Some queries
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Firstly, yes I did mention that lust and masturbation is only indirectly linked. I never said they are ONE thing.
Someone has used tat phrase on me too before.
I hope u realise tat thinking of lust and masturbation r again 2 different items. If u think tat we should stop people from lusting, it is impossible. When men see a women wears a sexy outfit, they will mentally think of lust even though they do not masturbate. When a guy see a beautiful girl, he will still think of the same thing too. How to prevent it ? Cover the women from head to toes or making men blind ? Do u think just by banning masturbation u do not commit this sin ? Sorry man, this sin has further impact than u think. Masturbation is just a subset of it. When men r having wet dreams, they too think of lust. How to prevent tat ? [b]If u want to ban masturbation just because of the above statement, then it should be fair to force women to wear clothes tat only exposes their eyes too or make men blind. Will tat be rational ?
Wat has the thought of lust or desire for flesh wrong in anything ? Everyone thinks of "lust" since all men and women r built tis way. I believe all men, even the pope think lustfully at some point in time. Wat harm has it done ? If there is no lust in the world, do u think people will want to get marry or have kids ?
If u want to blame, blame the maker. He create lust so that relationship between men and women becomes more interesting. Yet u guys want to clamp it down and make people do the impossible. [/b]
Secondly, I agree that LUST is ever present. I too succumb to LUST as a christian.
Thirdly, the question from greengoblin was that why masturbation is such an issue and my answer was that in order to masturbate, lust is present and lust to God is a sin. If you can masturbate without having any lust and without any lustful images in ur mind, then well go ahead.
Fourthly, it was God who says it is a sin to lust not me. However, He did say the moment you sin, He will strike me down or else I would have been struck down a few times every day. yes I lust every day but every day I learn more and more not to. Christians never become sinless but they learn to sin less and less.
Fifthly, No one wants to ban masturbation. yes without masturbation, lust is still present, but the question is about masturbation isnt it? And masturbation is most likely a result of lust. I am just trying to say that to get to masturbation, you likely would have to go thru the process of lusting. It is not wrong to look at pretty girls. It is not wrong to admire God's creation. But to God, if we go on and continue to 'strip' them in our mind then well to God, it is a sin but again, I say, God is not seeking an opportunity to ZAP us from heaven.
Lastly, as I said, christians dun become sinless. So even in masturbation, I can say that at least for single guys, it is almost impossible to NOT MASTURBATE EVER IN THEIR WHOLE LIFE again. Bt it is possible to masturbate lesser and lesser. Anyway, I believe it is known to all of us that doctors advise masturbation to be kept in control as it may occupy our whole time and being and may result you to have a selfish sex life in future. They do not advise that you must totally stop masturbating but not to let it occupy your whole time and being. -
Well bro, its hard to understand love just as we believe that love compelled Jesus to die for us. How could you understand that? The way love is felt is different in every individual. Some feels that God loves them because of the way dies for them. I personally feels God's love because He gave me the freedom to be who I really am. So, until they day you really love a person, then you will know. If you try to get an explanation of how you know you love a person, i really dun noe.Originally posted by greengoblin:I believe most of those so called unequally yoked people will be snared by these two verses in their seeming contradiction
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.
For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?
And what communion has light with darkness?
II Corinthians 6:14
and
And a woman who has a husband who does not believe,
if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him.
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife,
and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband;
otherwise your children will be unclean,
but now they are holy.
I Corinthians 7:13-1
How to you come to a common position on these. And how do a person knows if he or she loves a person? Of course every Christian will desire to have a Christian spouse...but what if that is not possible i.e... he doesn't have much Christian friends to begin with and his viewpoints of life and prioirites are different? That can be abit hard. What I do not like about those so called staunch Christians is they use II Corinthians 6:14 to condemn a person who is in a relationship with a non believer. Love in the first place is not so simple. Can I just leave a person I love just because of that? I don't think so.
