Faith in Belief Systems
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...my original reply was made solely with the intention of replying andrew. everything else is not important.Originally posted by longchen:Seriously, I do not wish to recieve mental arguments... it really does not help at all. It is much much better to re-evaluate one's own understand by honest self-experience and understanding of one's own mental and personality inclinations.
Thank you for reading.
...i also have no wish to discuss theology here.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
imho, i think can base on a simple rule of jie ding hui.
What is the litmus test of reality?
ie. discipline of body & mind => calmness/stabilization/concentration => wisdom/knowledge(see the real reality)
simile: in order to see the bottom of the water, one need to calm down the water (or the mind), which is often running all about.
agitate or eagerness wouldn't help see reality.
need to calm down first to see reality as it really IS.
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however, people seldom do litmus test wan, school teach what, they accept it as truth. internet say what, they also accept. media say what they also accept.
u know what? science had nowaday become a 'religion' liao.
hence reality is not fixed. it depends on the mind of the person that accept it.
this is what Buddha discovered. it's empty of existence. it is an illusion. the mind is the root source. your MIND make reality real and your MIND make it unreal. All in the MIND.
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Nice simile BTW.Originally posted by sinweiy:however, people seldom do litmus test wan, school teach what, they accept it as truth. internet say what, they also accept. media say what they also accept.
u know what? science had nowaday become a 'religion' liao.
hence reality is not fixed. it depends on the mind of the person that accept it.
this is what Buddha discovered. it's empty of existence. it is an illusion. the mind is the root source. your MIND make reality real and your MIND make it unreal. All in the MIND.
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Just to add: To fully comprehend the truth ( for realization ), one has to practice and see this phenomenon (i.e thing as it is ) themselves. Buddhism deals not only internal and also external. There are actually related. -
I disagree, even the body or mind is calm, if there is no river, how can we see a river?Originally posted by sinweiy:imho, i think can base on a simple rule of jie ding hui.
ie. discipline of body & mind => calmness/stabilization/concentration => wisdom/knowledge(see the real reality)
simile: in order to see the bottom of the water, one need to calm down the water (or the mind), which is often running all about.
agitate or eagerness wouldn't help see reality.
need to calm down first to see reality as it really IS.
/\ -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
why want to see river? if no river, then no river lo.
I disagree, even the body or mind is calm, if there is no river, how can we see a river?
got river or no river is still the mind.
agree or disagree is still the mind.
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Yah... all is the MINDOriginally posted by sinweiy:however, people seldom do litmus test wan, school teach what, they accept it as truth. internet say what, they also accept. media say what they also accept.
u know what? science had nowaday become a 'religion' liao.
hence reality is not fixed. it depends on the mind of the person that accept it.
this is what Buddha discovered. it's empty of existence. it is an illusion. the mind is the root source. your MIND make reality real and your MIND make it unreal. All in the MIND.
/\ -
What is "Direct Experience"?Originally posted by longchen:Unfortunately, holy teachings have been misused and misinterpretation countless of times and countless of sequence by manipulative and unenlightenment leaders. Don't be a naive and trusting blind-follower!
Please do not believe in the honesty of mankind... however holy they may appear to be. Trust only in Direct Experience!
Seriously, I do not wish to recieve mental arguments... it really does not help at all. It is much much better to re-evaluate one's own understand by honest self-experience and understanding of one's own mental and personality inclinations.
Thank you for reading.
I do agree with u that man is too depraved to be holy. In fact, Men are totally depraved.
BTW, Christians do have honest self-experience too.
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Truly insightful and wonderful post! Thank you!Originally posted by longchen:I think I have said that in another topic " Question about the Source".
"God/Source" is too direct to be seen!!! It's nature is love and bliss. In fact, from my experience that may be no distinction between love and bliss.
When it is seen/experienced, "you or self" must completely dissolve/disappear! This is the true meaning of surrendering one's will to God. That is also why in Buddhism there is 'no self'. But the 'Source' abide in all of us... We simply fail to see IT because our self/ego/I has not dissolved or surrendered enough.
Unfortunately, holy teachings have been misused and misinterpretation countless of times and countless of sequence by manipulative and unenlightenment leaders. Don't be a naive and trusting blind-follower!
Please do not believe in the honesty of mankind... however holy they may appear to be. Trust only in Direct Experience!
Seriously, I do not wish to recieve mental arguments... it really does not help at all. It is much much better to re-evaluate one's own understand by honest self-experience and understanding of one's own mental and personality inclinations.
Thank you for reading. -
Originally posted by longchen:"God/Source" is too direct to be seen!!! It's nature is love and bliss. In fact, from my experience that may be no distinction between love and bliss.
God/Source/Allah/etc had been attributed with many qualities, so as to be able to describe ITS nature. For example: cleanliness is next to godliness ...... ,and so forth. The point is not the quality but the REALITY.
There is certainly a distinction between love and bliss: Love is blind; Ignorance is bliss.
Unfortunately, holy teachings have been misused and misinterpretation countless of times and countless of sequence by manipulative and unenlightenment leaders. Don't be a naive and trusting blind-follower!
So, what kind of faith is appropriate?
