Death, Consciousness, Nondual Perception

sofital

5 May 08, 16:55

From my experience, When I encounter the painfulness from the leg, just aware of arising of painfulness and perishing of painfulness where painfulness occcurred. Depending on the concentration of mind, changes of arising and perishing of painfulness state happen so fast, what I realize is that body tell me arising and perishing of painfulness is suffering. Arising of painfulness is birth state and perishing of painfulness is death state. Hence observe the painfulness is imparmanent. There is no "I" or "Mine" in the painfulness state.To remove the attachment to painfulness slowly, don't let know my mind the painfulness form.There is no painfulness in the world.The painfulness is naming convention absorbed in the mind.Only let know the feeling of painfulness to my mind.Be aware of feeling of painfulness arise and perish every second.Review myself what is effect of painfulness in the consequent mind based on cause and effect theory? The cause of painfulness will happen anger ,annoying and hatred of defilement occurred.Hence when I always stay and aware of cause state of the feeling of painfulness , the effect of anger ,annoying and hatred of defilement never happen.It is realized that I break the cause and effect of mind state.I'm free from cause and effect of mind state.And then continuing to the end, knowing of arising and perishing of feeling of painfulness totally disappeared for a few second The mind cling to nothing state.The result is freedom of birth and death of feeling of painfulness.

An Eternal Now

5 May 08, 17:59

Originally posted by sofital:

From my experience, When I encounter the painfulness from the leg, just aware of arising of painfulness and perishing of painfulness where painfulness occcurred. Depending on the concentration of mind, changes of arising and perishing of painfulness state happen so fast, what I realize is that body tell me arising and perishing of painfulness is suffering. Arising of painfulness is birth state and perishing of painfulness is death state. Hence observe the painfulness is imparmanent. There is no “I” or “Mine” in the painfulness state.To remove the attachment to painfulness slowly, don’t let know my mind the painfulness form.There is no painfulness in the world.The painfulness is naming convention absorbed in the mind.Only let know the feeling of painfulness to my mind.Be aware of feeling of painfulness arise and perish every second.Review myself what is effect of painfulness in the consequent mind based on cause and effect theory? The cause of painfulness will happen anger ,annoying and hatred of defilement occurred.Hence when I always stay and aware of cause state of the feeling of painfulness , the effect of anger ,annoying and hatred of defilement never happen.It is realized that I break the cause and effect of mind state.I’m free from cause and effect of mind state.And then continuing to the end, knowing of arising and perishing of feeling of painfulness totally disappeared for a few second The mind cling to nothing state.The result is freedom of birth and death of feeling of painfulness.

IMHO, from what Thusness have often told me -- just the pure sensation of the pain is enough. There is no need to derive anything from the pain. Just pure sensation. There is no reason about impermanence, just so. Allow impermanance to be as it is.

Any mental note and conceptual conclusion (even related to the dharma seals -- this is impermanent, this is suffering, this is not-self) just let it go and stay with the pure sensation. For in truth the dharma seals lies/exhibits entirely in that moment of manifestation, ungraspable by thought.

As Thusness have told me last year:

(12:21 AM) Thusness: what is the role of insight meditation?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why bare attention?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why naked awareness?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: when insight meditation is taught and buddha said when hearing jsut the sound...this and that...
(12:23 AM) Thusness: what buddha wanted is to experience directly what awareness is, the arising, the ceasing, the clarity, the non-dual nature
(12:23 AM) Thusness: in DO (dependent origination)
(12:24 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: not to note it with thought or place any conclusion on any experience.
(12:25 AM) Thusness: "this is impermanence" is not about noting and place any conclusion about an phenomenon arising.
(12:26 AM) Thusness: but experience impermanence directly, not in words
(12:26 AM) AEN_____: icic.. yea
(12:26 AM) Thusness: be impermanence and know what is it really...
(12:26 AM) Thusness: see what clarity is, not what it should be
(12:27 AM) Thusness: it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so.
(12:27 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:27 AM) Thusness: break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus.