Gas... perhaps my interpretation of the bible is a little different from yours. Mine is a cause and effect thingy. If you do not do A then B will happen to you. This could be a wrong interpretation...but...I don't know.... I do not know what it is to love anymore...I don't even know who I am so how can I love another?
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To understand the scriptures, you must understand the person who inspires it, God himself. I once have many questions about the bible. But I came to understand is that beyond those words that are written, the person, God, who inspires it, is more crucial than anything else.
If God is love, would He be unloving in any circumstances? If God is all knowing, would He lose control in any situation? So, if God is freedom, would He not give us a choice?
My brother, God gives us a choice for everything. But we have to understans that in everything we do, there is either a benefit to us or consequence to bear. And God is just pointing out the possibilities to us. It is just like my mother telling me the possible consequences of skipping school when I was in primary school and that is I might fail my exams. Was that a threat? I dun think it is but it is more a concern mother telling her child of what might happen. it is out of love rather than viciousness. God is not in heaven right now, waiting for you to make a mistake and zap you but He, as a loving Father, has given us all the instructions as a loving Father should and it is up to us to listen or not.
If you listen all may be fine but if you do not, just remember that a broken spirit and a contrite heart, He will not despise. -
As I said, masturbation is an issue because it usually involves lust. If a person can masturbate without involving lust, I dun think there is an issue at all.Originally posted by greengoblin:With regards to masturbation then, how should a Christian reconcile to it such that it will not dampen his faith in God.
I understand there are individuals who have problems in natural semen emission and they rely on masturbation to relieve their tension. How then should a Christian come to terms with this?
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Then God shall judge them when they come face to face with Him. Not all who calls Him 'LORD LORD' shall enter the kingdom of heaven.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I know. There r also some people who r worse, they refuse to treat non-believers as close friends. In fact maybe some don't even treat non-believers as friends.
If they display such behaviours, I am truly sorry for them because they have not realise the full extent of God's love. When God came, He said 'I came to serve and not to be served." That explains His purpose, to be a servant. A servant does not practice elitism and is humble and accepting. Thus, any one who thinks they are better than anyone else shall be last. -
Hohoho....hmmm, that is an interesting questionOriginally posted by Icemoon:How about when females masturbate?
Well I of course do not know why a female masturbate as well as I know why guys masturbate.
If it involves lust, then of cos the verse applies to both guys and girls -
hmmm....clearing old stock? hhaaOriginally posted by gasband:As I said, masturbation is an issue because it usually involves lust. If a person can masturbate without involving lust, I dun think there is an issue at all. -
making way for newOriginally posted by NeonTetra:hmmm....clearing old stock? hhaa
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Firstly, yes I did mention that lust and masturbation is only indirectly linked. I never said they are ONE thing.
Firstly, u give a statement condening lusting for an answer to banning masturbation. And u really didn't explicitly say there r not one item nor say they r indirectly linked.Secondly, I agree that LUST is ever present. I too succumb to LUST as a christian.
Then don't u find it wierd for tat someone to suggest we do something tat can never be achieved ? It is the same as breathing and eating. Why ban it ? As I said before, since everyone lust, why make it become a sin ? If tat is the case the biggest sinner is god since they force us to be so.Thirdly, the question from greengoblin was that why masturbation is such an issue and my answer was that in order to masturbate, lust is present and lust to God is a sin. If you can masturbate without having any lust and without any lustful images in ur mind, then well go ahead.
The thing is, christian ban masturbation just because they occur the sin of lust. My question is, why not force women to cover themselves up except their eyes in order not to commit the sin of lust ? I am pretty sure if we cover up the girls, less "lust" sin will be committed. It will even be more effective than banning masturbation. Why only ban masturbation ?Fourthly, it was God who says it is a sin to lust not me. However, He did say the moment you sin, He will strike me down or else I would have been struck down a few times every day. yes I lust every day but every day I learn more and more not to. Christians never become sinless but they learn to sin less and less.