Please do not believe in the honesty of mankind... however holy they may appear to be. Trust only in Direct Experience!
Actually, the real reason why we believe god is because we cannot believe human!
Seriously, I do not wish to recieve mental arguments... it really does not help at all. It is much much better to re-evaluate one's own understand by honest self-experience and understanding of one's own mental and personality inclinations.
Brainwashing, auto-suggestion, peer-pressure, witnessing, faith alone are all the subtle means to alter your mind. -
If there is a river, and your mind claims to see no river.... Is your mind moving or is the river moving?Originally posted by sinweiy:why want to see river? if no river, then no river lo.
got river or no river is still the mind.
agree or disagree is still the mind.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
invalid query, as nobody who truely understood Dharma say there's NO river.
If there is a river, and your mind claims to see no river.... Is your mind moving or is the river moving?
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Just showing the other end of the logic....Originally posted by sinweiy:invalid query, as nobody who truely understood Dharma say there's NO river.
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Go ask a schizopreniac.... -
Somebody once said that "You can never step into the same river twice...." simply because the river is changing constantly...
Therefore the river, the river that is in your mind, the river that you see, the river that you remember, the river that you are staring at... does not exist.
You are looking at a "new" river every moment....
In the same way, nothing exists... at least not in the way the human MIND thinks that it exists. -
Great analogyOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:Somebody once said that "You can never step into the same river twice...." simply because the river is changing constantly...
Therefore the river, the river that is in your mind, the river that you see, the river that you remember, the river that you are staring at... does not exist.
You are looking at a "new" river every moment....
In the same way, nothing exists... at least not in the way the human MIND thinks that it exists. -
hehehe of course you will think that it is a great analogy since your signature pretty much says the same thing..Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Great analogy -
Thusness is just so.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:hehehe of course you will think that it is a great analogy since your signature pretty much says the same thing.. -
Then please tell me when there is no river?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Somebody once said that "You can never step into the same river twice...." simply because the river is changing constantly...
Therefore the river, the river that is in your mind, the river that you see, the river that you remember, the river that you are staring at... does not exist.
You are looking at a "new" river every moment....
In the same way, nothing exists... at least not in the way the human MIND thinks that it exists. -
"when there is no river"? When the conditions for the river does not exist.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Then please tell me when there is no river?
So the question is, when the conditions exist, does the river exists? Yes, but "not inherently", and conditionally; it exists "not inherently" and exists conditionally.
You exist "not inherently" and you exist conditionally as well.
What that means is that you do not exist as an intrinsic, whole, individual entity. You are part of everything else but your brain fools you into thinking that you exist in and by yourself. Your brain fools you into thinking that if everything else does not exist, you will continue to exist. That is a delusion.
You are a part of eveything else and everything is a part of everything else. -
When the two Koreans in Afghanistan, how come I don't feel anything?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:"when there is no river"? When the conditions for the river does not exist.
So the question is, when the conditions exist, does the river exists? Yes, but "not inherently", and conditionally; it exists "not inherently" and exists conditionally.
You exist "not inherently" and you exist conditionally as well.
What that means is that you do not exist as an intrinsic, whole, individual entity. You are part of everything else but your brain fools you into thinking that you exist in and by yourself. Your brain fools you into thinking that if everything else does not exist, you will continue to exist. That is a delusion.
You are a part of eveything else and everything is a part of everything else. -
Well said!Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:"when there is no river"? When the conditions for the river does not exist.
So the question is, when the conditions exist, does the river exists? Yes, but "not inherently", and conditionally; it exists "not inherently" and exists conditionally.
You exist "not inherently" and you exist conditionally as well.
What that means is that you do not exist as an intrinsic, whole, individual entity. You are part of everything else but your brain fools you into thinking that you exist in and by yourself. Your brain fools you into thinking that if everything else does not exist, you will continue to exist. That is a delusion.
You are a part of eveything else and everything is a part of everything else. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:When the two Koreans in Afghanistan, how come I don't feel anything?
what you can, or cannot feel has nothing to do with what goes on in Afghanistan, or anywhere else. Are you assuming that you should be capable of feeling everything that goes on? -
Your blindness to their sufferings is also the conditioning/conditioned arising of that moment and part of the whole.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:When the two Koreans in Afghanistan, how come I don't feel anything? -
Your ignorance in answering my question wrongly is due to the fact that at the moment the deceased passed away and me are not connected in any way, physically or otherwise and not due to conditioning or conditioned arising. Hence it is logically proven we are not linked in any nature.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Your blindness to their sufferings is also the conditioning/conditioned arising of that moment and part of the whole. -
I am completely clear and answered you correctly.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Your ignorance in answering my question wrongly is due to the fact that at the moment the deceased passed away and me are not connected in any way, physically or otherwise and not due to conditioning or conditioned arising. Hence it is logically proven we are not linked in any nature.
On the other hand, your ignorance and inability to understand what I am saying is because the conditions were not there for you to understand it yet.
Conditioned arising only happens, as the term suggests, when there is the conditions for it to arise.
Update: when there is cause and conditions, whether 10 metres or 10 billion light years apart, conditioned arising WILL happen, there is no where and no who. When conditions are NOT there, they will not arise even if you try to force it.