  The soul transforms into an intermediate invisible body.
  Before the soul of a person who has died transmigrates to the next life, there is an intermediate existence in a gaseous form. It is invisible to the ordinary people at large. This mind-consciousness which is without a physical body is called 'chung-yin-shen' in Chinese.
  
  
  
  4. What are the differences between soul, chung-yin-shen(bardo), and mind- consciousness?

  They refer to an intermediate existence between death and transmigration to the next life.
  The word 'soul' actually originated from the Western culture. Chung-yin-shen and mind-consciousness are taught in Buddhism. When a person dies, his mind-consciousness will leave his body. Before he transmigrates to the next life, this mind-consciousness is called 'chung-yin-shen' in Chinese or 'intermediate existence' in English.
  
  
  

   

  5. What is transmigration?

  The constant arising of the mind is transmigration.
  A caterpillar wraps up itself and becomes a cocoon. It then emerges from the cocoon and becomes a butterfly. The beautiful butterfly lays eggs, which in turn become caterpillars, cocoon and so on…… This is similar to transmigration. As a result of ignorance and illusions, sentient beings are constantly in a state of transmigrating in the six realms [3] of existence: but, they are unaware of it.

  However, if you learn the Buddha's teachings, cultivate good deeds, purify your mind, and become enlightened, you will realize that not only is there transmigration after death, it is also taking place at this very moment. Thoughts continuously arise in the mind, one after another. At times the thoughts are good and they put you in the heavens. At other times, they are evil and cause you to descend to hell. We can say that, at every moment, our countless actions are all in the state of transmigration.

  Since our mind is constantly in a state of transmigration, then surely we will also transmigrate when we die. When you know this principle, you will realize the truth of the Buddha-dharma.
  
  
  

  6. Is it true that dead people can come back to their home seven days after their death?

  It is because his intermediate body has strong attachments.
  When a person has died and after seven days, 'he' comes back to his house, it is because his intermediate body has not found his next life. He is still searching for the conditions for rebirth. After a person has died, his mind-consciousness (commonly referred to as the soul) leaves his body. If the deceased cannot bear to part with his loved ones, or if he is attached to his material possessions and finds it difficult to part with them, then within the 49 days after his death, he will visit his home to see how things are. If within these 49 days, he does not have the appropriate conditions to be reborn, then naturally his attachments will cause him to transmigrate to the realm of ghosts.

  Therefore, the most appropriate thing to do is to guide him and perform merits on his behalf so that he can be reborn in a good realm [2].

  http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol5no2f.htm

  /\

  The 'soul' here is talking about the false self... an illusion conjured by consciousness. Not an independent, permanent, real self. It is precisely because of this delusion that we are reborn.

  It is said that Bodhisattvas do not dream (they do not the 7th consciousness). It is true. My master and dharma teacher reported not dreaming. Thusness also reported the same thing. I still have dreams sometimes...

• Millenium Falcon

  5 Apr 11, 14:13

  I believe my soul will leave my body when I die.

• sinweiy

  5 Apr 11, 15:22

  ya, arhats also have dreams. should be good dreams, no bad dreams. i also still have good dreams sometimes, no more bad dreams. our MCK also. now i don't know.

  i think most ppl cannot remember whether have dream or not. as there's a transitions,  between deep sleep and when a person is going to wake up? sometimes by the time one is going to wake up, one already forgot the dream. i tried using alarm clock to suddenly wake up during deep sleep to cut off the dreaming process, so that the dream is still fresh in the mind. :)

   

  anyway to add on mana.

   

  9/ SEVENTH CONSCIOUSNESS
  The seventh consciousness obscures a person's true nature with the ego concept of "I". It is also known as the "defiling/transmitter consciousness" because it is the home of the illusory "...ego individuality with which it defiles the first six consciousnesses..." by obscuring them with its concepts of self. The seventh consciousness also defiles the eighth consciousness by attributing to it characteristics of a real "self" that exists in space and time.
  The seventh's mode of knowledge is fallacy [11] caused by its innate attachments [21]. Since the seventh consciousness bases its decisions on relative, defiled knowledge from the dharma of judgment, it is built on false assumptions which give it four types of delusion; pride of self, self-love, self-delusion, and self-conceit. It also supports the eight major-grade derivative afflictions (laziness, distraction, lack of faith, etc.).

  http://purifymind.com/YogacaraBuddhism.htm

  Ven Shen Kai mentioned of a story, 8 brothers together in the womb. one's a cunning (mana), one's a fool (alaya).  the cunning one wants both good and bad. 5 bros go outside doing businesses. 6th do the account/sorting for the 5 bros, judging that this is good, and that is bad. 