sofital

5 May 08, 18:49

We need to derive the cause and effect state from painfulness.If we are not aware of transient cause and effect of mind, how to escape from Samsara? There are different methods for VipassanÄ�-kammaá¹á¹hÄ�na. Effect of painfulness ----->anger,unhappiness and hatred of defilements The painfulness is name convention absorbed in the mind. Here is the difference between normal person and Ariya person. I translate it from Theinngu ' Arahart experience on knowledge of first enlighenement.If there is any mistake on translation , please amend it. For the same thing, When one see the object , his mind first is inclined to the name of object (for normal person) e.g computer,bed, chair,clock, cloth is the name of object seen When one see the object, his mind first is inclined to knowing of matter seen by removing the name of object seen(for Ariya person) When one hear the sound,his mind first inclined to the name of sound e.g dog sound, cat sound, movie sound, music sound is the name of object heard. When one hear the object ,his mind first is inclined to knowing of sound heard,by removing the name of object heard. When one sense the smell, his mind first inclined to the name of smell e.g rotten smell, perfume smell, alcohol smell, fruit smell is the name of smell when one sense the smell, his mind first is inclined to knowing of smell smelled by removing the name of object smelled When one's tongue touch the taste, his mind first is inclined to name of taste e.g mango taste, chicken taste, port taste, sweet taste is the name taste When one 's tongue touch the taste, his mind first is inclined to knowing of taste by removing the name of object tasted. When one's body touch the object,his mind first is inclined to name of feeling of touch e.g sexual touch, touch on carpet, touch on different object is the name of touch When one' body touch the object, his mind first is inclined to knowing of touch contacted by removing the name of object touch contacted. When one think something in the mind, his mind first is inclined to name of something in the mind. e.g thinking of studies,thinking of someone,thinking of what to do is name of thought absorbed in the mind When one think something in the mind ,his mind first is inclined to knowing of thought by removing the name of thought absorbed in the mind

An Eternal Now

6 May 08, 01:23

Originally posted by sofital:

We need to derive the cause and effect state from painfulness.If we are not aware of transient cause and effect of mind, how to escape from Samsara? There are different methods for VipassanÄ�-kammaá¹á¹hÄ�na.

Effect of painfulness —->anger,unhappiness and hatred of defilements

The painfulness is name convention absorbed in the mind.
Here is the difference between normal person and Ariya person. I translate it from Theinngu ’ Arahart experience on knowledge of first enlighenement.If there is any mistake on translation , please amend it.

For the same thing,
When one see the object , his mind first is inclined to the name of object (for normal person)
e.g computer,bed, chair,clock, cloth is the name of object seen
When one see the object, his mind first is inclined to knowing of matter seen by removing the name of object seen(for Ariya person)

When one hear the sound,his mind first inclined to the name of sound
e.g dog sound, cat sound, movie sound, music sound is the name of object heard.
When one hear the object ,his mind first is inclined to knowing of sound heard,by removing the name of object heard.

When one sense the smell, his mind first inclined to the name of smell
e.g rotten smell, perfume smell, alcohol smell, fruit smell is the name of smell
when one sense the smell, his mind first is inclined to knowing of smell smelled by removing the name of object smelled

When one’s tongue touch the taste, his mind first is inclined to name of taste
e.g mango taste, chicken taste, port taste, sweet taste is the name taste
When one ’s tongue touch the taste, his mind first is inclined to knowing of taste by removing the name of object tasted.

When one’s body touch the object,his mind first is inclined to name of feeling of touch
e.g sexual touch, touch on carpet, touch on different object is the name of touch
When one’ body touch the object, his mind first is inclined to knowing of touch contacted by removing the name of object touch contacted.

