cooking as a career
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hi, im currently studying in poly, and thinking of furthering my studies as a chef. have anyone of u here studied overseas for a chef degree or something like that? in italy or france? can u give recommendations on any good schools around and the advantages and disadvantages of being a chef? thanks (:
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hope tis helps:
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Originally posted by *prodigy*:
hope tis helps:
thanks for ur informative website (: -
I did my culinary studies in Canada. Currently working in Toronto, Canada as a sous chef in a 200 seater restaurant.
If you have the money ? Go to The CIA : Culinary Institute of America, best chef school in the world.. If you speak french, go to institute paul bocuse. Best school in europe.
I was part of Le Cordon Bleu Aus until i decided to drop out and move to Canada. It's just a bad school really.. Alot of chefs i know don't hire cooks from LCB, it's a franchise.
http://www.institutpaulbocuse.com/
Canada right now, it's the best place to do you culinary studies outside of europe. Best value for money and it's heavily french influnced here too. Do your research, Canada has been winning gold for the culinary olympics for years..
Msg me if you need more info. I'll send you a list of good culinary schools in Canada.
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to be a chef does not necessarily need a degree. experience is more important. disadvantages are long working hours. morning come in do mise-en-plus, dessert production etc. even if the restaurant operates on split shift chefs also still work till last kitchen order. weekends, Ph, all work. and most ppl start off as cooks not chefs. but dont know why some ppl like to call themselves chefs just cos they studied a culinary diploma or work in the kitchen. and cooks are earning only 1k plus a mth. and you can expect to work as a cook for quite some time say 3-4 years. furthermore, cook also got different grade. cook 1, 2, 3. after promotion you will be junior sous chef. in fact most chefs were kitchen helpers chopping vegetables before assuming their current position.
you can study at le cordon bleu learn french cuisine but dont expect the chef position when you come back they will ask you to start off as a cook. you want experience you can try asking for internship at michelin star restaurants. but most likely will be rejected. and even if you are accepted dont be surprised your superior ask you wash plates chop veg for some time before teaching you the ropes. and during dinner operations when the restaurant is running full hse, you must work very fast, be able to plan, delegate, ensure food quality, asthetics and also must know F&B cost control, how to price your menu to make a profit, ensure minimal food wastage. no point cook a dish and customer reject it cos not up to standard you have to cook again and you can only charge for 1 order but 2 orders left the kitchen. your food cost and food revenue is not proportionate. if busy there is no time to cook dishes again.
all this can only be achieved with experience not cert. imagine a rest 40 tables full house, guests come in one after another. table 1 places the order, 3 course appertiser-main-dessert at 7pm. table 2 comes in and places order at 715pm.table 1 appertiser goes out at 710pm.you now have to work on table 2 appertiser. and table 1 slow diners the service staff call for main course for table 1 and 2. you must work very fast at the same time ensure food quality, know what is priority. and its not just 2 tables calling for main course at the same time can be 5 or more. if u r sous chef, u have to ensure the team works in sync together, everybody knows when and what to do at what time. this is not attachment, training classroom practical kitchen or macdonald everything pre cooked to standby before busy dinner operations. even certain sauces chefs have to make on the spot upon order. not make the sauce before hand put in fridge customer order just take the sauce out and put in microwave or let it simmer in the pan. customers can taste the difference.
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Originally posted by bryanw:
to be a chef does not necessarily need a degree. experience is more important. disadvantages are long working hours. morning come in do mise-en-plus, dessert production etc. even if the restaurant operates on split shift chefs also still work till last kitchen order. weekends, Ph, all work. and most ppl start off as cooks not chefs. but dont know why some ppl like to call themselves chefs just cos they studied a culinary diploma or work in the kitchen. and cooks are earning only 1k plus a mth. and you can expect to work as a cook for quite some time say 3-4 years. furthermore, cook also got different grade. cook 1, 2, 3. after promotion you will be junior sous chef. in fact most chefs were kitchen helpers chopping vegetables before assuming their current position.
you can study at le cordon bleu learn french cuisine but dont expect the chef position when you come back they will ask you to start off as a cook. you want experience you can try asking for internship at michelin star restaurants. but most likely will be rejected. and even if you are accepted dont be surprised your superior ask you wash plates chop veg for some time before teaching you the ropes. and during dinner operations when the restaurant is running full hse, you must work very fast, be able to plan, delegate, ensure food quality, asthetics and also must know F&B cost control, how to price your menu to make a profit, ensure minimal food wastage. no point cook a dish and customer reject it cos not up to standard you have to cook again and you can only charge for 1 order but 2 orders left the kitchen. your food cost and food revenue is not proportionate. if busy there is no time to cook dishes again.
