Where are all the Singaporean programmers?
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A indian collegue told me that his indian friend working in Citibank told him that all the software guys there ( I imagine the Oracle developers ), are from India. Whereas the managers are all chinese (should be Singaporeans or Malaysians I guess). Now I would estimate that the ratio of indians would be 20 to one Singaporean. So I would imagine that if I work in a bank as a Oracle developer, all of my closest collegues would likely be Indians?
Then this Singaporean chinese collegue told me that she works in this CDE or something company that built the SCADA for the MRTs, and all of the software programmers are also Indians! And she said that Sinaporeans programming skill are lousy.She has been working only on the graphics of SCADA systems and no chance to touch programming.
I got these two news and are a bit worried about my Oracle/SAP career.
Are the two observations above the general condition for software development in Singapore?
Where are all the Singapoeans programmers? They are not working in banks anymore except government ones with protection? They are all working in electronics manufacturing? Or there are no local talents here? How about the programmers from Malaysia?
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Programmers hard to earn money nowadays, usually they do freelance I think.
Doing IT these years made me realise that the big bucks come from Software Engineering and Database. I believe those who are good database analyst have already moved on to somewhere where their talents are well-paid like Japan.
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Japan? Interesting...
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Hello, there are lots of indians working in Citibank. It is the trend that sg companies hire indians from india to do IT jobs. As such, I meet locals from IT line having problem looking for IT jobs in sg
Well, locals' rice bowls are not protected, what to do!!!!!
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its nothing new.
most IT jobs are outsourced to indian and chinese nationals.
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Originally posted by dragg:
its nothing new.
most IT jobs are outsourced to indian and chinese nationals.
True, sometimes when we call helpdesk, it is the indian staff taking the calls from India. -
But I like database software! Let the Indians have all the programming fun and big bucks??
Now I need to learn the ropes from Indians from India?? I heard they are more willing to help their own people, no offense.
And banks are where the big bucks are!
I have a feeling that probably for database development, Singaporeans are more concentrated in manufacturing ERP instead of banking, in some small China man software company, no? Or they are dominated by Indians also???
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you can certainly compete with them if you can accept 1.5k a month ......
and no, the ah nehs are not any better than other people at programming, there are just more of them, that's all ....
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1.5k??? This sucks!!
......Wait a second... I read some ad that Singapore airport is hiring Oracle developer 5 years experience, 8k a month. But this is government protected.
And this ad below, there must be some hope! (but this is telekom...government protected....?)
Requirements:
-The role requires excellent analytical skills, as well as capability of
rapidly reaching a high competence level within all areas of the product,
both the functionality and the code structure. You must appreciate analyzing
complex problems, explaining, discussing and solving them together with
colleagues and customers.
-Developer background (Oracle PL/SQL, VB6, VB.NET) , familiar with Oracle
database (9i and/or 10g), and have 2nd/3rd line technical support
experience, will be an advantage.
-From a business perspective, knowledge and experience from the following is
a merit: International Telecom Business, Routing, Trading, Billing, Business
Operations System
-From a technical perspective, knowledge and experience from the following
is a merit: SQL development (Oracle PL/SQL and/or MS SQL Server), MS .NET
framework, VB .NET, VB6, Oracle Databases, MS SQL Server Databases, MS
Analysis Services and Reporting Services (including development of
DTS-functionality and Reporting Services reports in MS Visual Studio),
Windows Server 2000 and 2003
-Good Communication skills in both written and spoken English are a must.
Skill in other languages e.g Mandarin is a plus.
-This position is only open for those who currently present in Singapore or
holding relevant resident status in Singapore.
-Remuneration: SGD 3.5K – 4K per month plus Allowances. -
don't count on a goverment job to protect you dude, the way they give out citizenships like flyers ..............................................
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they give citizenship to any tom dick and harry.
sg citizenship - will it bcome like toilet paper oneday?