Jesus says it is a sin to have lustful thoughts. However it is Human tat interpretes tis statement to banning masturbation. Again the scripture never explicitly say masturbation is disallow. They however do explicit says tat women who r not virgins when they r married have to be stoned to death. Why r u not following tis phrase of the scripture then ?Fifthly, No one wants to ban masturbation. yes without masturbation, lust is still present, but the question is about masturbation isnt it? And masturbation is most likely a result of lust. I am just trying to say that to get to masturbation, you likely would have to go thru the process of lusting. It is not wrong to look at pretty girls. It is not wrong to admire God's creation. But to God, if we go on and continue to 'strip' them in our mind then well to God, it is a sin but again, I say, God is not seeking an opportunity to ZAP us from heaven.
The question is about masturbation, but u give me an answer which talk about lust. As said, masturbation is a result of lust. However lust may also have developed due to exposing women appearence to men. Christian try to stop lust by banning masturbation. Why not stop lusting by forcing women to wear clothings that cover everything as well ? Why the double standard ?
If u care to notice, god had placed eve as naked in the garden of eve. God have wanted men and women to go around naked. Why can't we picture them naked mentally ? Wat harm it cause ? I ask again, wat harm does it cause ?Lastly, as I said, christians dun become sinless. So even in masturbation, I can say that at least for single guys, it is almost impossible to NOT MASTURBATE EVER IN THEIR WHOLE LIFE again. Bt it is possible to masturbate lesser and lesser. Anyway, I believe it is known to all of us that doctors advise masturbation to be kept in control as it may occupy our whole time and being and may result you to have a selfish sex life in future. They do not advise that you must totally stop masturbating but not to let it occupy your whole time and being.
Wat is the rationale for masturbating lesser and lesser ? Have u ever think about it, wat harm does it cause. The girl aren't going to get affected or really care wat u r doing. Why stop yourself from a normal health progression ?
Doctors has been telling people tat masturbation is good psychologically and physically. The best part is no one is gonna get hurt and it relieves sexual pressure. For your examples of masturbation gone bad, it is for people who r addicted to them. Unless u r a person who masturbate every hour, then u r not going to suffer the stated problems. Why put in the problem of addicts in this discussion ? Religion fanatic certainly have more serious problems than a masturbation addict. -
To understand the scriptures, you must understand the person who inspires it, God himself. I once have many questions about the bible. But I came to understand is that beyond those words that are written, the person, God, who inspires it, is more crucial than anything else.
Beyond those words ? So the scriptures shouldn't be depended on ? Some peopel say tat priest should not be depended on either, even though somebody else say there will be some "holy spirit" guiding them. So in the end wat do u depend on ? God got lots of love for us ? Give me an example of the thing he had do tat had display his love. He killed people without reason and warnings. He started wars just for himself. He nearly killed off the whole species of all living things just because he want to press a reset button in controlling the world (noah ark). He started the idea of evil, death dieseases just because someone don't obey him. Why do u think god has love ? U do because the priest tell u so. In the end it is all human.If God is love, would He be unloving in any circumstances? If God is all knowing, would He lose control in any situation? So, if God is freedom, would He not give us a choice?
How wrong can tat be... Does mass murdering a sign tat display love ? God is all knowing ? Then how come he never predict adam will eat the apple eventually ? He knew about it and purposely let him eat it so he can have a reason to punish men ? God is freedom ? if he represents freedom, then why force us to pray to him, to believe in him ? Why set all the different priviledges believers will receive and condemn non believers to hell ? Is tat a choice ?My brother, God gives us a choice for everything. But we have to understans that in everything we do, there is either a benefit to us or consequence to bear. And God is just pointing out the possibilities to us. It is just like my mother telling me the possible consequences of skipping school when I was in primary school and that is I might fail my exams. Was that a threat? I dun think it is but it is more a concern mother telling her child of what might happen. it is out of love rather than viciousness. God is not in heaven right now, waiting for you to make a mistake and zap you but He, as a loving Father, has given us all the instructions as a loving Father should and it is up to us to listen or not.