When one think something in the mind, his mind first is inclined to name of something in the mind.
e.g thinking of studies,thinking of someone,thinking of what to do is name of thought absorbed in the mind
When one think something in the mind ,his mind first is inclined to knowing of thought by removing the name of thought absorbed in the mind

Yes. What I mean is the awareness of cause and effect (or any other nanas, or impermanence, etc) does not come from mentally noting or placing a conclusion of an experience but from momentary observation until the natural insight and absorption arise, known as the 2nd nana into cause and effect. It means that the insight will naturally dawn and become apparent as the practitioner enters into deeper and deeper clarity into one's experience and is not a derived mental note or conclusion of certain experience.

Not to try to 'mentally understand' what impermanence means or what cause and effect is... just continue noting/observing/experiencing until the level of insight and clarity manifest. The insight/clarity will come almost like a mental absorption and is distinct in each stage, and the mental and physical manifestation becomes particularly spectacular in the 4th Nana (the nana of arising and passing) characterised by bright lights, bliss, effortless clarity and silence, strange breathing patterns, visions, powers, energy, Kundalini, vibrations, meditating while dreaming, vortices, powerful bliss, spontaneus movements, deep releases, sexual feelings, sense of unity, etc etc... but these nanas are insight absorptions (vipassana jhanas) and thus do not stay or last unlike the samatha jhanas. I believe you have had some of the experiences. Anyway what is important for a Vipassana practitioner is to continue experiencing each and every single arising and subsiding pure sensation with precision.. simply pure experience that transcends words and logic. Then the progressive nanas will come naturally.

http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/F46A4E80-C4FF-43C3-B6FF-5708E9E4CA15.html

2. Cause and Effect

In this stage, the relationships between mental and physical phenomena become very clear and sometimes ratchet-like. The joy and wonder of Mind and Body have left, and now the interactions between the mind and body become somewhat mechanical seeming. Motions such as walking or the breath may begin to get jerky, as there is the intention and the motion, the sensation and the mental impression of it, the cause and the effect, all occurring in a way which can seem sort of tight and robot-like. You note, the breath moves just a bit. You stop noting, the breath stops. You note quickly, the breath jerks quickly. You note slowly, the breath follows. Some will stop noting quickly or stop noting at all, thinking that they are messing up the breath. The advice here is as before: note quickly, and don’t worry about what the breath does.

Remember how I recommended trying to experience one to ten sensations per second consistently, noting which were mental and which were physical? At this stage, the meditator is finally able to do this with a fair degree of skill, confidence and consistency. As the meditator becomes more clear about the beginnings and endings of each of these, about the irritation caused by this jerkiness and about the fact that all of this seems to be happening fairly on its own, they come to directly perceive for themselves...

An Eternal Now

6 May 08, 02:00

Maybe Thusness can explain what he meant by "just the pure sensation of the pain is enough. There is no need to derive anything from the pain. Just pure sensation. There is no reason about impermanence, just so. Allow impermanance to be as it is."

I'm not too sure as well.

sofital

6 May 08, 10:17

You are right.The awareness of cause and effect (or any other nanas, or impermanence, etc) does not come from mentally noting or placing a conclusion of an experience but from momentary observation until the natural insight and absorption arise, known as the 2nd nana into cause and effect. Example, while one is watching the movie, he will know characteristics, quality and behaviour every actors and actresses in the movie. For the same, while one is aware of and concentrate on body and mind, he will know the changes of degree on sensation of painfulness.If one is already stay on and aware of sensation of painfulness, this causes no more absorbing in name of painfulness.This is not a derived mental note or conclusion of certain experience. We are not rejecting to use the name convention .The name convention on object is important to communicate with people, to understand the what the people ,to study the subjects and so on. But we are removing the absorbing of name convention in the mind. Example,you know, in this world every day, thousand of peope are dying due to their diseases, illness , different accident, mental stress,etc .Do one feels anything in the mind because of their dying. " NO" Do one feels sad and grief in the mind because of his parents 's death? "YES" Because of his mind aborbing in parent's name and parent, he feels sad and grief.Actually the name is given to matters by all the human for knowing the matters. The name of body such as stanley, Bo Bo, Peter, James ,etc is not real Dhamma. The relation to each other given to body such as father,mother, brother,sister, friends,etc is not real Dhamma. Hence the name convention is not real Dhamma.The real Dhamma is body (matter) and mind. In Pa Auk master's method of VipassanÄ�-kammaá¹á¹hÄ�na, for a beginner to start meditation, master ask beginner to start from Samatha-kammaá¹á¹hÄ�na. The beginner need to practice on concentration of mind (jhÄ�na) from one to fourth stages in Pa Auk forest. The beginner who already passed the fourth stages use the bright light coming from the body to review the previous many life , to see the fine particles and organs in the body and to see Sensuous , fine material and States of Deprivation (apaya) for the purpose of VipassanÄ�-kammaá¹á¹hÄ�na .And then master ask them to start the VipassanÄ�-kammaá¹á¹hÄ�na after they passed the fourth stages.