   

   

   

   

  though, ya, this mana/7th consciousness need to be transform into equality wisdom.

  heard,

   

  "The sixth and seventh consciousnesses are transformed at the level of cause. The first five consciousnesses and the eighth consciousnesses are transformed at the level of effect."
  
  The sixth and seventh consciousnesses are easy to transform. Once thoughts are empty, and past, present, and future are emptied out, the sixth consciousness is transformed into a pure illuminated realm of immediate awareness. If your meditation work advances further, the seventh consciousness can also be emptied out. This is easy: it is a transformation at the level of causal basis. Many people who cultivate practice reach at most to the station of bodhisattvas at the level of the causal basis.
  Transformation at the level of effect is difficult. The first five consciousnesses, the consciousnesses associated with the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body, encompass this physical body. The eighth consciousness, the alaya consciousness, encompasses not only the physical body, but the whole material world. The first five and the eighth consciousnesses can be transformed only when the level of effect is complete, only when you have realized the level of the fruit of enlightenment.

  /\

   

• sinweiy

  5 Apr 11, 15:27

  Originally posted by Millenium Falcon:

  I believe my soul will leave my body when I die.

  
  there're

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_death_experience

• Rooney9

  5 Apr 11, 17:23

  christians, catholic and other religions do not and will not understand the no self or soul in Buddhism. this is the unique teaching of buddhism that sets apart from other religions.

• Millenium Falcon

  5 Apr 11, 17:39

  I have some interest in buddhism but I am scared God will punish me and I will lose my salvation and a place in eternal heaven.

• 2009novice

  5 Apr 11, 19:39

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  The 'soul' here is talking about the false self... an illusion conjured by consciousness. Not an independent, permanent, real self. It is precisely because of this delusion that we are reborn.

  It is said that Bodhisattvas do not dream (they do not the 7th consciousness). It is true. My master and dharma teacher reported not dreaming. Thusness also reported the same thing. I still have dreams sometimes...

  
  this is interesting...

• 2009novice

  5 Apr 11, 19:43

  Originally posted by kuji-in:

  i was talking to a christian fren.

  He told me that animals do not have a soul and it is ok to slaughter animals because it will not feel any pain.

  i was very upset with his answer. i told him, if he use a stick to beat a dog, would the dog not whine?

  we argue over the matter.

  So, fellow buddhist frens, what is your take on the matter?

  
  Actually.... put religion aside, animals can feel pain because of the nervous systems right? Humans are animals (to put it simply). Why can't other animals feel pain too?

• Millenium Falcon

  5 Apr 11, 19:51

  Originally posted by 2009novice:

  
  Actually.... put religion aside, animals can feel pain because of the nervous systems right? Humans are animals (to put it simply). Why can't other animals feel pain too?

  
  Of course animals can feel pain. They have nervous system.

• An Eternal Now

  5 Apr 11, 20:35

  Originally posted by Millenium Falcon:

  I have some interest in buddhism but I am scared God will punish me and I will lose my salvation and a place in eternal heaven.

  

  
  Do Buddhists believe in a god?

  
  No, we do not. There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origins in fear. The Buddha says:

  Gripped by fear people go to sacred mountains, sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines.
  Dp. 188

  Primitive humans found selves in a dangerous and hostile world, the fear of wild animals, of not being able to find enough food, of injury or disease, and of natural phenomena like thunder, lightning and volcanoes were constantly with them. Finding no security, they created the idea of gods in order to give them comfort in good times, courage in times of danger and consolation when things went wrong. To this day, you will notice that people become more religious at times of crises, you will hear them say that the belief in a god or gods gives them the strength they need to deal with life. You will hear them explain that they believe in a particular god because they prayed in time of need and their prayer was answered. All this seems to support the Buddha's teaching that the god-idea is a response to fear and frustration. The Buddha taught us to try to understand our fears, to lessen our desires and to calmly and courageously accept the things we cannot change. He replaced fear, not with irrational belief but with rational understanding.

