Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra sharing by Thusness
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Still remember we had a Lankavatara Sutra sharing session by Thusness in the beginning part of the year? (6th January 2007)
Well, since I am a fast typer, I decided to type out everything that is said by him onto my comp while I was listening to the audio recording again. Didn't take much time as my typing speed can easily catch up with the speed of talking.
It is a 2 & a half hr sharing & discussion session. I hope u'll enjoy reading, as the 5 of us who joined the Skype discussion that day really enjoyed the sharing session. The discussion was spoken in simple terms, so it can be easily understood. Feel free to ask or discuss anything in this thread.
Update: note that this is only a casual discussion of one's experiences with Lankavatara Sutra, it is NOT a chapter to chapter commentary. For this, refer to other sources.
2nd Update: Part 2 is posted.
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Thusness: Ok. What are we going to discuss today?
Participant 2 (Me): Lankavatara Sutra?
Thusness: Ok. I think itÂ’s just mainly a simple sharing session about how I get to know about this Lankavatara Sutra and how it help to account for certain of my experiences.
Hello, thereÂ’s this hellscream who said psychic powers. This one is nub (Cenarious/Eric Cartman/Omniknight) is it? {laughs} Ok.
I think letÂ’s not talk about Lankavatara history. The date of Lankavatara Sutra is to enter into a very controversial kind of position. It is almost impossible to trace the date with our modern knowledge. But it is fairly safe to say that it is compiled before 443 A.D. With regards to the textual authenticity, there is always many disturbing kind of questions that... is it authentic or not? Is Lankavatara Sutra the words of Buddha? This is like are Mahayana the true words of Buddha? So whenever we enter these, we always have all these types of problems. ThereÂ’s also someone who doubts, have Buddha really walked the land of Sri Lanka? Now if we were to engage in all these types of questions, there is no ending to it. This is how I feel.
Ok, next itÂ’s also important to know, when weÂ’re going to approach Lankavatara Sutra from the perspective of a practitioner, or as an academic study, whenever we do something, we always start with whatÂ’s the purpose, whatÂ’s the objective, how real is it. We always go through from studying it, whether historically, philosophically, psychologically, or scientifically. This is the way weÂ’re going to approach something in the modern age. But when we come to something that is spiritual, it is very very difficult to account this way. Why do I say so?
This comes to the point of why I came to know more about this Lankavatara Sutra. Actually I know about this sutra 10 over years ago, when I was still quite young. But at later stage, due to certain experiences, I could not find books written few years ago to account certain things that probably a person experience, but is not stated anywhere. So after a period of searching, and then start reading, I still could not find anyone, or any author that can tell me precisely, ok, this is what you are experiencing, or somehow there is this experience that is there. Until one day when I started reading this sutra, I think in Takashimaya, I was reading through, just flipping. Then I realise hey, self-realisation, quite interesting. Then maybe some of the bhumi stages, then I find eh, this is an interesting topic. And somehow it is stated somewhere there. This is how I came to be interested in this sutra.
Now, the entire thing about Lankavatara Sutra can be summarised into something like Reality is only Mind. That is, when we talk about Reality is only Mind, those who study Buddhism will know that there is the Cittamatra and then there is the Vijnaptimatra. We have to be very very careful about this thing. It is not going to be very scientific because you will sound stupid, you see. How can the external objects, the external reality, the objective reality that is so clearly outside, out there, be said to be the Mind? The manifestation of the Mind? How can you say that? ArenÂ’t you talking something that is not scientific? How is it possible? When you hear the sound, it is very obvious it is out there. When you touch the table, it is very clear that it is out there. The objective world exists with or without your intervention. Now, this casts many doubts of how do we account for these experiences, for experience the Lankavatara Sutra is stating all these. And I am only interested in this. And we have to differentiate this experience with another experience by what we call the Realists, by saying that everything is Perception. By saying No, it is actually your thoughts that is important, your perception, they are just perception of what you are thinking. Lankavatara Sutra is Not talking about this. DonÂ’t misunderstand. These are the concepts of philosophers. These are not the real experiences of one that has entered Non-Duality.
So it comes to the first chapter, of what the Lankavatara Sutra said. The chapter is about discriminations. Ok, in Lankavatara Sutra, they talk about the Five Dharmas. Mainly the names, the appearances, the discriminations, right knowledge, and then reality. I think this is very very important. What is appearance? Appearance is only phenomena that arises when the five senses come into contact. This is what is appearance. But it is before the formation of perception. This means whenever you sense something, before the formation of perception, that means before you identify it with object, that is what I call appearance. Then it comes to identification with an object, and that is perception, and this is the layer of what I call the symbolic world. And these are names. How I see Lankavatara Sutra. Then you can discriminate, that is discrimination, and that is duality. And then comes the right knowledge of what is it? And how do we experience reality.
First of all we have to understand that what is meant by All is Mind is different from what is meant by All is Perception. Wei-Xin-Lun (Mind-Only Doctrine) is not the same as Wei-Shi-Lun (Consciousness-Only Doctrine). When we say that you are young till now. LetÂ’s say you are an old person. Everything that you experience, and everything that you touch, feel, or experience from an experiential point of view is the Mind. This means every single thoughts, every single things, including when you scoop the sand, when you touch the sand, and when you feel the texture of the sand, is the Mind. This is the kind of experience that Lankavatara Sutra is talking about. So do not confuse that hey, it is a thought in your mind. No it is not talking about this. Many people misunderstand this. It is not talking about this. So first, we must be very clear that it is this experience that they are talking about. It is the experience that is Non-Duality.
A person when first enters into meditation.. the first things that come to mind are thoughts. Streams of thoughts, never-ending thoughts. It never stops, never cease. Now, how are we going to understand what reality is all about, when we are covered by this layer of thoughts? And why going beyond this layer of thoughts is important to feel and to see what Reality is? The question that the objective world is so real outside you is mainly due to an attachment. Why do I say that? Many of us are unable to go beyond what I call the body. That is, your body. Because of this body, we acquire all our knowledge through the Five Senses and we make interpretations. It creates what I call a sense of boundary, that there is some restrictions, and therefore beyond this restriction it is outside, and within this restriction it is me, this is mental. But this is not actually the case when someone experiences what I call a moment of Presence. There are many people who had experienced Presence before. It is a state of clear luminosity and clarity. What is this experience all about? This experience is the first experience when one engages in a spiritual life that something is very very real. Something that is alive, and yet there is no thoughts. Something very very real. Something is extremely alive, you know that you are not a machine, you are not a body. Very real. So we ask, what is this? Now, it is this experience that serves as the condition that led many people to continue searching in the spiritual path. It is this experience that is misunderstood by many people as what they call the Eternal Witness, or they call the I AM. -
Now a person must come to this awareness first, of the Presence, this Reality, this Presence, what is it? Before they can proceed to the next step. This is important, because this is the first time you do not understand anything by knowledge. You do not understand anything by thoughts. You do not understand anything by the process of thinking. Everything just stops, and yet, there is Existence. So this is a moment, this is a form of touch, of what they call the Transcendental. This is important. But very soon, this experience is being distorted, completely distorted, by something that is very strong. This is what I call the momentum. This momentum is often overlooked by many practitioners. This momentum is very strong. To the objective world, it might not be. But to consciousness, it is very very strong. And it is so strong that we cannot identify what is real. And it is so strong that it bonds us life after life. How strong is it? It prevents us from knowing what that we touch, what that we feel, what that we sense and what that we see. This is how strong it is. The very moment when a person experience Presence and straight away they think that they are the I AM. This is the Eternal Soul. This is the Spirit. And this is what in Lankavatara Sutra states: It is the propensities, the habit energy. But it is so fast that even after you experience the Presence, you cannot go beyond it. You are still affected by it. And the world that you perceive suddenly becomes, still dualistic. But it becomes spiritual, but it is dualistic. This means that there is a subject and there is an objective world and there is a subjective world. This Ultimate Subject is God. This Ultimate Subject is the One that is behind, and everything is taking place, it is the Observer. This Subject that all is experiencing is actually an illusion. Why do I say that? Why do I say that it is an illusion? It is because of the momentum.
The momentum is so subtle that you canÂ’t see it, unless you meditate. That is why you have to meditate. Meditation is for you to calm yourself down so that your mind can be clear enough to sense this patterns. This momentum. This continuous momentum that is taking place from moment to moment. Now, why do I want to stress this momentum? Because many people mistook reality, because this momentum is always taking place and without being truly mindful, you just assume it to be like that. It is a spell. It is a magical spell that bonds. So we are blinded because of the spell, and consciousness reacts to this spell, which is just a bond. Just a bond. And you just canÂ’t see. And consciousness is full of these bonds, all around, and you canÂ’t see. These bonds are what that prevent us from understanding. Now, therefore, you have to take the Seventh Consciousness in the Cittamatra and the Eighth Consciousness very seriously. The conscious mind cannot do much things. Whatever you think you have a way of doing something can only take place not immediately. They can only take place as a form of imprint, very deep into your consciousness. Becomes imprint and momentum, and then resurface out as effects only at much later dates. It always work this way. This is what one has to understand. So now, this is the momentum that is preventing a person from seeing.