An Eternal Now

6 May 08, 11:19

I see.. thanks for the sharing :)

sofital

6 May 08, 12:21

Thanks ....Apart from this topic, wanna to ask one question when is the starting point of a person or creature in Samsara or cycles of rebirth life ?

An Eternal Now

6 May 08, 12:54

Originally posted by sofital:

Thanks ….Apart from this topic, wanna to ask one question
when is the starting point of a person or creature in Samsara or cycles of rebirth life ?

There is no starting point, every moment is a starting point.

The world exists only when we think about it; creation stories are for children. In reality the world is created every moment. ~ Jean Klein

sofital

6 May 08, 16:28

I means the starting point of a person is that Buddha will review his previous many lifes.When will be the previous many life end?

sofital

6 May 08, 17:19

From the starting point of Samsara until present life ,how many previous lifes in Samsara?

An Eternal Now

6 May 08, 18:20

Originally posted by sofital:

From the starting point of Samsara until present life ,how many previous lifes in Samsara?

There is no starting point.

An Eternal Now

6 May 08, 18:20

Originally posted by sofital:

I means the starting point of a person is that Buddha will review his previous many lifes.When will be the previous many life end?

Limitless

An Eternal Now

6 May 08, 19:56

Originally posted by Thusness:

Not yet. The dissolving of 'I' and 'death' must include both the experience of luminosity and 'losing of consciousness'. However it is not the right time now, have the right understanding of these experiences first. :)

Lastly practice 'dropping, èˆ�' during meditation.

Happy Journey!

Surrender and Understanding

Finally, ultimately, (when it comes to spiritual enlightenment) the surrender and the Understanding are the same, even if they are apparently, in perception or experience, separated chronologically.

The very concept of 'the total Understanding' necessarily includes surrender, for it begins with the willingness, "Thy will be done;" and ends in seeing that one is not.

Thus there is a sensed rightness in the idea that humility in some form is a mark of a true sage; an intuitive sense that if one doesn't have a sense of humor about themselves and about what is happening, it is highly unlikely that awakening has occurred.

Taking oneself too seriously may be a fairly good sign that there has not been the giving up, the surrendering, of the false idea that one actually exists (as a separate entity).

Doubts about the authenticity of certain teachers often boil down to this: that while they may have an excellent understanding of the teachings, it is the complete surrender of the sense of individual self that has perhaps not occurred.

In this phenomenality of duality, there is always the flip side, the complementary opposite that completes. Male-female, Shiva-Shakti, jnana-bhakti, understanding surrender. Disdaining one or the other misses truth.

Despite traditions to the contrary, there simply cannot be true jnana without true bhakta, there cannot be the ultimate understanding without the ultimate surrender. Certain personalities will try to avoid one or the other under the guise of some higher wisdom, but always at the cost of wholeness.

There is a tradition that jnana is the higher path because the bhakta relies on a belief in someone or something to be devoted to, whereas the jnani knows there is neither. But true bhakti is pure devotion with no object; and the true jnani knows nothing.

Jnana and bhakta, knowledge and devotion, understanding and surrender, inseeing and outpouring, mind and heart, cannot be divided or opposed; because they are the same.