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just feedback one of the many possible reasons so many foreigners. gahmen got foreign labor policy as per MOM. if the bosses hire more foreigners, maximum to the allowable raio,the can show higher management, borad of directors they can save copst, during retrenchment the foreigners can go first of some of their own local colleagues just say they job perf not good (that's why so many locals complaint about bosses). So they also can save their own asses during bad times. with the foreign labours, as what i observed of many indian bangla workers. they can shout and raise voice at them for nothin.
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All come to 1 simple reason.
Cheap cheap labour.
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Why so little Singaporean programmers?
Because Singaporean programmers are known as project managers.
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Originally posted by Nelstar:
Why so little Singaporean programmers?
Because Singaporean programmers are known as project managers.
and one comes out fresh from an IT course from one of the polys or ITEs and becomes a project manager straight away ? .....
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Originally posted by likeyou:
All come to 1 simple reason.
Cheap cheap labour.
that's the open end. hidden end is like what i wrote the ratio of foreign against locals. if the bosses do that and keep foreign high, locals lower to the max permissible, during retrenchment that local boss safe. if he got competition from his own local colleagues that's when the crafty scheming applies. gahmen policies, MOM don't look at the problem at ground zero for each and every industries and fine tune just apply one rule does it all, local bosses do what has to be done to own keep safe, more locals not hired or got problem in new emplyment, land cost here still costly more businesses seek to go alternate sources, and inevitably of human nature local businesses and board of directors only want more money. so like that lor.don't hear what people do charaty lah, the money will be taxed anyway so instead of going to IRAS might as well do charity and get publci documented recognition
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Originally posted by Fatum:
and one comes out fresh from an IT course from one of the polys or ITEs and becomes a project manager straight away ? .....
Well asked.. lol...
Anyway, all programmers are the same level la.. I am an Indian and am in the Network Field, Cisco routers/switches, MPLS networks e.t.c. Its just that there are more of them. Another reason might be, the Singaporeans who actually studied computer science/engineering do not end up taking their academic related jobs. For example out of my 6 close friends, all computer engineers from NTU, only one local guy is into programming. 3 are in banks in other fields, I am in networking, another is in mindef doing some other stuff.. So no hardcore programmers.. But whereas those from India, they studied computer science with the core interest being in programming..
Anyway, just my thinking =) My 2 cents worth.. -
I think think Singapore school even like Polytechnic don't really groom you to be an programmer, current now as I am studying Poly part-time, when we tried to ask question related to programming from our teacher, our teacher just said why we want to ask "silly" question this and that and we as a student must practice on our own then we will learn (in fact I don't know why we need a teacher at the first place if this is the case)
The problem always lie in the fact we don't learn programming early in secondary school like our "O" level for 4-5 years,(we definately will know English and Mathematics because we already have the background during primary school.) so you want Singaporean to have an talent in programming is just like asking Singaporean to create an excellent poems even if they are an beginner.Remember there is this saying : Programming are just like making poems, but few can make an excellent poems.
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Schools usually teach the basics of programming. Different programing may materialize or are realised in different platform. Some 'progammers' go into design or program realization, while others works as in maintenance or troubleshooting to ensure the system works, function 24/7, or their service triggered to analyze the fault when things fail.
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there are no much programmers in singapore is simply because singaporean don't want to do programming. it's very technical yet difficult to understand, so every penies that programmers earned is hard cash. there are the lowest level of IT staffs. singaporean simply just dont want to do that, they prefers to do analyst jobs that doesn't required some many detail areas needed to be attend and the pay is better than programmers.
if you ask every programmers if they were have fun with programming..answer is of course but does the pay equal to their talent, their very deep technical skills ..answer is no. but still better than their hometown.
anyway,...the big bucks doesn't always come from bank. sometime it just come from your own backyard.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
and one comes out fresh from an IT course from one of the polys or ITEs and becomes a project manager straight away ? .....
Well if you map the career path of Singaporean programmer and Indian programmer, it is quite easy to figure out.