all this can only be achieved with experience not cert. imagine a rest 40 tables full house, guests come in one after another. table 1 places the order, 3 course appertiser-main-dessert at 7pm. table 2 comes in and places order at 715pm.table 1 appertiser goes out at 710pm.you now have to work on table 2 appertiser. and table 1 slow diners the service staff call for main course for table 1 and 2. you must work very fast at the same time ensure food quality, know what is priority. and its not just 2 tables calling for main course at the same time can be 5 or more. if u r sous chef, u have to ensure the team works in sync together, everybody knows when and what to do at what time. this is not attachment, training classroom practical kitchen or macdonald everything pre cooked to standby before busy dinner operations. even certain sauces chefs have to make on the spot upon order. not make the sauce before hand put in fridge customer order just take the sauce out and put in microwave or let it simmer in the pan. customers can taste the difference.
"to be a chef does not necessarily need a degree. experience is more important. "
That is true if you decide to work in Singapore or for a private owned restaurant. In Singapore, it is not important for you to get a degree or diploma, but it is still good to have one for the long run.
Like you said as i quote, "and cooks are earning only 1k plus a mth. and you can expect to work as a cook for quite some time say 3-4 years." My 1st job in Singapore upon getting my culinary degree, i was drawing out 1600 a month for a 3rd cook. Why ? Overseas studies. I don't want to mention the restaurant's name on a forum. 6 months into that job, it got up to 1800 before i left for a job in Canada.
Having a Culianry degree helps alot too when you decide to move aboard to work. I might not be in a michelin star restaurant but at least i'm on zagat rated which is as good as the michelin guide in north america. Trust me, the culianry path is all about learning all the time. I'm currently doing a wine sommeiler course now. You never stop learning..
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Originally posted by Darrenchoo:
advantages and disadvantages of being a chef? thanks (:
Sorry, i left that part out..
Well, advantages.. Sadly, i'm putting alot of thought into this.. Can't name alot but here's mine. I like putting a smile on people when i feed em. The rush is what i live for. Easier to get laid, thats in Canada not too much for Singapore. I love my chef jacket. Competitions. Glamour when you do good. Save money on clothes.
Disadvantages.. Long hours, Say goodbye to Christmas, CNY, NYE, etc etc.. Low wages. Smelling like crap at the end of the day. Getting barked at until you finally own your own restaurant. Lots of studying to do. Work hazard. Oily face. You lose your friends. Tend to drink and smoke.
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Originally posted by ben1406:
"to be a chef does not necessarily need a degree. experience is more important. "
That is true if you decide to work in Singapore or for a private owned restaurant. In Singapore, it is not important for you to get a degree or diploma, but it is still good to have one for the long run.
Like you said as i quote, "and cooks are earning only 1k plus a mth. and you can expect to work as a cook for quite some time say 3-4 years." My 1st job in Singapore upon getting my culinary degree, i was drawing out 1600 a month for a 3rd cook. Why ? Overseas studies. I don't want to mention the restaurant's name on a forum. 6 months into that job, it got up to 1800 before i left for a job in Canada.
Having a Culianry degree helps alot too when you decide to move aboard to work. I might not be in a michelin star restaurant but at least i'm on zagat rated which is as good as the michelin guide in north america. Trust me, the culianry path is all about learning all the time. I'm currently doing a wine sommeiler course now. You never stop learning..
i know of a cook who got 1700 starting pay when he started out no cert no overseas studies nothing on job training. and after 3 years he is getting 2800. -
Originally posted by bryanw:
i know of a cook who got 1700 starting pay when he started out no cert no overseas studies nothing on job training. and after 3 years he is getting 2800.
good for him.. but on the average how much does a cook get started with ? i'm talking about the norm here.. not someone who might know the gm or the chef that started him at 1700. and 2800 is really nothing.. for that kind of money, i'm happy i did my overseas studies and i'm working overseas.i would never pay no cook that much without exp. i'm not sure why you keep putting going to a culinary school down. i'm stating facts for the future for all cooks. in the near future, a culinary diploma or a degree will help alot. if you are contented with working in singapore for that kind of low cook's wage, good on you. i'm not, thats why i decided to do a culinary degree.
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Originally posted by bryanw:
to be a chef does not necessarily need a degree. experience is more important. disadvantages are long working hours. morning come in do mise-en-plus, dessert production etc. even if the restaurant operates on split shift chefs also still work till last kitchen order. weekends, Ph, all work. and most ppl start off as cooks not chefs. but dont know why some ppl like to call themselves chefs just cos they studied a culinary diploma or work in the kitchen.