"The essential basis of self realization is the total rejection of the individual as an independent entity, whether it comes as a spontaneous undersnding or through an utter surrender of one's individual existence." ~ Ramesh Balsekar

It can be seen that the path of the bhakti in devotion leading to surrender, and that of the jnani in knowledge leading to understanding, meet when each takes the final step.

The ultimate surrender is the total Understanding; the complete Understanding is the utter surrender unto death of the individual self.

Jesus: "Only he who loses his life will find it." Again, "Not' my will, but Thine be done," because it is understood that there is no 'mine,' no 'me' to will.

It is the surrender of all vestiges of the sense of the individual person, including, ironic as it may seem, all those hopes and dreams and prayers of ever becoming a good or better person or a person other people might love or like or be drawn to. It is the complete surrender into 'This Is All That Is.'

And yes, that final surrender, that total Understanding is sudden and happens once. And that once is now. And that now is eternal.

From, Brilliant Perfect Stillness, by David Carse You may like to see our page on The Supreme Worship

sofital

6 May 08, 22:54

I'm not sure answer for other resources. In Pali ,Buddhas said he know the starting point of body and mind.The starting point is rebirth due to karma in Samsara. To count the number of previous many lifes , if Buddha would have reviewed the previous many lifes for one person from the Buddha age of 35 years until his age of 80 years old, he could not finish counting of previous many lifes. This is the same as counting of how many water drops in the ocean.

rokkie

7 May 08, 13:29

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

There is no starting point.

i remember a movie i saw ,in india there is a picture ,a snake ,it head bite it's nail ,so it form a cycle ,which means there is no starting or ending ,starting is the ending

sofital

7 May 08, 14:53

Even Buddha count not finish counting of previous many lifes for one person during the Buddha's life.Buddha said all the sensible beings in Thirty-one Planes of Existence have the relationships to each other like parents,brothers,sisters,mother in law,grandparents,friends and so on in one of their many previous lifes in Samsara. I think there is no meaning to know the starting point of many previous lifes for one person. For perfect meaning is to know the starting point of body and mind in Samsara.There is the key point to kill the Karma that creates the starting point of body and mind in Samsara.

extra one

7 May 08, 15:25

Originally posted by rokkie:

i remember a movie i saw ,in india there is a picture ,a snake ,it head bite it's nail ,so it form a cycle ,which means there is no starting or ending ,starting is the ending

ximalayaxing?

rokkie

7 May 08, 16:00

Originally posted by extra one:

ximalayaxing?

yes lol

rokkie

7 May 08, 16:00

Originally posted by extra one:

ximalayaxing?

yes lol

sofital

8 May 08, 00:37

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

IMHO, from what Thusness have often told me -- just the pure sensation of the pain is enough. There is no need to derive anything from the pain. Just pure sensation. There is no reason about impermanence, just so. Allow impermanance to be as it is.

Any mental note and conceptual conclusion (even related to the dharma seals -- this is impermanent, this is suffering, this is not-self) just let it go and stay with the pure sensation. For in truth the dharma seals lies/exhibits entirely in that moment of manifestation, ungraspable by thought.

As Thusness have told me last year:

(12:21 AM) Thusness: what is the role of insight meditation?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why bare attention?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why naked awareness?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: when insight meditation is taught and buddha said when hearing jsut the sound...this and that...
(12:23 AM) Thusness: what buddha wanted is to experience directly what awareness is, the arising, the ceasing, the clarity, the non-dual nature
(12:23 AM) Thusness: in DO (dependent origination)
(12:24 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: not to note it with thought or place any conclusion on any experience.
(12:25 AM) Thusness: "this is impermanence" is not about noting and place any conclusion about an phenomenon arising.
(12:26 AM) Thusness: but experience impermanence directly, not in words
(12:26 AM) AEN_____: icic.. yea
(12:26 AM) Thusness: be impermanence and know what is it really...
(12:26 AM) Thusness: see what clarity is, not what it should be
(12:27 AM) Thusness: it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so.
(12:27 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:27 AM) Thusness: break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus.