  The second reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is because there does not seem to be any evidence to support this idea. There are numerous religions, all claiming that they alone have god's words preserved in their holy book, that they alone understand god's nature, that their god exists and that the gods of other religions do not. Some claim that god is masculine, some that she is feminine and others that it is neuter. They are all satisfied that there is ample evidence to prove the existence of their god but they laugh in disbelief at the evidence other religions use to prove the existence of another god. It is not surprising that with so many different religions spending so many centuries trying to prove the existence of their gods that still no real, concrete, substantial or irrefutable evidence has been found. Buddhists suspend judgement until such evidence is forthcoming.

  The third reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is that the belief is not necessary. Some claim that the belief in a god is necessary in order to explain the origin of the universe. But this is not so. Science has very convincingly explained how the universe came into being without having to introduce the god-idea. Some claim that belief in god is necessary to have a happy, meaningful life. Again we can see that this is not so. There are millions of atheists and free-thinkers, not to mention many Buddhists, who live useful, happy and meaningful lives without belief in a god. Some claim that belief in god's power is necessary because humans, being weak, do not have the strength to help themselves. Once again, the evidence indicates the opposite. One often hears of people who have overcome great disabilities and handicaps, enormous odds and difficulties through their own inner resources, through their own efforts and without belief in a god. Some claim that god is necessary in order to give man salvation. But this argument only holds good if you accept the theological concept of salvation and Buddhists do not accept such a concept. Based on his own experience, the Buddha saw that each human being had the capacity to purify the mind, develop infinite love and compassion and perfect understanding. He shifted attention from the heavens to the heart and encouraged us to find solutions to our problems through self-understanding.

  
  But if there are no gods how did the universe get here?

  
  All religions have myths and stories which attempt to answer this question. In ancient times, when humankind simply did not know, such myths were adequate, but in the 20th century, in the age of physics, astronomy and geology, such myths have been superseded by scientific fact. Science has explained the origin of the universe without recourse to the god-idea.

  
  What does the Buddha say about the origin of the universe?

  
  It is interesting that the Buddha's explanation of the origin of the universe corresponds very closely to the scientific view. In the Aganna Sutta, the Buddha describes the universe being destroyed and then re-evolving into its present form over a period of countless millions of years. The first life formed on the surface of the water and again, over countless millions of years, evolved from simple into complex organisms. All these processes are without beginning or end and are set in motion by natural causes.

  
  You say there is no evidence for the existence of a god. But what about miracles?

  
  There are many who believe that miracles are proof of god's existence. We hear wild claims that a healing has taken place but we never get an independent testimony from a medical office or a surgeon. We hear second-hand reports that someone was miraculously saved from disaster but we never get an eyewitness account of what is supposed to have happened. We hear rumors that prayer straightened a diseased body or strengthened a withered limb, but we never see X-rays or get comments from doctors or nurses. Wild claims, second-hand reports and rumors are no substitute for solid evidence and solid evidence of miracles is very rare. However, sometimes unexplained things do happen, unexpected events do occur. But our inability to explain such things does not prove the existence of gods. It only proves that our knowledge is as yet incomplete. Before the development of modern medicine, when people didn't know what caused sickness people believed that god or the gods sent diseases as a punishment. Now we know what causes such things and when we get sick, we take medicine. In time when our knowledge of the world is more complete, we will be able to understand what causes unexplained phenomena, just as we can now understand what causes disease.

  
  But so many people believe in some form of god, it must be true.

  
  Not so. There was a time when everyone believed that the world was flat, but they were all wrong. The number of people who believe in an idea is no measure of the truth or falsehood of that idea. The only way we can tell whether an idea is true or not is by looking at the facts and examining the evidence.

  
  So if Buddhists don't believe in gods, what do you believe in?

  
  We don't believe in a god because we believe in humanity. We believe that each human being is precious and important, that all have the potential to develop into a Buddha - a perfected human being. We believe that humans can outgrow ignorance and irrationality and see things as they really are. We believe that hatred, anger, spite and jealousy can be replaced by love, patience, generosity and kindness. We believe that all this is within the grasp of each person if they make the effort, guided and supported by fellow Buddhists and inspired by the example of the Buddha. As the Buddha says:

  No one saves us but ourselves, No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path, but Buddhas clearly show the way.
  Dp. 165