Oh, just wanted to add.. not every culianry grad thinks he is a chef. it's just a grandma's tale. not from what i see in Canada at least. And going to school teaches you how to spell 'mis en place' properly.
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Originally posted by ben1406:
good for him.. but on the average how much does a cook get started with ? i'm talking about the norm here.. not someone who might know the gm or the chef that started him at 1700. and 2800 is really nothing.. for that kind of money, i'm happy i did my overseas studies and i'm working overseas.i would never pay no cook that much without exp. i'm not sure why you keep putting going to a culinary school down. i'm stating facts for the future for all cooks. in the near future, a culinary diploma or a degree will help alot. if you are contented with working in singapore for that kind of low cook's wage, good on you. i'm not, thats why i decided to do a culinary degree.
if you think i am a cook or chef, i am afraid not.
which statement of mine is putting down going to a culinary school. i am just saying experience is more important. "to be a chef does not necessarily need a degree" i did not say to be a chef absolutely does not need a degree. i suggest you brush up more on your english comprehension skills 1st. -
Originally posted by ben1406:
Oh, just wanted to add.. not every culianry grad thinks he is a chef. it's just a grandma's tale. not from what i see in Canada at least. And going to school teaches you how to spell 'mis en place' properly.
that is your point of perception. i know of ppl who passed out frm culinary school and say they r chefs but actually cooks. and this is a forum. use of language is casual. as long as it is understood does it make a difference? this is not a business proposal or corporate society when talking to clients. i know of grads from culinary schools who cant even tell me how does the degustation menu reflect the restaurant's cuisine or theme. so there.
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wow. very insightful knowledge from ben and bryan. many thanks (:
ben, u say u currently work in canada as a cook? are u singaporean? so how much is ur wage there? i dont have a HUGE passion for cooking as all other potential chefs do, neither do i have any experience. but cooking has proven to be therepeutic for me, and i do in fact love to cook for the people i love. i see it as an art, where each dish is a masterpiece in itself.
from what i see, i will be able to prepare masterpieces of art each time i cook? or is it just a misconception on my part? is the real world just long hours of being in the kitchen, all sweaty and oily, and having to rush out dishes that i cant be 100% satisfied with?
i aim to study in italy/france as i feel that the country itself is full of culture and the people really take their cuisine seriously (im not saying other countries do not, but i just really love the culture in france). do singaporeans get treated as second class citizens when we try out for restaurant jobs overseas?
also, bryan mentioned that its not all just about cooking, there's alot of management, planning and coordination to do in the kitchen at high speed. so can i say that what i learn on this job can be applied in other jobs as well? (just in case i wish to venture into, say, the hospitality and tourism management courses?)
since i have not truely been in the kitchen as a staff, do u suggest i try the course out here in sg before venturing overseas? ben, what were some of the difficulties u had to overcome when u first became a chef? were there any discrimination against boys or girls, or singaporean and non-singaporean? and can i have the list of canadian schools u would reccommend? thanks. btw, may i ask how is the lifestyle in canada? is it as laidback as australia? i may want to move there if my job and everything is successful.
thanks once again for ur replies.
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hi darren, i heard of top chefs eventually assuming roles of managers but for managers to be chefs quite difficult. cos chefs who become managers know how to explain the dishes on the menu and how the food is cooked and match the wine easily. gives guests confidence and with this confidence displayed guests are more inclined to spend more cos they can tell you know your product.
i know of an exec chef with psle who now heads a 4 star htl. another chef without much education work his way up at a 5 star hotel and accepted overseas posting to another branch of the hotel and upgraded himself along the way learn how 2 use the computer, learn how 2 speak proper english to communicate with guests. i personally know a 3rd chef who disliked studying after sec education decided to pursue his passion for cooking and work as a kitchen helper all the way up, won awards and is now an exec chef of a fine dining rest and offered profit sharing.
chefs take great pride in their work. not just taste but presentation. as such you can say in a way they consider their dishes masterpieces of art. nobody wants to eat something that looks visually unappealing. to survive long in this industry you must have patience and passion cos u will be working long hours and on holidays, weekends, away from your family. your gf must be understanding. a diploma in culinary skills would be just fine teach you more about food terms, cook simple dishes, cost control, menu planning etc. then perhaps you can join the industry and get more experience and when you reach a supervisory level perhaps go for your culinary degree?if you hhave a sweet tooth and like visually pleasing pieces of edible art why not try being a pastry chef?
whatever it is i wish you all the best in your career should you decide to pursue culinary. you might not see the fruits of your labour after 5 years or something but remember to hang in there and turn your passion into motivation to carry on to the end. i can say head chefs are quite highly paid more than mgrs, and chefs pay are neg.