I think tat is pretty different from actual situation. A person wants u to start to worship him, to pray to him, to sing praises of him. If u do, u get to go to his house for a party. Otherwise he will ask his accomplice to torture u at a corner. Is tat a threat ? Yes it is ! In fact there is even an element of bribery ! Not zapping u ? Onan is zapped isn't it ? Job's family is zapped too. Every chapter u will see how god zapped people, sometime using a bear, sometime using dieseases etc. In fact he zapped more people than the rest of human race combined.If they display such behaviours, I am truly sorry for them because they have not realise the full extent of God's love. When God came, He said 'I came to serve and not to be served." That explains His purpose, to be a servant. A servant does not practice elitism and is humble and accepting. Thus, any one who thinks they are better than anyone else shall be last.
He surely say my name is lord and sometimes u shall obey the commands of the lord. Does tat sounds like a servant to u ? No ! He treats u worse than a servant ! He treats u as a slave tat can be killed if he wants to ! -
ok, put it simply..
if one is a believer and doer of his faith, does he feel guilty after masturbating. will this habit of masturbating restrain him from having a healthy relationship with God. will he feel restrain from talk and listening to God? if it does, then he/she should stop it.. it applies to all habits that prevents a sincere and truthful relationship with God..
if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5-29-30
sin is when your relationship with God is affected. if that relationship is affected by some habit, stop it.Originally posted by greengoblin:This is a common problem that I find which also frustrates new born Christians...for one...do they have the capacity even to think of such questions? If I talk about masturbation...what I need is solid words from the Bible that Masturbation is wrong and that's it... like in the 10 commandments Thou Shalt not Kill or Thou Shalt not Covet Thy Neighbour's wife. Answering in the form of rhetorical questions does not help the new born at all. What they need is guidance. -
I think New Testament is more forgiving. God gives us a new convenant thru his Son. The old ones (laws) are overidded by the second convenant. Mebbe u can try reading up NT?Originally posted by stupidissmart:He surely say my name is lord and sometimes u shall obey the commands of the lord. Does tat sounds like a servant to u ? No ! He treats u worse than a servant ! He treats u as a slave tat can be killed if he wants to ! -
if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5-29-30
In the case of masturbation, christian should cut off their little brothers to prevent themselves from committing sin. Maybe they should gorge out their eyes too to prevent them from seeing girls. -
I think New Testament is more forgiving. God gives us a new convenant thru his Son. The old ones (laws) are overidded by the second convenant. Mebbe u can try reading up NT?
Tat is pretty wierd. i thought someone say bible is god inspired ? I thought god is all knowing ? So they need version 2 and version 3 to correct the errors on version 1 ? If u r a christians, u do not choose which scripture to depend on. U have to accept all of them. -
If u read up NT closely, u would know that Jesus come to us and thru him we had the second covenant. Rememeber the woman who was about to be stoned to death? Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".Originally posted by stupidissmart:Tat is pretty wierd. i thought someone say bible is god inspired ? I thought god is all knowing ? So they need version 2 and version 3 to correct the errors on version 1 ? If u r a christians, u do not choose which scripture to depend on. U have to accept all of them.
The women was saved then. She would have died under the old laws (old testament).
If you think of what Jesus did in contrast with the old laws, isn't he more forgiving and flexible?
I am not saying the old laws are bad. In fact, by knowing the old laws, wouldn't u appreciate what Jesus had preached in NT?
I used to think of our GOD as a vengeful God. Frankly, reading the old testament often send shivers done my spine. But the NT really gave me a different perception.
Under the old laws, one commandment u broke is as good as breaking all the other commandments. You will still go hell even if u can keep nine commandments. Isn't this harsh? But when Jesus comes, he did away with these laws and by his blood we are all saved. We do not deserved all these, and yet GOD lets his Son die for us so that we will be saved. Isn't he a good GOD? -
if you read properly, it's just telling the importance of dealing with sin.. even with extreme measures..
if you think cutting it off or gorging your eyes out solves the problem.. please do so.. but i think the problem is much more than that..Originally posted by stupidissmart:In the case of masturbation, christian should cut off their little brothers to prevent themselves from committing sin. Maybe they should gorge out their eyes too to prevent them from seeing girls. -
If you are struggling with sexual sins, praying more often will help you.