I have been giving IT seminars for many years. Many many years. Giving seminars for more than hundreds of times for more than 10 over years of my career. But everytime, when I see a crowd of people, my hand feel cold. So one day I was sitting down, trying to calm myself down, it kept coming. I just had this feeling. But I search my entire conscious mind, I just donÂ’t feel that I should have this feeling at all. But why is this appearing? Why is this appearing? I search my entire mind. I think I am calm enough. I just cannot understand why it surfaced.
Why are they surfacing? Because of propensities. And this tells you that you don’t have to think of any reasons. What you have to do is to calm down yourself and you observe... they are always taking place. Without uprooting all these propensities, you cannot have the kind of clarity to understand what Dharmakaya is. And these propensities continue as long as you can feel the strength. Now, what you have to understand is, these propensities have certain effects. It is the effect of bonding you to see things in terms of what I call entities. Means, there is an “I”, there is a Subject, and there is an Object. Always seeing in dualistic mode. And because of this, we are unable to know. All our knowledge and all our systems of enquiry is a product of this propensity. The First Cause. God. We ask the question “Who?” “What?” “When?” “Why?” and “Where?” The entire system that you are thinking, we call this system, a system of enquiry, is based on the momentum. This seed. It is the product of this seed. And therefore, as long as you are within this mechanism, you cannot understand what reality is all about. Why do we ask “Who?” and “When?” and “Where?” and “How Come?” So, we have to understand the entire mechanism is the product of this momentum. It is not an entity, it is just the propensity. So the entire mechanism of enquiry is based on this. A person who has experienced the Presence has mistaken the Presence as Eternal Witness will say that: I AM, therefore I AM the Watcher, and I AM the Eternal Soul. And everything is appearing and disappearing like a mirror, you know. The first thing they have to understand is this. Why does he said that? This is because his entire mechanism is so deeply rooted to see things in terms of entities. That is why he said that. But in Buddhism, you look at how the Buddha had presented it, Buddha has not presented it in this way. Look at how Buddha had presented it.
When we look at Buddhism, Buddhism is very consistent. Why do I say that Buddhism is very consistent? Not because I like Buddhism. You see, a person saying that I have experienced Presence, and I AM the Eternal Witness, I AM God, I AM all powerful and I AM the First Cause, and yet, they see a dualistic world. This is in total conflict; this has totally no logic at all. Because, you see, in Buddhism when we talk about Non-Duality, we are saying something like the Dependent Origination. Because of This, That Is. This arises, That arises. This ceases, That ceases. We look at the entire formation, there is no “Who?” Where is the “Who?” When we ask “Where?”, there is no “Where?”. When we ask “When?”, there is no “When?” It can be 10 million miles away. It can be in another planet. The teaching is consistent. It does not require a “Who”, a “Where”, a “When”. Condition arises, it is there. It is not stored in any place, or anywhere. This is the teaching. The entire teaching is consistent when it comes to the practise. They didn’t say Concentration can lead to Insight. They tell you, Vipashyana Meditation can lead to Insight of what Reality is all about. It does not teach that there is a Self. The Buddha taught the three dharma seals: there is No-Self. So the teaching is consistent in terms of philosophy, in terms of meditation practice, and in terms of the truths that is being preached.
And also in terms of spiritual powers. When I say something like Clairvoyance... I can see, not bounded by distance. I can hear, not bounded by distance. How come? Why? If we were to take other religions, they canÂ’t explain. But if you were to take Buddhism, Buddha had never told you, has never taught, something of an Ego, something of a Where, something of a When. It is not bounded by Time and Space at all in the entire philosophy. Never has he taught anything like that. And therefore, when we talk about spiritual powers, it is consistent. It is knowing without the need for a Space and Time, not bounded by Space and Time, because the entire teaching is so. And what is being said about this? It is the Nature. This is your nature. Reality is like that, it is so. Therefore, when we understand the teachings, we understand that yes, it is not right to be attached, therefore we cannot say we want to seek spiritual powers, like Nub. But we have to understand, this is our Nature, this is our Reality. Because the teaching has never contradicted itself. If you want to know about your reality, you have to practise. That is the teaching. And the practise has always been telling you to observe these 3 universal characteristics. So when we see the link between the practise, the philosophy, even something spiritual and something that is not scientific. This is important.
The next thing is that we must see the momentum truly exists. The momentum is very strong, and is what that propels life after life. The momentum. If we cannot see this momentum, and we just experience the Presence, it is not enough. -
Now, karmic propensities, forms, the Source, or the Nature, all is Empty. This means that if you were to search this momentum, you cannot find it. Just like the Source, it cannot be found. You can try to pinpoint any place, any where, you cannot locate it. This is not the nature that is peculiar to our luminous nature. Karmic propensities, even atoms, particles, they all exhibit this Emptiness nature. So if we were to try to understand karmic propensities as something that is stored somewhere, when it is stated that it is very deep, we cannot locate it, it is not located anywhere. Same thing when we talk about karmic propensities, when we want to understand karmic propensities, we can only understand by Feeling them, by Experiencing them. You cannot locate them. You cannot find them. This is the way we must experience the propensities, and in order to experience this, we have to be clear and we have to practise. And that is why your senses must be sharp, clear, in order to feel it. You cannot lie to yourself. Therefore Propensities, Source, Forms, everything exhibit this Emptiness nature, but it can be known.
Ok, now, until here, I do not want to formulate any theory. But I just want to tell people that are sincere in practise, to experience the bond. The bond is something that is very strong, and this bond has to be eliminated. Otherwise, it is a waste of time in practise. And it is this bond that propels you for life after life. And if you want to understand why this bond can propel life after life, the first thing you have to do is to Feeeel the presence, and the strength of this bond. How it can bond you for so many years from seeing something. You must feel this bond, this is very important. So, when this bond dissolves, then, your clarity can increase. Then there is clarity. If this bond is there, there is no Seeing. So first, you must understand that the Name, Appearance, Discrimination, and then Knowledge. Now, we must see that it is the bonds that are actually preventing us from seeing. And therefore, I kept emphasising that a person has to meditate. Do not listen to people that says you do not need meditation. You have to meditate in order to know the truth, because it is so subtle. If your mind keeps on jumping, it keeps on chattering, it cannot understand, it cannot see at all. So first, you must be able to calm your mind down and see this point. This is the bond that prevents you from experiencing reality as You, as Mind only. This is the bond that before you can see, they already cover a layer of illusion, a layer of symbols that prevents you from seeing that everything is the Mind. So when you buy in to this bond, the best you can do is to understand that Reality is Perception, that is the Realist point of view. When you work hard and is able to go beyond this layer, and dissolve the bond, you will know that everything is the Mind. By the Mind, I donÂ’t mean perception you know, I mean, your True Nature.
One of the most difficult things to overcome the bond is actually the body. So in terms of practise, one should understand how the Mind, when they cannot understand what Reality is all about, they grasp what is most dearest to them. They grasp the body, they hold on to the body. So much so that every action that is being taken, as long as it harms the body, it pretends not to see in the mind, the mind that tries to observe. Before you say I want to observe, it prevents you from seeing. Because you fear, you fear to see, you fear to experience. You fear to go beyond and see oh, what actually happens if I donÂ’t have this. That prevents you. This is the working of the bond that prevents you from seeing.
This is first... we talk about the symbols and the bonds, how they work to interact with each other. Now, the next thing which is important is, I do not understand... in Lankavatara Sutra. Though it is not stated very clearly. The idea of the transference of merits. They buy into this idea of the transference of merits. That is like taking vows and then, not through the practitionerÂ’s effort, but through the power of the Buddha, it brings them to the next understanding, the next stage. This is the part that I think is in direct contradiction with the TheravadaÂ’s understanding of Self-Effort. This is the Parinamana concept. Now, I respect Lankavatara Sutra, so I will not say anything about it. If we were to accept this, why Eternal Now ask me why I canÂ’t accept the vows... because if this is the case, that means you can grant enlightenment. Because it can be transferred. This is the part that puzzles me. What does it mean? Why is it so? So, it doesnÂ’t mean that... because I read Lankavatara Sutra, I respect the Sutra, but I have to buy in all things. Because there are also many things that I do not understand. What that troubles me is if I take in this, that means Enlightenment can actually be given. I do not know. Any views? Colin?