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thats very comforting to know- that management not necessarily get paid more than chefs do. (: what im apprehensive about now is just the long working hours..do chefs have any life outside the kitchen at all? =x
anyway bryanw, can i pressume ur in the culinary industry? or do u get ur knowledge by simply talking to people/ reading?
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i just watched a cooking show on ch8..left out the part that chefs have to kill life-produce with their bare hands. =x do we get over that phobia during the course? or if one never likes killing stuff, they can never be accomplished chefs?
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Originally posted by Darrenchoo:
thats very comforting to know- that management not necessarily get paid more than chefs do. (: what im apprehensive about now is just the long working hours..do chefs have any life outside the kitchen at all? =x
anyway bryanw, can i pressume ur in the culinary industry? or do u get ur knowledge by simply talking to people/ reading?
when i talk about mgrs, i mean mid and junior managers. AM is junior mgmt. outlet mgr is mid mgmt. as such i can say that most head chefs of the rest are paid more than the outlet mgrs. do not confuse head chef with exec chef. that is 2 different league. however bear in mind the mgr is the one spearheading business operations, sustain existing business concepts and introducing new dining trends to maximise profitability not the chef. the chef is in the kitchen. the mgr is in charge of maximising profitability by motivating, encouraging, grooming staff to meet guests expectations and hitting sales targets. he is the one out there with most contact with all the guests and the guests are the ones spending $. if no sales how to pay wages? therefore some of these mgrs can be very highly paid, offered profit sharing and running all the company's rests as operations mgr.in event of bad/ poor business, 1st person to get the F is the mgr cos he is the one managing the place. like a representative. ppl dont see the chef cos he is in the kitchen. they see the mgr. no point a chef's cuisine so fancy customer dont appreciate/like or order got what use. it is the mgr who will know the dining preferences of the guests and recommend accordingly not necessarily specialities of the rest.
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Originally posted by bryanw:
if you think i am a cook or chef, i am afraid not. which statement of mine is putting down going to a culinary school. i am just saying experience is more important. "to be a chef does not necessarily need a degree" i did not say to be a chef absolutely does not need a degree. i suggest you brush up more on your english comprehension skills 1st. Yes experience is more important, that is the same in every industry. You have your own opinions and so do i. To me as a chef, i feel a culinary education is very important. As you said yourself, you are neither a cook or a chef. And again, Culinary standards in Singapore and Canada are different.
I'll end it here so we don't have to start debating on it again.
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ben, u say u currently work in canada as a cook? are u singaporean? so how much is ur wage there? i dont have a HUGE passion for cooking as all other potential chefs do, neither do i have any experience. but cooking has proven to be therepeutic for me, and i do in fact love to cook for the people i love. i see it as an art, where each dish is a masterpiece in itself.
Yes i'm working in Canada as a Sous Chef. I am Singaporean. I wouldn't want to talk about my wage on a forum but it's much much better that what most sous chef of a pvt owned restaurant will earn in Singapore.
To be a chef, you really need the passion to drive you through your career. If you don't love food or understand food, i would advice you not to come into the restaurant industry. Everyone can cook, do they cook well ? Will you be able to stand the heat and stress ? I have worked with Chefs here who are as bad as your warrent officer in NS. Like what bryanw said in one of his earlier post, it take a long time before you see the dough rolling in.
See, alot of people talk about food as art. Noodles spun into towers and designs on the plates with different coloured sauces do not equal to art. I see cooking more as a craft.
from what i see, i will be able to prepare masterpieces of art each time i cook? or is it just a misconception on my part? is the real world just long hours of being in the kitchen, all sweaty and oily, and having to rush out dishes that i cant be 100% satisfied with?
Learn the basics first before even trying to make masterpieces. You have to understand food. I still study about food alot. I'm currently enrolled in a sommelier school and taking my exam to get a sommelier diploma. Next course will be for molecular gastronomy.
Hours in a kitchen varies on where you work. As a chef, you have alot of different paths to go into. You can be a pastry chef, baker, head chef of a restaurant, exec chef of a hotel, corporate chef of a chain restaurant, catering chef, pvt chef.. etc etc. Most kitchen shifts are about 8 hours, some kitchens you work split shifts. My place, i work 14 hours each day on the weekends.
i aim to study in italy/france as i feel that the country itself is full of culture and the people really take their cuisine seriously (im not saying other countries do not, but i just really love the culture in france). do singaporeans get treated as second class citizens when we try out for restaurant jobs overseas?