THE TWO SACCAS OR THE TWO TRUTHS Sacca or Truth is the constant faithfulness or concordance of the term which names a thing, to or with that thing's intrincic nature. It is of two kinds, to wit: 1. Sammuti-sacca, conventional or relative truth. 2. Paramattha-sacca, or ultimate Truth. Of the two, conventional truth is the truthfulness of the customary terms used by the great majority of people, such as "Self exists", "a living soul exists" "men exist", "Devas exist", "Sakkas exist", "elephants exist", "head exists" and so on. This conventional truth is the opposite of untruth, and so can overcome it. It is not a lie or an untruth when people say: "There probably exists an immutable, permanent, one continuous self or living soul which is neither momentarily rising nor passing away throughout one existence," for this is the customary manner of speech of the great majority of people who have no intention whatever of deceiving others. But according to ultimate truth, it is reckond a Vippallasa or hallucination which erroneously regards impermanent as permanent and non-self as self. So long as this erroneous view remains undestroyed, one can never escape from the evils of Samsara, the wheel of life. All of the foregoing alike holds good when people say "a person exists" and so on. Ultimate truth is the absolute truthfulness of assertion or negative in full and complete accordance with what is actual, the elementary, fundamental qualities of phenomena. Here stating such truth in affirmative form, one may say:"The element of solidity exists", "the element of extension exists", "the element of cohesion exists", "the element of kinetic energy exists", "mind exists" "consciousness exists", "contact, feeling and perception exist", "material aggregates exist" and so on. And expressing such truth in a negative form, it can be said: "No self exists", "no living soul exists", no person exists", "no being exists", "neither does an elephant exist", "nor do hands, nor legs, nor any members of the body exist", "neither does a man exist nor a Deva" and so on. In saying here "No self exists" "no living soul exists" we mean that there is no such ultimate entity as a self or living soul which persists unchanged during the whole term of life, without momentarily coming to be and passing away. In the expression: "No being exists" and so forth, what is meant is that nothing actually exists but material and mental elements. These elements are neither persons nor beings, nor men, nor Devas etc. Therefore there is seperate being or person apart from the elements. The ultimate truth is the diametrical opposite of the hallucination, and so can confute it. One who is thus able to confute or reject the hallucination can escape from the evils of Samsara, the evolution of life. According to conventional truth, a person exists, a being exists; a person or a being continually transmigrates from one existence to another in the ocean of life. But to ultimate truth, neither a person nor a being exists, and there is no one who transmigrates from one existence to another. Here, it may be asked: "Do not these two truths seem to be as poles asunder?" Of course they seem to be so. Nevertheless we may bring them together. Have we not said: "According to conventional truth" and "according to ultimate truth"? Each kind of truth accordingly is truthful as regards its own mode of expression. Hence if one man should say that there exists a person or a being according to conventional truth, the other to whom he speaks ought not to contradict him, for these conventional terms describe what apparently exists. And likewise, if the other says there exists neither a person nor a being, according to ultimate truth, the former ought not to deny this, for in the ultimate sense, material and mental phenomena alone truly exist and in strict reality they know no person or being. For example: Men dig up lumps of earth from certain places, pound them into dust, knead this dust with water into clay, and from this clay make various kinds of useful pots, jars and cups. Thus there exist various kinds of pots, jars and cups in the world. Now when discussion takes place on this subject, if it were asked: "Are there earthen pots and cups in this world?" The answer, according to the conventional truth should be given in the affirmative, and according to the ultimate truth, in the negative, since this kind of truth admits only the positive existence of earth out of which the pots and so forth were made. Of these two answers the former requires no explanation in as much as it is an answer according to the established usage; but as regards the latter, some explanation is needed. In the objects that we called "earthen pots" and "earthen cups", what really exists is only earth; not pots nor cups, in the sense of ultimate truth: because the term "earth" applies properly not to pots and cups but to actual substantial earth. There are also pots and cups made of iron brass, silver, and gold. These cannot be called earthen pots and cups, since they are not made of earth. The term "pots" and "cups" also are not terms descriptive of earth but of ideas derived from the appearance of pots and cups, such as their circular or sperical shape and so on. This is obvious, because the terms "pots" and "cups" are not applied to the mere lumps of earth which have no shape or form of pots and cups. Hence it follows that the term "earth" is not a term descriptive of pots and cups, but of real earth; and also the terms "pots" and "cups" are not terms descrptive of earth but of pictorial ideas (santhana-pannati) which have no separate elementary substance other than the dust of clay, but are mere conceptions presented to the mind by the particular appearance, form, and shape of the worked-up clay. Hence the negative statement according to the ultimate truth, namely, that "no earthen pots and cups exist" ought to be accepted without question.