Participant 1: Me ah? Actually I do not think that Theravada thinking do not accept the concept of vows and the BuddhaÂ’s contribution in the cultivation, you know. Because I was reading this autobiography of this monk, this Thai monk, in his deep meditation he also made a lot of vows and he did through the vows, he gained in his cultivation, and I think it is very instrumental in his progress, you know.
Thusness: No, the vows are very important, because they affect what I call the pre-conscious level. But what I meant is the transfer of merits.... letÂ’s say for example the Bodhisattva can make a vow. But why does this vow serve as a condition for bringing them to the next Bhumi stage? This is through the power of Not their own you know, it is stated in Lankavatara Sutra, it is by Buddha. Do you get what I mean? There is a transference of merits, though it is not explicitly stated. This is what I do not understand. Because if I were to take this as it is, as what it is being stated, then I have to buy in the idea that it can be transferred.
Participant 1: I think this question needs to be experienced, you know.
Thusness: Yup. This is what I said.
Participant 1: The thing is, when I gone through the retreat, my progress wasnÂ’t as good as compared to if I made any vows in my deep concentration and my visualisation. What I observe is the sense of ego, how it grips me, changed, totally changed.
Thusness: I think the idea is this. They can only serve as conditions. But why by making vows, can have that kind of impact? Now, I also realise one thing. When a person goes into deeper and deeper stages of meditation, and enters into the different Bhumi stages, they cannot anyhow say things.
Participant 1: And the vow can also serve as a cause isnÂ’t it?
Thusness: Yeah, it serves as a cause. So, itÂ’s something like a person taking moral precepts very seriously, they donÂ’t anyhow say things. Right? Now, thereÂ’ll be people who have no sense of responsibilities, no sense of morality, theyÂ’ll just say out... I donÂ’t agree. So when a person takes his practice very seriously, he will also realise that when he goes deeper and deeper, his thoughts becomes clearer and also more powerful. He actually enters into a realm that when he speaks at that level, it takes place. And therefore vows to some people cannot be made easily. That is why, I cannot understand, why vows? Why a person must make the vows in order to go to the next stage? This is one thing that I have not experienced yet. I do not know why it is stated so explicitly in the sutras that this is important. This is one part. The rest, I think, ok.
Participant 1: DoesnÂ’t it mean that for you, you have to take it at faith level, make the vow and experience it yourself?
Thusness: Ok, uh, taking vows of course I have taken already lah. It is the implication of, when you take a vow, what is your mindset, and how should you prepare. I mean the vows, I have taken quite a few times. But, what is the implications of the vows, why the vows are needed? This is another story. Can you see what I mean or not? How people actually experience it and what does it mean? I mean a vow, we have taken it what. So this is one thing that I cannot understand. How is it that a vow at that level brings you to another stage. And you must understand, it is only at that level, you know. Otherwise I donÂ’t think it serves much purpose. -
Ok, now back to Lankavatara Sutra. When we say about... uh, a symbol. Name. Can a mind function without a name, or a symbol? This is something that is very important. I remember during my university days, a professor took out a book and said, tell me what is this. Then he took out something that weÂ’ve never seen before. You just observe only, what is that? You just see only, very attentive, you just look at it. There is no symbol for it, because we cannot identify it. But does that mean that you are enlightened? So we must know that seeing things beyond symbols is still not enough. It is still not sufficient.
So what they meant that to come to a stage of knowing your own reality, there are many conditions. One of them is the capacity to see beyond symbols. But it does not mean that to see beyond symbols, you are enlightened, you can see reality. The second conditions is the experience of Presence. That is the I AMness. That is also very important. This, and the capacity to see in raw, and, the ability to feel every moment as arising and ceasing and passing away, this three conditions must be present. Means that if you do not experience the luminous clarity even just a glimpse, the condition is not there.
Uh, somebody sent a.... ok, the issue of other power. IÂ’ll read about that later. Now I want to talk about the conditions to want to see clarity, to see that all is One Mind. There must be the condition of experiencing Presence. That is a moment of luminosity. There must also be the condition that one is able to see things in raw, means bare attention for a prolong period of time. Means at least half an hour, 20 to 30 minutes, continuously. One must be able to continuously see, touch, and feel in raw. That is beyond symbols.
The third thing is to know about the power of the momentum. Now, the momentum will seem to react very fast only when your mind is really not focused, when your mind is chattering, when your mind is very busy. Your momentum will seem to be very fast. But when you are able to settle your thoughts and see in raw, the momentum seems to be very slow. They arise slowly, and then you can see that they subside. This means that the speed of arising and subsiding becomes very slow. Ok, only when you are able to see this momentum, you'll know what "oh, I made this decision and this way of perception because this momentum is reacting". Then, the condition is present for you to see what reality is all about. Otherwise, reality will always be mistaken as perception, or as an objective world, or as an Eternal Witness. Do you all get what I mean?
{End of Part 1} -
Great effort but misleading. I think it should be done chapter by chapter when it comes to sutra. Don't think I am there yet.
I am in a critical stage of transcendence now...hehehe....Don't create karma for me... -
Made a small note aboveOriginally posted by Thusness:Great effort but misleading. I think it should be done chapter by chapter when it comes to sutra. Don't think I am there yet.
I am in a critical stage of transcendence now...hehehe....Don't create karma for me...
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Part 2
Due to laginess and poor sound quality, the last part is a little bit more difficult to read. Note that the following conversation is a casual discussion and may not be related to Lankavatara Sutra.
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Participant 1: During chanting... A state of uh...
Thusness: Calmness right?
Participant 1: Yup.
Thusness: Ok. Maybe you can share your experience about this.
Participant 1: What aspect?
Thusness: The aspect of going beyond symbols.
Participant 1: Ok. Actually I go pass through different stages. At first the mind is very focused on the mantra, the mantra itself does not have any meaning which is comprehensible by the mind, so while I chant as my mind is focused, my mind is absorbed into a sense of non-conceptual state, and this is the first part. Gradually, I realise, observe that the distracting thoughts actually do occur in endless streams. As I focus on the mantra without following the thoughts, the thoughts just naturally dies off. From there I understand that the thoughts are impermanent, and their nature is also without much meaning. Gradually as I carry on, I saw that the nature of the mantra as well as the distracting thoughts whatever it is, whatever story it is, is actually the same. People ask me what's the nature, but I don't know how to say.
Thusness: Ok. I think when we view consciousness, we have to understand that there are a few things. We cannot keep on thinking about the objective world first. We must see how consciousness reacts. That is if we react very intensely, strongly towards symbols, then whatever reactions will go back deep into your consciousness. This is one thing. My perspective is that when you chant, you are not dealing with our luminous clarity. We're dealing with propensities deep in your consciousness. Insight meditation itself deals directly with this clarity. That is the luminous clarity. But if we were to continue to chant, you are actually focusing more on the deeper layers of consciousness that deals with propensities and the power of concentration. Do you see what I mean? It's not so much of the luminosity. However, the chanting itself, when it takes strength, it creates a kind of momentum. A momentum that synchronises not only with your sub-conscious or the deeper layers of your consciousness, but also your conscious level. This means it can sync the two layers into one. This syncing the two into one clears your mind, clears your thoughts. And then at this time, you ask who you are, that is, not letting the momentum take place, but just feel and sense... then you ask what is it. At that moment, you might see your reality. But your mind must be able to settle down first. But you must know there is a difference between working at the concentration level, dealing with the karmic propensities and creating new momentums, and practicing insight meditation that touch directly the clarity and the luminous nature, are two different things. You see what I mean or not?
Participant 1: Yeah I think so. This means that I still need to do insight meditation?
Thusness: Yes you have to do insight meditation. Even if you attain calmness you still have to do insight meditation. You must feel the awareness... You must sense it everywhere... That is very important for liberation. Now when we talk about awareness, we don't call it Self or we don't call it Mind. Why people call it Awareness is because they do not want to call it Self, because there is no Self. The reason they said Awareness, is because Awareness is not an entity. It is not a thing. It is just a point of luminous clarity. It is just clarity. But because we are so accustomed to thinking things in terms of object and subject, we always take Awareness as something. It must be somewhere inside, residing somewhere. Even if it is not residing inside the body it must be somewhere, someplace. This is the problem, you see. So when you say that let’s be aware. We always think of “how?” How to be aware? When we say “where is awareness”, they always look for a place, they always look for a something. This is how the mind react, this is what I call a momentum. They always behave this way. They do not know how to say “Just do nothing. Everything is expressing itself by clarity.” They always want to react, you see what I mean?
Participant 1: Yeah.