Singaporean programmer -> sign contract for 2/3 years -> usually leaves in less than 3 years (mostly 1 year plus run) and go for other jobs like management/customer service/financial service for 2 yrs, realized IT still their forte -> come back to become project consultant/manager
Indian Indian programmer -> sign contract for 2/3 years -> stays for another 5/6 years as programmer
BTW i wont even hire poly programmers... less to say ITE programmers. I can hire Indian programmers from India cheaper. Even worse, I hire PRCs.
No offense but Singapore programmers either dont have required skill set, lack experience or simply too expensive to hire. Worse of all, all 3 add together.
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Nelstar i believe not all sgreans are without the flair for programing. Just that money and pay is to be the motivation for the hard work put in. If its not from indian will be china. but language is also the problem here. Those foregin labor comes here has to understand at least english.
my previous employment got one china man position is engineer definitely not those construction worker grade. but when he open his mouth to speak and present. i don't understand a word he says. and he even present it loud and proud like he some american speaker.
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Originally posted by kcockicht:
Nelstar i believe not all sgreans are without the flair for programing. Just that money and pay is to be the motivation for the hard work put in. If its not from indian will be china. but language is also the problem here. Those foregin labor comes here has to understand at least english.
my previous employment got one china man position is engineer definitely not those construction worker grade. but when he open his mouth to speak and present. i don't understand a word he says. and he even present it loud and proud like he some american speaker.
Seriously, will you pay an fresh ITE student or an Indian national/Chinese national with degree SGD1500 for programmer job? Will you pay fresh poly student or an Indian national/Chinese national with degree and 3 years exp SGD1800 for programmer job?
Will you even consider paying 2k to a fresh Singaporean degree holder for a programmer job when you can get an Indian national/Chinese national with degree and 5 years exp?
No matter how you do it, the same price you pay for a Singaporean can be replaced with an Indian/Chinese/Pinoy.
And the best part of the joke? Because these IT companies wanna show off their collection of Degree holders, will you think Singaporean IT companies will want to give chance to Singaporeans for programming?
The only programming job that requires a Singaporean will contain extremely sensitive information. I think I do not need to dwell into that.
As for whether the flair for programming, do you think HR staff know how to check?
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Originally posted by Nelstar:
Seriously, will you pay an fresh ITE student or an Indian national/Chinese national with degree SGD1500 for programmer job? Will you pay fresh poly student or an Indian national/Chinese national with degree and 3 years exp SGD1800 for programmer job?
Will you even consider paying 2k to a fresh Singaporean degree holder for a programmer job when you can get an Indian national/Chinese national with degree and 5 years exp?
No matter how you do it, the same price you pay for a Singaporean can be replaced with an Indian/Chinese/Pinoy.
And the best part of the joke? Because these IT companies wanna show off their collection of Degree holders, will you think Singaporean IT companies will want to give chance to Singaporeans for programming?
The only programming job that requires a Singaporean will contain extremely sensitive information. I think I do not need to dwell into that.
As for whether the flair for programming, do you think HR staff know how to check?
actually, I'm piqued by your last two posts, just curious, so what kind of people do you, or your company hire then ?
Singaporean project consultants and managers with, as you've put it, only one year plus of experience (plus couple more in some other line) .... do you pay them well ?
degree'ed ah tiongs and ah nehs as code monkeys, paying them peanuts ?
So those singkie project managers ? do that get to lord over and squeeze the nuts of the much more experienced code monkeys ?
do you check them for their "programming flair" ?
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Originally posted by Fatum:
actually, I'm piqued by your last two posts, just curious, so what kind of people do you, or your company hire then ?
Singaporean project consultants and managers with, as you've put it, only one year plus of experience (plus couple more in some other line) .... do you pay them well ?
degree'ed ah tiongs and ah nehs as code monkeys, paying them peanuts ?
So those singkie project managers ? do that get to lord over and squeeze the nuts of the much more experienced code monkeys ?
do you check them for their "programming flair" ?
Problem is HR staff. Hiring is never done by me. I seen too many Indians/Chinese/Pinoy until I pengz.
M for America *pengz*