An Eternal Now

8 May 08, 01:19

Thanks for sharing :)

An Eternal Now

8 May 08, 01:22

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Surrender and Understanding

Finally, ultimately, (when it comes to spiritual enlightenment) the surrender and the Understanding are the same, even if they are apparently, in perception or experience, separated chronologically.

The very concept of 'the total Understanding' necessarily includes surrender, for it begins with the willingness, "Thy will be done;" and ends in seeing that one is not.

Thus there is a sensed rightness in the idea that humility in some form is a mark of a true sage; an intuitive sense that if one doesn't have a sense of humor about themselves and about what is happening, it is highly unlikely that awakening has occurred.

Taking oneself too seriously may be a fairly good sign that there has not been the giving up, the surrendering, of the false idea that one actually exists (as a separate entity).

Doubts about the authenticity of certain teachers often boil down to this: that while they may have an excellent understanding of the teachings, it is the complete surrender of the sense of individual self that has perhaps not occurred.

In this phenomenality of duality, there is always the flip side, the complementary opposite that completes. Male-female, Shiva-Shakti, jnana-bhakti, understanding surrender. Disdaining one or the other misses truth.

Despite traditions to the contrary, there simply cannot be true jnana without true bhakta, there cannot be the ultimate understanding without the ultimate surrender. Certain personalities will try to avoid one or the other under the guise of some higher wisdom, but always at the cost of wholeness.

There is a tradition that jnana is the higher path because the bhakta relies on a belief in someone or something to be devoted to, whereas the jnani knows there is neither. But true bhakti is pure devotion with no object; and the true jnani knows nothing.

Jnana and bhakta, knowledge and devotion, understanding and surrender, inseeing and outpouring, mind and heart, cannot be divided or opposed; because they are the same.

It can be seen that the path of the bhakti in devotion leading to surrender, and that of the jnani in knowledge leading to understanding, meet when each takes the final step.

The ultimate surrender is the total Understanding; the complete Understanding is the utter surrender unto death of the individual self.

Jesus: "Only he who loses his life will find it." Again, "Not' my will, but Thine be done," because it is understood that there is no 'mine,' no 'me' to will.

It is the surrender of all vestiges of the sense of the individual person, including, ironic as it may seem, all those hopes and dreams and prayers of ever becoming a good or better person or a person other people might love or like or be drawn to. It is the complete surrender into 'This Is All That Is.'

And yes, that final surrender, that total Understanding is sudden and happens once. And that once is now. And that now is eternal.

From, Brilliant Perfect Stillness, by David Carse You may like to see our page on The Supreme Worship

Just now in meditation suddenly I had an intuition of what complete surrender is like...

It's like... completely surrendering the individual self... along with it the illusion of personal doership or a 'controller'. What happens is this... you realise you are not an individual entity, you are the whole... you are vast and infinite and spacious and not confined to a particular thing or thoughts... you are the universe in its entirety. And you 'release' into that.

And these bodily actions, and movements, thoughts, etc that continue to arise are really the doing of the whole universe... its the universe scrubbing the stain off... the universe eating the apple...