Thusness: It is an entire layer of doing. If now I tell you, can you just tell your mind not to do anything, they can’t. They just have to do something. It is a momentum at work. This is not the true nature. This is a deeply rooted momentum exercising by itself, so we cannot mistaken this as our nature. Just like you go to China. Then you go to India. The way they present Buddhism is so different. And each of the teachings, there are always deeply rooted cultures that are fused into the teachings, correct? So now, if we were to say, take out those culture, they also do not know what to do, you know? Because it is deeply rooted. They thought it is wrong, but what has that got to do with wrong or right? So we must know that what you say right or wrong, or that reality is so or so, we must be able to discern correctly. Not to discriminate, but discern clearly “oh this is the momentum at work, this is not it.” It has nothing to do with the true nature, but it is part of the process of every appearance, every manifestation. This is the chapter on mind-system in Lankavatara Sutra. The entire thing of how does the mind react. And how does the mind react? They react in a way that the mind can’t see it. Can you see the bond? Seeing how the mind reacts? So fast that you can’t see it? And therefore sitting is important. Don’t think that you can move around and see it. But once you experience it, it is very different. Once you experience it, when you move around you will be able to experience it. But before you experience it, you have to sit. You have to let everything settle down, let your mind settle down.
Now you must also be able to see the consistencies in the teachings. That is there is no I, there is no Where, and there is no When. This is very important. Do not hold anything at all, then you can experience it. You see, when we talk about cause and effect, the philosopher’s cause and effect is different from what the Buddha taught. Cause and effect always involve an entity taking place at a certain date some time later... means, there is an entity, or a first cause, or something, taking a process. Means there is changing ‘things’ going through a process and after certain time interval, takes place. This seeing things as entities. Now, to experience Reality you must not see things this way. This is a deeply rooted culture that forms momentum by making you see it. You get what I mean? Let’s say you’re doing explanation to someone. Somehow there is always bringing in the concepts of Buddhism. And then there is always this dualistic concept. So you are affected now by two momentums. One is a dualistic momentum. One is the momentum of non-dual. So instead of one, it is affected by two. So at later stage they’ll repeat. But it’s ok you know. If this momentum is not there, then probably there will be no understanding. So suffering is definitely to come. But you have to take it. The two momentums are at work, so you must go beyond it, you must understand emptiness. Can you understand what I mean?
Participant 1: So you are like living in two ways?
Thusness: It is not actually living in two ways. It is that the idea of the Self, or seeing things dualistically, is re-enforced not by Buddhist teachings you know, it is by culture, by tradition, by science, by all these, by the philosophies you read, by your experiences of the experiences of the body. But you also need these Buddhist teachings that serves as a conditions to break your concepts. It is good, but there will be pain that will come.
{laughs}
Thusness: Ok. And nub, are you there? DonÂ’t think too much about spiritual powers, ok.
{laughs}
Thusness: Spiritual powers is ok. But if you are too attached, then it is no good. -
Participant 1: John, I have a question. After I chant to a certain extent, I can more or less understand the nature of the thoughts, and be more sensitive to the thoughts at a moment to moment level. You can see how it relates to your speech or actions. IsnÂ’t that a way an insight meditation already?
Thusness: Ok, there are two things you must know. In the three (or four) dharma seals, the universal seals (characteristics of existence), there is the understanding of no-self, there is impermanence, there is suffering and there is nirvana. Entering from the door of impermanence is different from entering the door of no-self.
Participant 1: If I observe how the thoughts behave and realise it from there?
Thusness: Now you see, there are two things. One thing is that when you observe the arising and the passing away of the moment. Of every arising of your thoughts. When you observe the arising and passing away, it can also lead to the understanding of no-self, but from the door of impermanence. This means that Self is seen as a series: Self1, Self2, Self3, that does not remain, from moment to moment it changes. You see what I mean?
Participant 1: Yep.
Thusness: However, a person that enters through the door of no-self, means understanding no-self directly, he enters through luminosity. That is more like a mirror bright, but he cannot understand the luminosity due to momentum, then he separates the external world and the internal world. But the no-self itself will break this mirror, then he will see that everything is the Mind. Do you get it? One is from the luminosity door. No-self leads to the mirror bright, and then breaking the mirror and then experience everything as the nature. The other one that leads to no-self is through the understanding of impermanence.
Participant 1: {inaudible}
Thusness: Ok. Now, the understanding of these two is important, it must later be fused into one to understand what Emptiness about. This means there is no point of reference, there is no centricity, there is no where, there is no when, there is no I, but there is manifestation all and everywhere. If you enter the gate of impermanence, later you have to experience no-self from luminosity, then you have to fuse the two, then you have to stabilise the two, then you can understand Emptiness.
Participant 1: ItÂ’s like, I tend to want to see and perceive things without concept through the door of the mantra, the momentum. How does that relate?
Thusness: If you want to do that, you are going into mindfulness. That means you are slowly from impermanence seeing that things arises and ceases, leading to no-self, and then leading you to insight. That is the luminosity aspect already.
Participant 1: It is the same thing? {inaudible}
Thusness: Ok. This comes to the question of can effort lead to the effortless? You put in effort, can it lead to effortless?
Participant 1: So it has eventually be so called natural?
Thusness: Yes. It has to be as natural as possible. But you must understand many people got confused with the idea of being natural. Then they become lazy. {laughs} Being natural is not to laze around you know. Naturalness cannot be misunderstood as propensities and momentum. When we talk about being natural, it is the natural...
Participant 1: Wu wei? (non-action)
Thusness: (parts translated from Chinese) It is not wu-wei. It is a form of natural arising. Non-action is during the process of practice, natural arising is just continuing to manifest by itself. But when you say, I practise Wu-Wei, Wu-Wei is telling you to let go, but how to let go? There is no self, there is no way to let go. So when you come to understanding, there is not even a letting go. There is no self and everything is continuously manifesting.
Participant 1: Then isnÂ’t it easy to lose yourself, because the propensities are so strong?
Thusness: Ok, this is a very good question. Spontaneous arising cannot be taught first. You cannot tell people things just happen by itself. You cannot tell people to practise this way. Only after certain stage, when a person has seen non-duality, experienced the luminosity, experienced the passing and dissolving away, you can tell them. Because it is leading towards that already. But before that, if you tell them, they are being controlled by the momentum, merely swopped away only.
It is very dangerous to tell people to just relax. Why do person said that? Because they failed to see the strength of what I call, pre-consciousness, the strength of propensities. You see what I mean? When you tell or teach a person “just relax lah, just let everything manifest.” You can’t. A person that does this probably turns to being ultimate slacker. Didn’t do anything. {laugh} Rather than practising, he is digging his own grave you know, enhancing the momentum.
Why spontaneous arising is for a person that has understood (reality)... especially that he has gone through non-duality. He can do spontaneous arising. He can practise spontaneous arising. Why is this so? Because once a person enters into non-duality, the bond of the Self is already gone. A big chunk of the bond, the Self-propensities are already gone. And when this self propensities is gone, the energy turning against itself is being released, and work for itself. It does not die, you know. It is just released and then works for itself, rather than turning against itself. So only a person that has understood and experienced non-duality, it is better for him to penetrate spontaneous arising, to practice this way. Because can see.. {inaudible} there is no need to respond anything. Do you get what I mean? But if let’s say you do not see it, like I said that everything is the Mind, but you did not see that everything is the Mind then you start to say “don’t need to do anything”, you are letting your momentum take...
Participant 1: Sometimes can see, sometimes cannot see..
Thusness: Ok. Non-duality is a very very unique experience. One of the most unique experience I have ever had.
Participant 1: I think there are different levels of it right?
Thusness: Uh, there are different levels of it. The finer of experience and the not so fine, the initial level of experience. In the finest level of experience you will attain a sense of total transparency. It means when you were to touch the sand, you feel the sand, you feel everything. You ask, which aspect is not the Mind? You cannot answer. There is no in-between. There is just that.
Participant 1: How about the initial aspect?
Thusness: The initial aspect is this. The initial aspect is that there is a sudden realisation of non-duality. Then you will be in a stage of probably 60 to 90 days of bliss, of joy, or rapture. These things will happen first. Then, you will suddenly feel {inaudible} the momentum is coming to work. Now, this sudden {inaudible} of non-duality or the experience of non-duality will come again probably in {inaudible} even with practise. Because it will not just stop, but it will not just continuously surface. I mean it will continue to surface, but it will take place with the momentum, that you feel a bit confused. Can you get what I mean? But, if after certain time about two, three years of continuous practise and continuous experiencing it becomes stabilised. Then it becomes very clear. Then the experience of transparency will {inaudible}. And when you experience, a person will feel radiance bright. Means when you see him, you will find radiance bright, you know?