To study in France you will have to speak french for a year before you can enroll in their schools. Italy has good chef schools in the south. Yes it's full of culture in europe, but it's easier if you speak the language. I have a friend that had to take french classes during his NS just to enroll in institute paul bocuse.
In the kitchen, most cooks are second class citizens. Why ? Because cooks come from all over the globe. The best cooks are always the mexicans !
also, bryan mentioned that its not all just about cooking, there's alot of management, planning and coordination to do in the kitchen at high speed. so can i say that what i learn on this job can be applied in other jobs as well? (just in case i wish to venture into, say, the hospitality and tourism management courses?)
Cooking is the easiest part really. Putting the flavours, banging food out the same at all times and coordination are the hard part. What bryanw said is true. It comes to you the longer you work in a kitchen. Than again, each chef is different when it comes to running his kitchen. Yes, what you learn in the kitchen like handling the stress and pressure can be applied to other jobs. No one takes as much beating as a Cook really.
since i have not truely been in the kitchen as a staff, do u suggest i try the course out here in sg before venturing overseas? ben, what were some of the difficulties u had to overcome when u first became a chef? were there any discrimination against boys or girls, or singaporean and non-singaporean? and can i have the list of canadian schools u would reccommend? thanks. btw, may i ask how is the lifestyle in canada? is it as laidback as australia? i may want to move there if my job and everything is successful.
I would suggest to work part time in a small restaurant first to see whether you like it. My cousin always wanted to become a chef, but as soon as he got a part time job in a kitchen he quit after 2 weeks. Now he's making big money in real estate.
I'm not a chef yet, sous chef is my position now. Difficulties ? Tons ! Well, i aced my culinary program. I was the top 3 student chef in my year. When i got my 1st job, my ego was huge thinking i knew it all. NO ! That wasn't the case. You work hard to bulid a name for yourself as a chef. I won a bronze medal for a culinary competition 2 years ago in Canada. You never stop buliding your name.
Discriminations ? Hmmm... I would never work for a female chef. There are great female chefs but i cannot stand working for one. Thats just me. Discriminations towards Singaporeans ? Err.. non.. Not too many of us around to get discriminated. Kitchen talk is not for the light hearted too.. It's like watching the show scarface..
Canada is a great country. I love it here.. The food industry here is huge. I'll send you a list of school to you. If you want to find out more about canada, come to the singaporeans overseas forum here on sgforums !
thanks once again for ur replies.
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Originally posted by Darrenchoo:
thats very comforting to know- that management not necessarily get paid more than chefs do. (: what im apprehensive about now is just the long working hours..do chefs have any life outside the kitchen at all? =x
anyway bryanw, can i pressume ur in the culinary industry? or do u get ur knowledge by simply talking to people/ reading?
Front of the house and the back of the house's pay structure is very different. Here in North america, servers make alot more than cooks. My girlfriend's tip out on a weekend is about 300++ a night. So in 2 days on a weekend she makes about 550 - 600 easily. On top of that she still gets her hourly wage.Chefs do have life. It's up to you what you want your "life" to be. I do engage in paintballing and go karting once a month. Chefs have more of a night life than a day one.
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Originally posted by Darrenchoo:
i just watched a cooking show on ch8..left out the part that chefs have to kill life-produce with their bare hands. =x do we get over that phobia during the course? or if one never likes killing stuff, they can never be accomplished chefs?
That again depends on your restaurant. What level your restaurant is, most restaurants don't really kill anything these days unless it's seafood. You won't see a chef really pumping his shot gun and shooting down ducks. In Europe i'm sure some do. Even in Quebec in Canada, there are chefs i've read about getting life animals.I kill lobsters daily.. I wouldn't mind a lamb if i could get one.
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i am more inclined to agreed with Ben1406. i mean these days if you want to work for well establishment such as Wolfgang or some 5 star hotel in Vegas. unless you have some serious experience to back you up or else in any career you need a start.
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
i am more inclined to agreed with Ben1406. i mean these days if you want to work for well establishment such as Wolfgang or some 5 star hotel in Vegas. unless you have some serious experience to back you up or else in any career you need a start.
that is very true ! and that is what i have been trying to say.. culinary in singapore is on a whole different level..
Working in Singapore without a diploma / degree sure ! why not ? They only got shatec and TP that offers a dip in culinary. In europe and north america, culinary schools are everywhere, competition is on a very high level here.
In the next few years, i am very sure being an employer / chef myself, 5 stars or cooperate restaurants will only hire diploma holders and above. Same for every industry..