And utter surrender is just this 'alignment' with universe-eating-apple... with the Whole... I'm not too sure if I'm right by saying this.

BTW while I was trying to 'let go into the infinite' I had this weird experience of a sense of energy rising in my body and strong bliss coupled with a very strong sensation of heat and warmth growing hotter and hotter... even though the room is very cold. Similar to Tummo practice perhaps. But then after the sensation of warmth passed, I felt strangely cold and started shivering... LOL. But anyway not so important.

Isis

8 May 08, 01:31

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Surrender and Understanding

Finally, ultimately, (when it comes to spiritual enlightenment) the surrender and the Understanding are the same, even if they are apparently, in perception or experience, separated chronologically.

The very concept of 'the total Understanding' necessarily includes surrender, for it begins with the willingness, "Thy will be done;" and ends in seeing that one is not.

Thus there is a sensed rightness in the idea that humility in some form is a mark of a true sage; an intuitive sense that if one doesn't have a sense of humor about themselves and about what is happening, it is highly unlikely that awakening has occurred.

Taking oneself too seriously may be a fairly good sign that there has not been the giving up, the surrendering, of the false idea that one actually exists (as a separate entity).

Doubts about the authenticity of certain teachers often boil down to this: that while they may have an excellent understanding of the teachings, it is the complete surrender of the sense of individual self that has perhaps not occurred.

In this phenomenality of duality, there is always the flip side, the complementary opposite that completes. Male-female, Shiva-Shakti, jnana-bhakti, understanding surrender. Disdaining one or the other misses truth.

Despite traditions to the contrary, there simply cannot be true jnana without true bhakta, there cannot be the ultimate understanding without the ultimate surrender. Certain personalities will try to avoid one or the other under the guise of some higher wisdom, but always at the cost of wholeness.

There is a tradition that jnana is the higher path because the bhakta relies on a belief in someone or something to be devoted to, whereas the jnani knows there is neither. But true bhakti is pure devotion with no object; and the true jnani knows nothing.

Jnana and bhakta, knowledge and devotion, understanding and surrender, inseeing and outpouring, mind and heart, cannot be divided or opposed; because they are the same.

It can be seen that the path of the bhakti in devotion leading to surrender, and that of the jnani in knowledge leading to understanding, meet when each takes the final step.

The ultimate surrender is the total Understanding; the complete Understanding is the utter surrender unto death of the individual self.

Jesus: "Only he who loses his life will find it." Again, "Not' my will, but Thine be done," because it is understood that there is no 'mine,' no 'me' to will.A lo

It is the surrender of all vestiges of the sense of the individual person, including, ironic as it may seem, all those hopes and dreams and prayers of ever becoming a good or better person or a person other people might love or like or be drawn to. It is the complete surrender into 'This Is All That Is.'

And yes, that final surrender, that total Understanding is sudden and happens once. And that once is now. And that now is eternal.

From, Brilliant Perfect Stillness, by David Carse You may like to see our page on The Supreme Worship

A lovely piece :)

Isis

8 May 08, 01:47

Zen teacher John Daido Loori said,

According to the Buddhist point of view, nonattachment is exactly the opposite of separation. You need two things in order to have attachment: the thing you’re attaching to, and the person who’s attaching. In nonattachment, on the other hand, there’s unity. There’s unity because there’s nothing to attach to. If you have unified with the whole universe, there’s nothing outside of you, so the notion of attachment becomes absurd. Who will attach to what?

Once a fellow Zen student left a briefcase in a taxi. He began to worry about the briefcase, he said, and then he recognized that worrying is attachment. In order to worry, he had to conceptualize himself as a limited, finite being separated from something else, a briefcase. That's attachment, and it's also separation. You can't attach to something unless you perceive yourself as separate from it.

(He got his briefcase back, by the way.)

Contemplation of impermanence of the bodies is a also a wonderful form of meditation for one to release attachment to our bodies.