Participant 1: You mean this person see other person, radiance bright? -
Well i tends to agree with Thusness on the lankavatara Sutra
but i feel that making vows is important
Why our Buddhist sometimes become trivial office politics player is they forgot the contentment of living in the present moment and helping other as they go along
sad sad ... try to speak to those temple hot-tempered attendant auntie
-
Don't know about the vows... it is an interesting question... but Thusness said:Originally posted by bohiruci:Well i tends to agree with Thusness on the lankavatara Sutra
but i feel that making vows is important
Why our Buddhist sometimes become trivial office politics player is they forgot the contentment of living in the present moment and helping other as they go along
sad sad ... try to speak to those temple hot-tempered attendant auntie Participant 1: DoesnÂ’t it mean that for you, you have to take it at faith level, make the vow and experience it yourself?
Thusness: Ok, uh, taking vows of course I have taken already lah. It is the implication of, when you take a vow, what is your mindset, and how should you prepare. I mean the vows, I have taken quite a few times. But, what is the implications of the vows, why the vows are needed? This is another story. Can you see what I mean or not? How people actually experience it and what does it mean? I mean a vow, we have taken it what. So this is one thing that I cannot understand. How is it that a vow at that level brings you to another stage. And you must understand, it is only at that level, you know. Otherwise I donÂ’t think it serves much purpose. -
(continued from above)
Thusness: Because once a person experience non-duality, there is no holding, there is just luminosity. There is just a pure sense of existence, of clarity, of all things. Somehow, there is an utmost joy and energy that flows from everywhere, that sustains a person. This is its nature.
Participant 1: So mine is only on a thought level is it? Seeing that there is no difference between the thoughts and {inaudible}
Thusness: Actually I will suggest many people to start from meditation, and then feel the calmness. There is such a stage called the dark nights that can be very painful. Dark night are stages of experiences of non duality... the momentum somehow reacted much faster, and became more intense, that created some problems. Created a lot of pain for the experiencer.
Participant 1: I donÂ’t think I am very near that, right? {laughs}
Thusness: {inaudible} Because it comes all of a sudden, you see. Just all of a sudden {inaudible} the experience of non-duality. But you must understand, first, you must take this very seriously first. First, take the teachings of Buddha very seriously, and no-self, what is impermanence, these serves as a good {inaudible} It serves as good conditions for it to come. Means that if not, what you will experience is mostly what I call is the Eternal Witness. The best that you can see is that thoughts seems to be taking place, then it seems to be taking place WITHIN consciousness. So consciousness becomes like a background container you know, a very big container then the things are taking place, which is not the case. Having that experience, because your moment of experience is being shaped by your momentum, that molded you to experience that way.
Because there is nothing that is telling them there is a kind of understanding or there is a kind of experience that is not like that. You were taught like that. You get it? Like in Buddhism they teach you otherwise. They teach you not to see things in terms of “I”, not to see things in terms of a “where” and a “when”. Let’s say something very simple. When I say that things happen, it is not like those people that subscribe to think that anything is just taking by itself, it’s nature. Mainly what is important is conditions. You must have the conditions, then things can surface. When the conditions is there, they just surfaces, and manifest. If there is cause in ten million miles away or ten million light years away, or whatever it is, or in other realms, as long as there is conditions, it WILL surface, it is not travelling {inaudible}. Can you understand this part? Condition is there, they just manifest. This is one thing.
The second thing, to break the view of an entity, when we say that, where? Why must we keep of asking where? Why must we keep on asking who? Where does the seed of propensity reside? It doesnÂ’t reside anywhere. DonÂ’t ask where. ItÂ’s just the way it is. Because whenever you ask where, who, and when, it is because you are very accustomed to our way of inquiry. The way we enquire. It is an inquiry system only. It is not reality. It is just the way you ask things only. It is just the way we are molded, and therefore we ask things this way. If we ask things this way, then the idea of God is more {inaudible} You see, the idea of God is based on the first cause, right? What is God? God is the first cause. But why must there be a first cause? There is a first cause because there is a limit to the way we think. It is due to the poverty of our own thinking mechanism. The mind requires a base to start. So it is for the thinking mind to understand. It is not reality. Only the mind needs to understand this way. Reality doesnÂ’t behave that way. Can you see? So we are trying to fit reality into a model of concept. Correct?
Participant 1: Into our knowledge.
Thusness: Ya, into not our knowledge only, (but also) into the entire system of mechanism that we enquire, that we see, that we perceive. Let’s say for example you ask the first cause. Why do you ask the first cause? Because the mind needs something to compare. Because the mind works through measurement, right? So there must be something, then the mind can work, otherwise the mind cannot work. Mind (different context of the word ‘Mind’ here) is a thinking mind. So this first cause is being created, otherwise the mind cannot understand. “Can you understand how the what comes about, oh, you mean this.” You get it?
Participant 1: I tried practising what you call this non-discrimination without concept, as a {inaudible}. When there is thought, Instead of using the momentum of mantra, I so call in way, substitute the mantra with a so call {inaudible} call of no thought. In a way itÂ’s like, I so call try to go through my mind without thoughts, interpretation, but the momentum and all those still come.
Thusness: I can understand, then you will be in struggling, you know.
Participant 1: {inaudible}
Thusness: You see, the mind will not be {inaudible} unless it {inaudible} suffering and pain you know... so painful until you want to drop everything. Then you {inaudible} stop for a moment. That is because through {inaudible} not stop the thinking mind. But if you were to {inaudible} awareness, or any kind of awareness to be aware of things. You are simply aware, but there is no symbols. If you continue to practise this and this until one day, it need not be very long you know, probably will take a few months or a few years, if you can put in effort to just practise it without all these layers of symbols, you just practise insight: Awareness and awareness and awareness... You experience clarity and joy. You get what I mean? Once you experience this, the mind is able to know “Actually I can do without symbols” and there is certain bliss and certain joy and energy, can you understand this part? {inaudible}
Let’s say there are two beautiful girls. Let’s say for example, you are attached to a lady. Then one fine day... you realise that there are girls that are of better look or whatever, qualities, than the current girls. Don’t talk about morality lah. {laughs} Once you realise that, and you experience that, you can drop away your girlfriend you know. It’s something like that. When you experience a higher reality, that “oh, you can know without thoughts.” And you feel {inaudible} to drop the thinking mechanism {inaudible} because you experience something else.
Participant 1: But then the momentum is so strong that even after that, it still comes up?
Thusness: Ok now, this is what I call, the insight. The work of insight. The momentum can continue, but it does not bother you. When you have the insight of something {inaudible} in Lankavatara Sutra, it taught the Transcendental Intelligence. Or the turning point. Ok, once you experience that joy, you are willing to drop the thinking mind. It means that the way you perceive reality, suddenly there is a turning. This turning itself replaces the whole of the way you perceive things and understand things. Then, the way of momentum of the thinking mind plays a secondary role. It doesnÂ’t subside, it hides behind.
Participant 1: The thoughts still arise, but you can actually not differentiate it, and it will not affect you?
Thusness: Correct. You are able to do that.
Participant 1: But I am able to do that to a certain extend only, you know. Something I just use it {inaudible}
Thusness: You must keep on asking yourself this. Is there an observer? You practise observing. Means, {inaudible}. But Truthz (Participant 1), I know you practise very hard, but it will take time one. {laughs} You understand? -
Participant 1: Yeah, I donÂ’t expect it tomorrow lah. {laughs}
Thusness: Don’t just not expect it tomorrow. Don’t expect anything, just let it flow. Same thing, for example, when you practise and practise and then suddenly you just dare to allow yourself to be transformed and let things arise and subside without an “I”, without a “Where”, without a “When”, with clear luminous clarity you know. The funny funny kind of non-scientific phenomena will occur, you know.
Participant 1: So the meditation, the chanting, the question of “Who Am I?” are actually not relevant?
Thusness: Yes, but are you able to feel with clarity and let things arise without a center, just arise. If I were to tell you that suddenly you lost and then you pop somewhere else, reappear, can you take it or not? {laughs} You will not be able to take it you know, itÂ’s not what you think you know, Truthz.
A Self is there to put it back. ItÂ’s just like a car trying to crash onto you... Suddenly your blood rush up, kalang kaboh. Can you see what you mean or not? After you experience the luminous clarity, you must learn the second door, the arising and the passing away. Until these two arise, they take strength and gather strength, then you can talk about that. That is the 8th Bhumi stage and above. It is not easy to say, instantaneously you are gone and you appear somewhere. Then there is suddenly the awareness you are at another {inaudible}. You wonÂ’t be able to take it you know, donÂ’t think you can. You will not be able to, trust me.
Participant 1: “Practice” (Participant 3) has this question on the Window.
Thusness: Ok. Windows programming.
Participant 1: Not lah, the chat window lah. {laughs}
Thusness: Ok. I thought you entered into Programming.
Participant 1: The question is “Does that mean that we try to practise the right conditions such as meditation for the mind in order to let the luminosity to arise.”
Thusness: Luminosity will always arise. It never fails to arise. Now, let me tell you what is luminosity in the simplest sense. Have you ever experienced suffering? Or you experience anything. Suffering... Suffering is actually luminosity. Otherwise how do you know it is suffering? Why the pain is so real? Anything that is real, that you feel, that you touch, anything that you feel so real. It is actually luminosity. How can you know what suffering is all about? Without thoughts or what, you still feel suffering, right? The presence of suffering, any kind of existence that is made available is actually the manifestation of this luminous clarity. You get it? However, they are fused with the momentum. They are fused with attachment. And the entire fusing and the entire working of the momentum, that instance, the manifestation is suffering. Everything is like that, you have to feel the pain. Can you understand what I mean or not? When you feel the sand, or you see the texture or you take the stone out, and the texture is so and so, that is actually luminosity also.
Participant 1: Is it that when that arises, the so called momentum cause us to label it?
Thusness: Yes, the first thing {inaudible} the Seventh Consciousness will actually label it and then lead to the “self”. But there are other forms of attachment, other forms of thoughts, that are as strong as “self”. Like for example, Nub, to look for spiritual powers. {laughs} It’s a momentum that actually controls his entire mind, but it’s OK you know, just like Longchen said you know, it is ok to seek, but you cannot let things control you that way. To know something that is beyond has always been inside us. Even for scientists. It has always been part of us. Curiosity to know that we are more than this. We are more than what you see as surface. It’s ok to have that. But we’re so engrossed and so controlled by it that you fail to see what it is it, what it means. To me, it is our nature. But if you were to see it as something to seek, to go for, to find, and then to grab, then you are leading to a very dangerous path because there is a momentum that you cannot control. Alright?
I think when we are young, somehow we are very attracted by all these, it’s OK. You know when I was very young, probably 20 years ago. I can stare at a candle day and night for six hours, ten hours. Then everytime I practise one hour, one and a half hour, without blinking my eyes, then tears kept running down my eyes. I just stared at the candle only. This is what we call “Qi Men Tian Shu”, one of the practise. We are so excited by all these. Then because of the power of concentration, because you kept on concentrating, it was so intense... then your concentration becomes very powerful and it just stays there. Then one day, you close your eyes, the next stage, I practised that for a few months and then just close your eyes, and you just focus something on your forehead... Wah, that one is very.... Then later the thing that you focus in your forehead, you just cannot get rid of it. You know how painful is that? When you sleep, it is also there. It is something like sticking down there, you know. But it’s fun mah, just dunno mah, read some books {laughs} then looked for some master and then start practising. Can you see what I mean? That is very dangerous. You see, everybody goes through certain phases. So the right kind of understanding is very important.
Participant 1: I got question. I practise more on chanting.. so while chanting, you know, running through the momentum. How does that coincide with developing insights? Because when my mind learn from my experience, or whatever, it is actually the propensities, there is a “self” already right?
Thusness: That is ok. It doesnÂ’t mean that if you cannot understand the ultimate reality of your nature, you will be doomed. {laughs} There are many levels you know. When you exert positive qualities like concentration and all these, it affects your mind.
The problem now, Truthz, is you want to go beyond that and search, experience your true nature. That is the problem, you know. LetÂ’s say you are those old ah mahs, they just practise and they just chant, they will feel very happy you know.
Participant 1: Actually I donÂ’t feel any joy leh... {laughs}
Thusness: Ya, that is why I said, you are searching for the higher reality. To experience more of your true nature. Therefore it is because you cannot get it, that causes the suffering and causes the pain of the struggle. Not because of the practise of the chant that has the quality of making you calm and something positive. Something positive is taking place if you practise correctly. But there is another desire to go beyond this, because you think that this is not the thing that you are seeking, it doesn’t feel like what I am supposed to experience. This is what that is causing the pain. Then when you read texts, and then you listen to Masters, then you listen to some friends like me, then you get more... “hey, it’s not this and it’s not that” and you get more confused. But this is necessary to go through. You understand? It is this that is causing pain, it is not the chanting that is causing the pain. {inaudible} is creating a positive momentum.
Participant 1: So while doing chanting, it is actually good at the initial level to practise some discernment to understand the nature of thoughts, to examine how the distracting thoughts actually react, what happens, and reflect on that. -
Thusness: Ya, from one level to another. Let’s say you practise chanting, or you practise meditation. If I am contented 20 years ago with just the experience of being calm, I’ll be OK for {inaudible} years. I can rest on there. Then you can practise I Ching also, like last time I practise those I Ching and all these. Your life will continue and you’ll be happy, you know. But that is a different kind of understanding. But once that person says that, “Oh, I want to know the ultimate reality.” Correct? Then you say that hey those practises, though they can bring certain qualities, I cannot have that kind of feeling that I have known all the things. You get what I mean? That is the problem that cause you to feel the pain. But it is also not right for me to tell you that you all have to go into insight, there is life after death, there is past lives and all these. What I think is that there must be certain faith in the Buddha. Do what the Buddha teach and experience accordingly, that is enough. Your understanding will change.
For example, a person in one fine day just experience the past life, suddenly, this life becomes very meaningless. Last time seems to be very important, but (now) becomes very meaningless. So when the insight just comes, there is a total change. Correct? Now when Buddha say that Life is Suffering, and this is one of the universal truths, he is not talking about psychological pain and all that kinds of pain you know. How can a person, a human that has memories of millions of lives before, and then millions of lives before he can recall, tell you about... heÂ’s seeing things again and again, life after life, and they tell you, life is suffering. And that is the suffering that he meant. Alright? It is not like the psychologists that start telling you this is the psychological pain, that kind of things you know. The insight is different. So when the experience comes, your perspective will definitely change, you just let it be. But when you practise that time, you keep on wanting to reach a certain level of stage, then that is pain. You just let it be.
Participant 1: But isnÂ’t that more or less... that is also a form of motivation, right?
Thusness: ItÂ’s a form of motivation, but you must know that, can you take it? ItÂ’s also going to be stressful and painful.
Participant 1: {inaudible} {laughs}
Thusness: So it is good that you can take it. But you must also remember that the suffering is there. It can be very painful, you know. So take step by step.
Participant 1: So if I choose a path that no need suffering and is also the same lah, {laughs} of course practise donÂ’t suffer is better.
Thusness: You see the thing is there must be a middle way lah, hor? You donÂ’t choose the extreme, you donÂ’t go to the extreme. Having said that, you also must know that, when you {inaudible} to the minutest details of your thoughts, it is actually very painful, alright. When you want to zoom in to a moment of arising, and then the momentum is acting, it can very painful you know.
Participant 1: If I see without so called discriminating and differentiating it?
Thusness: But first of all you must understand non-discrimination takes place after the formation of perception, means you identify with an object. You know. Then there is a perception. But for discriminations to take place, you have to have something extra. That is seeing things in a form of entity. Then you will discriminate. Means you see things in a dualistic mode, then you discriminate. Me, and you. This, and that. If you say a {inaudible} exists, a moment of thought arise, and you donÂ’t discriminate it, that is also possible. Discriminate {inaudible} as practise, then slowly, you attain the qualities of the mind to see a higher reality. For example you practise, say, those positive {inaudible} wholesome actions. The paramitas. You will feel you know... then the joy itself is a kind of fruition, that enables you to go beyond this self. Then you slowly release. But that does not mean you have seen what your nature is. It just loosens the bonds of attachment by feeling the fruit, that is the quality of joy. Then you can slowly release and then be able to see. LetÂ’s say the other way, taking {inaudible} clairvoyance and that kind of things, your self is being strengthened. ItÂ’s a different... instead of being {inaudible}
You delegate how long to chanting?
Participant 1: At least half an hour... throughout most of my time, if I can, I am chanting inside lah. Actually I donÂ’t see any so called sessions.
Thusness: That means you chant every moment?
Participant 1: I try to.
Thusness: Do you chant in your dreams?
Participant 1: That one cannot. If I do that, I cannot sleep lor.
Thusness: In your dreams, you know. Something happens, then can you chant?
Participant 1: Never occurred yet.
Thusness: In your dreams you never chant before?
Participant 1: These days no, last time, ya.
Thusness: Last time {inaudible}
Participant 1: You mean in dreams something occur then I chant in response? Ya lah.
Thusness: So when you chant in the dream, what happen, what you see?
Participant 1: In the dreams something bad occurred, I chanted, then the illusion was gone, I was out of the dream lor.
Thusness: But when you chant that time, have you felt anything?
Thusness: You just wake up from your dream lah, after you chant?
Participant 1: Yah.
Thusness: Ok. So you continue to practise chanting lah, I think that is good for you.
How long have you been practising chanting? Practise (Participant 3), do you practise Chanting or not? Practise? Hello?
Participant 1: Cannot hear him. Maybe heÂ’s {inaudible} on purpose.
Thusness: Ran away already. {laughs}
Participant 1: He have lah, on off lah.
Thusness: Any form of practise on {inaudible} so you create certain kind of yuan to go forward. {Inaudible} to experience the propensities and the bond to realise the importance of this. So donÂ’t underestimate it.
Participant 1: So I try to use both chanting and what just now I described to you, just no thought. As in the seeds arise, I “bo chap” (ignore) it, and the seed dies.
Thusness: Ok when you “bo chap” your thoughts, what do you actually mean?
Participant 1: What I sometime sees is like what you describe, the thoughts arises in a very big container, then dies lor.
Thusness: When the thoughts arise, and you “bo chap” it, what you {inaudible} is the content, the stories, the meaning, and all these types of things. You react to the content and the meanings of it.
Participant 1: Yeah, I ignore it.
Thusness: {Inaudible}... You react to the content. You try to find meaning to it. Just like last time I told you, you give you your thoughts, but how? Because you attempt to find meaning. You see what I mean? You must know that these thoughts, you cannot react to the content.
Participant 1: From the chanting I understand this, and more or less I see a bit.
Thusness: Yes from the chanting I know you understand because the way you describe it {inaudible} You must be able to see, to understand what is actually the problem is the reaction to the content. -
Participant 1: One thing that puzzles me is sometimes ignoring it you know, as in not reacting to the content, is this also a thought?
Thusness: This is a thought, but you are not reacting to the content.
Participant 1: So this is the part I said, no thought lor.
Thusness: {inaudible} Means to strip out the formations of the feelings, the emotions, donÂ’t buy into the story. Then later you strip out the perception.
Participant 1: So the first step is to strip out the meaning, the content, then later the perception.
Thusness: That will be easier lah.
Participant 1: Actually whatÂ’s the difference huh?
Thusness: Oh, a lot of difference... You see, {inaudible} there are many {inaudible} I call the dimensions for a human, the make-ups. One of them is the emotion. The other one is the mythical aspect, and then the spiritual aspect. Ok, perception has a lot to do with the rationality. Perception is the thing that even without feeling it seeks to explain, like a philosopher. You understand?
Participant 1: Ok, without feeling?
Thusness: Now, without feeling, not that you become a rock you know, you must be able to experience calmness. It must be transformed. Everything is being transformed. LetÂ’s say for example the feeling and perception, the absence of all these must be transformed to bliss. We call the Nirodha Samapatti (Nirvana of the Cessation of Perceptions and Feelings). You heard of it, right?
Participant 1: I think so.
Thusness: Thus the stripping off of the feelings must result in calmness. Have you felt a sense of energy flowing around?
Participant 1: Something like Qi/Chi?
Thusness: It is not actually Qi, you know. Qi is another thing. It is like vibration, like an energy force. A vibration. Qi is something that is different... Qi is the concentrated movement of your mind. It is a directed thought, that is Qi.
Participant 1: So that is an energy that is flowing around your body, is it?
Thusness: It is a natural energy that is flowing, you know. Have you ever felt that before?
Participant 1: I think so.
Thusness: Maybe another day, then we meet up, and then I can understand more of your things, your experiences.
Participant 1: But my experiences are not consistent, you know.
Thusness: Of course lah, the consistencies comes from... it actually has to do a lot with the bond or the momentum you have {inaudible}. Insight actually burns the bond away. Insight meditation, insight into reality. You understand suddenly... the bond loosens, just breaks. Then stability is it must sink very deep into your consciousness, then it becomes stable. When I say sink into consciousness, it doesnÂ’t mean that there are {inaudible}. It is just for the sake of saying it has to sink very deep down.
Consciousness, when I say that there is a sub conscious, and there is the conscious level. And I say what is done in the conscious level must sink very deep down into the sub conscious of they call {inaudible} and the 8th consciousness. When somebody said that, straight away the thinking mind thought that there is a sub conscious mind and a conscious mind, they are two, they are different. {inaudible}
The sub conscious, the propensities, and what we call the conscious level are just mental states only. They are all the same. And you have to understand that they do not reside anywhere. When {inaudible} We are in a conventional world. The thinking mind will divide the conscious and the sub conscious and think that they are separate. The thinking mind will treat it as that way.
Just like I said... is your head separated from your neck? {laughs} Is your legs separated from your head? {laughs} So first of all you must understand these first. You must be able to see things as a whole, and treat things as a process first. Just like you always hear people say “shi bai shi cheng gong zhi mu” (failure is the mother of success) Then you say that, this person fail. Then this person succeeds. Then to the person, at that moment he fail, is actually the beginning of success. To you, that is failure. But to him, that is the beginning of success. {inaudible} Same flow. But the mind goes and divides it, and you think that there is a very distinct layer, this is success. {inaudible} But the mind continues to divide, and that is the problem. {inaudible}
Now can concentration lead to the understanding of reality, I said I donÂ’t think so. Correct? Because it requires insights. {inaudible}... of a subject and an object.... {inaudible}
Participant 1: John, itÂ’s lagging.
Thusness: Now, can you hear me?
Participant 1: Yes.
Thusness: Ok. Just now can you understand about the success and failure?
Participant 1: Yes. That one is very clear. You are trying to relate to chanting right?
Thusness: Now I ask you one thing, another thing. IÂ’ve told you a story before... lets say there are three partners that are very close to each other that set up a company. Then they are very successful, they earned a lot of money. Now one fine day, someone {inaudible} tell you the companyÂ’s success because of.. {inaudible} John, you, {inaudible} tell me the companyÂ’s success {inaudible} is because of them {inaudible} Then they go and do alone, set up their own company. {inaudible} Then, three of them think that {inaudible} understand why we fail. Actually for success, three of us come in together. {inaudible} they start fighting, fail again. {inaudible}
Participant 1: John, itÂ’s lagging.
Thusness: {inaudible} Why is it so?
Participant 1: You are saying that the three persons go into business again, at another time, together, but still failed. Thinking that the conditions for the success is {inaudible} three together, is because of the timing lor, and other factors. The timing is different, all the external factors {inaudible} changes.
Thusness: {inaudible} competitors and all these. So what is success? It is just an appearance. The {inaudible} of all things, the cause, the conditions, that forms success right? Ok. Now, if we were to see just success and just failure and identify with it, we will see life and death... and think that they really exist, hidden some place, some where. But success and failure will keep on arising and then subside as long as these interactions are there. Can you see what I mean?
Participant 1: Can you explain?
Thusness: If I were to strike a matchstick, then they burn. Correct? Fire. Fire is so clear and so real. Then suddenly the fire is gone. Then you ask one question... where has the fire gone to? It may sound stupid, right? But where has the fire gone to? Then you say the fire has gone to the east and west and north and south direction. Because we always treat things as entities and then the question we ask where it goes, north east south west, has no meaning at all. {inaudible} When you ask a question, and that is not how the way it works. How can you answer? Can you see? Then you ask, there has to be a “where” what. How can there be no “where”? There must be a direction, it is either up or down, left or right. Can you ask that? Can you understand what I mean? Because {inaudible} try to apply into a system of enquiry. And you think that the enquiry is so real, that is the only way things can be, so you ask all sorts of questions that {inaudible} but just by simply a {inaudible} then it is gone then you cannot ask these sort of question. -
Same thing, when you view things in a form of entities, “I”, bonded because of the momentum of your attachment of your body and all your karmic propensities, you think it is so. So you ask all these sort of questions, correct? But in Buddhism they already tell you that the nature is not like that, it is altogether different, the nature is empty. Correct or not? But you continue to go by that way of enquiry, you can never understand.
{inaudible} how are you going to know? {inaudible} In Buddhism it is being taught this is the way. I mean you experience it, it is different.
Participant 1: It is a paradigm shift?
Thusness: Yes. It is a paradigm so when you see it is like that, you will never ask that question again. {inaudible} “who” {inaudible} Then the momentum is gone. That momentum. Because you stop {inaudible} insight. This is not the way it works. This is how reality is. You know what I mean?
Participant 1: Ok. So through seeing in itself than through the conceptual mind, we are able to...
Thusness: {inaudible} that there is no self, that everything is impermanent. They explained to you, the dependent origination, correct? They explain to you, the karmic propensities, correct? And then they devise a way of, in order to know Reality, {inaudible}
Participant 1: Lagging, the last sentence.
Thusness: Insight meditation deals with the arising and cessation and the clarity of the arising and cessation. This is the practise taught in Buddhism, right? So you must adopt this way, you must learn this way, you must see this way {inaudible} You cannot adopt the other way to see, the other way {inaudible}
Participant 1: The other way in what sense?
Thusness: The other way of “Who?” “Where?” “When?”
Participant 1: You mean that the Buddha taught the right way to enquire, how to enquire.
Thusness: {inaudible} tells you the experience, right? They explain the origination, taught the {inaudible} meditation way, correct?
This is the way. You must {inaudible} that these are what the Buddha said. You get it? So you must follow {inaudible}
Participant 1: Lagging. Are you saying we should follow what the Buddha taught in terms of the meditation, insight meditation, to experience the three dharma seals, and all these?
Thusness: {inaudible}... and then the way of seeing things, and the way of explaining things. It must be part of you right? If you do one thing like that, then on the other hand you do like that, then you mixed up. Of course you cannot see Reality right, true or not?
{Inaudible} the way of seeing things {inaudible} that means This is, That is. We have to practise to see the twelve links, we have to practise to see the karmic propensities, see the three universal seals, all that kinds of things, correct?
Participant 1: Yeah.
Thusness: {inaudible} practise insight meditation. But your enquiry system... you keep on enquiring “Who am I?” “What?” “Where?”
Participant 1: Hmm. So youÂ’re saying that our practise, which is the insight meditation and all these doesnÂ’t coincide with our way of thinking?
Thusness: {inaudible} The thinking must be that way, it was taught that way. {inaudible} then they tell you this is the way. You have to practise that way, right?
Participant 1: How do you {inaudible} that way if the thinking mind is always based on the ego?
Thusness: No. Therefore they say ok, this is the way, that there is no self. So you must practise {inaudible} philosophy, understanding, practise, meditation and all these, all into one, you will experience it. But if you {inaudible} then you canÂ’t.
{END OF LANKAVATARA SUTRA DISCUSSION SESSION} -
[moved to The Spell of Karmic Propensities]
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[moved to The Spell of Karmic Propensities]
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I've read the whole Lankavatara Sutra (the shortened version) here: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/lankavatara_sutra.htm
A very good read. Highly recommended. With the sharing above, you should be able to gain a better understanding of the Sutra. -
The following e-mail I sent last year's December should give a short intro to what Lankavatara Sutra is about (source: Skype Sharing on Lankavatara Sutra by Thusness):
Hi all,
Thusness (John), an experienced practitioner/meditator with deep insights and clarity is willing to share on how Lankavatara Sutra can help and serve as a guide for an individual like himself in understanding more about our true nature. He takes Lankavatara Sutra as one of his main sutra guide.
Lankavatara Sutra is a very important doctrinal text that is the basis of the viewpoints of the Yogacara school. The sutra was also foundational in establishing the central tenets of Mahayana Buddhism, and especially Zen. Prior to the growing attention on the Diamond Sutra after 6th Patriarch Hui Neng, Lankvatara Sutra served as the prominent Sutra in the Ch'an (Zen) tradition.
The Lankavatara Sutra also belongs to what is known as the 'Third Turning of the Wheel of the Dharma'. To the first turning, it ascribes the Agamas of the Shravakas, to the second turning the lower Mahayana sutras including the Prajna-paramita Sutras, and finally sutras like Lankavatara, which primarily teach the doctrine of vijnapti-matra or 'representation-only', associated with the Yogacara school, are deemed to comprise the third turning.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lankavatara_Sutra
However, as John has said, what is taught in Lankavatara Sutra can be mapped to meditative experiences. It is not meant to be philosophical. It would certainly be a rare opportunity to hear from someone experienced to share about this sutra.
The Lankavatara Sutra is one of the most important sutras (sacred texts) of Mahayana Buddhism. According to tradition, these are the actual words of the Buddha as he entered Sri Lanka (formerly called Ceylon). This sutra figured prominently in the development of Chinese, Tibetan and Japanese Buddhism. It is the cornerstone of Chinese Chan and its Japanese version, Zen, and was translated from Sanskrit into Japanese and English by the foremost exponent of Zen, Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki.
The most important doctrine issuing from the Lanka is that of the primacy of consciousness, often called simply "Mind Only", meaning that consciousness is the only reality. The sutra asserts that all the objects of the world, and the names and forms of experience, are merely manifestations of the mind. It is the erroneous concept of subject/object that ties us to the wheel of rebirth.
The Lanka also suggests another important Mahayana doctrine, developed in later Buddhism, and that is the three bodies of Buddhahood, in effect the three levels of enlightened reality:
* transcendental dimension ( = Sanskrit dharmakaya) - the ultimate level of enlightenment, which is beyond names and forms
* celestial dimension, (= Sanskrit sambhogakaya) - expression of the symbolic and archetypal dimension of Buddhahood, to which only the spiritually developed have access
* terrestrial or transformational dimension, ( = Sanskrit nirmanakaya) - The dimension of Buddhahood to which the unenlightened have access, and where the phenomena of the world exist.
As this is an online Skype discussion, one can also raise questions pertaining to the teachings of Lankavatara Sutra and its practises, and we can discuss about it online.
It's a bit early but I thought making an early announcement to you all will allow more time for people to plan their schedule ahead.
I will be leaving for China between 24/12/06 to 2/1/07 so if there are any queries you can ask them in the forum and others can reply or I will reply when I am back.
Hope you can join, more info including time and date can be found at http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=226722
And to all: if there is any friend who might be interested pls help me forward this to them as well.
Regards,
An Eternal Now -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
You forget to mention ,the third period of the turning of the Dharma as stated in the Samdhinirocana Sutra [Jie Sheng Mi Jing]
The following e-mail I sent last year's December should give a short intro to what Lankavatara Sutra is about (source: Skype Sharing on Lankavatara Sutra by Thusness):
Hi all,
Thusness (John), an experienced practitioner/meditator with deep insights and clarity is willing to share on how Lankavatara Sutra can help and serve as a guide for an individual like himself in understanding more about our true nature. He takes Lankavatara Sutra as one of his main sutra guide.
Lankavatara Sutra is a very important doctrinal text that is the basis of the viewpoints of the Yogacara school. The sutra was also foundational in establishing the central tenets of Mahayana Buddhism, and especially Zen. Prior to the growing attention on the Diamond Sutra after 6th Patriarch Hui Neng, Lankvatara Sutra served as the prominent Sutra in the Ch'an (Zen) tradition.
The Lankavatara Sutra also belongs to what is known as the 'Third Turning of the Wheel of the Dharma'. To the first turning, it ascribes the Agamas of the Shravakas, to the second turning the lower Mahayana sutras including the Prajna-paramita Sutras, and finally sutras like Lankavatara, which primarily teach the doctrine of vijnapti-matra or 'representation-only', associated with the Yogacara school, are deemed to comprise the third turning.
However, as John has said, [b]what is taught in Lankavatara Sutra can be mapped to meditative experiences. It is not meant to be philosophical. It would certainly be a rare opportunity to hear from someone experienced to share about this sutra.
As this is an online Skype discussion, one can also raise questions pertaining to the teachings of Lankavatara Sutra and its practises, and we can discuss about it online.
It's a bit early but I thought making an early announcement to you all will allow more time for people to plan their schedule ahead.
I will be leaving for China between 24/12/06 to 2/1/07 so if there are any queries you can ask them in the forum and others can reply or I will reply when I am back.
Hope you can join, more info including time and date can be found at http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=226722
And to all: if there is any friend who might be interested pls help me forward this to them as well.
Regards,
An Eternal Now[/b] -
I also forgot to mention something I just found.... that is that it was Bodhidharma, the First Chan (Zen) Patriarch in China, who introduced Lankavatara Sutra to China, and that was the ONLY Sutra that he recommended.
Yes, Samdhinirmochana was the sutra that talked about the three turnings. FYI, Samdhinirmochana Sutra in English has just been uploaded to the Internet recently. I heard about this sutra from Thusness quite long ag, Thusness likes it, though I haven't read it, but sounds interesting.Originally posted by bohiruci:You forget to mention ,the third period of the turning of the Dharma as stated in the Samdhinirocana Sutra [Jie Sheng Mi Jing]
URL to Samdhinirmochana Sutra: http://www.empty-universe.com/yogacara/samdhinirmocana.htm -
Ah just found out the chinese name of the sutra
This sutra is seriously a very great sutra
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Bodhisattva Mahamati ask Buddha Sakyamuni is the structure of a statement body .Statement body itself cannot leads one to liberation .Buddha Sakyamuni
answered him by transforming the answer to teachings
Only a Buddha can transform answers of a statement body to teachings
thats the beauty of Lankavatara
understanding based on ven ci hang teachings on Yogacara ,touching on aspect of Lankatara