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Good to who?Originally posted by worried99:I used to think of our GOD as a vengeful God. Frankly, reading the old testament often send shivers done my spine. But the NT really gave me a different perception ... We do not deserved all these, and yet GOD lets his Son die for us so that we will be saved. Isn't he a good GOD?
You can't ignore the question of God's treatment of people in the OT. If the OT sends "shivers down your spine", then isn't God a vengeful God?
Do you think the generations between Moses and Jesus are the guinea pigs? I hear people saying that "God gave them the Law to show their ..." (sorry can't remember the exact phrase). -
That's a mistake. Jesus said He came not to replace, but to fulfill the Law?Originally posted by worried99:I think New Testament is more forgiving. God gives us a new convenant thru his Son. The old ones (laws) are overidded by the second convenant. Mebbe u can try reading up NT?
And it is important to differentiate laws or commandments binding only to the Jews and others binding to everyone. When you say overidden, more likely they're not binding to gentiles, like the Jewish dietary and circumcision laws.
We have the benefit of hindsight. That's why we can happily say God gives us new covenant. But what about the generations between Moses and Jesus?
Is the OT clear on the fact that there is going to be a new covenant? Everywhere you read, you have the impression that the laws/commandments in the OT are eternal.
Of course this brings us to my previous question. Are these people guinea pigs? -
I told u my perspective changed when I read the NT. He is no longer a vengeful GOD.Originally posted by Icemoon:Good to who?
You can't ignore the question of God's treatment of people in the OT. If the OT sends "shivers down your spine", then isn't God a vengeful God?
Do you think the generations between Moses and Jesus are the guinea pigs? I hear people saying that "God gave them the Law to show their ..." (sorry can't remember the exact phrase).
I do not know whether they are the guinea pigs or not. If I am not wrong, God gave his pple the laws becoz they asked for it (also forgotten where I read in the bible). But men of coz could not keep those laws. That's why there is a need for his Son to establish a 2nd convenant with him on behalf of all of us who were sinners. -
I think I have also read in the bible abt Jesus came not to replace, but to fulfill the law. But bear in mind, the Son of GOD also knew he has to die from the start, and his death was to complete what is to be given undeservely (grace) to us, the sinners. If Jesus really come to 'fulfill' (enforce) the laws, he would not have saved the woman's life from stoning would he? If he really come to 'fulfill' the laws, he would not have criticized the Pharisees who were self-righteous and thought they knew everything abt the laws.Originally posted by Icemoon:That's a mistake. Jesus said He came not to replace, but to fulfill the Law?
And it is important to differentiate laws or commandments binding only to the Jews and others binding to everyone. When you say overidden, more likely they're not binding to gentiles, like the Jewish dietary and circumcision laws.
We have the benefit of hindsight. That's why we can happily say God gives us new covenant. But what about the generations between Moses and Jesus?
Is the OT clear on the fact that there is going to be a new covenant? Everywhere you read, you have the impression that the laws/commandments in the OT are eternal.
Of course this brings us to my previous question. Are these people guinea pigs?
Gentiles and Jews alike, the bible says those who believed in the Lord would be saved. Is there really a need to segregate between Jews and Gentiles? I have read a bible commentary which says that some early christians (Jews) tried to enforce Jewish customs on Gentiles and they were wrong in doing that. The bible also says whether u are circumcized or not, it is not as important as believing in the lord.
It is said in the bible that Jesus came to established a new convenant in place of the first (laws) (sorry I have forgotten which verse). In the OT, The prophet Isiah prophesized abt the Messiah coming to bear man's sins. It was also mentioned that he would be beaten for our transgressions.
I think u do have some bible knowledge, and in fact better than me who has just began to start reading the bible seriously. I believed if u read more closely, it is clear that Jesus came to establish a new convenant for man with his father so that all of us can be saved. If the Lord has not established the new convenant, none of us could get saved as it is impossible for us to keep all the commandments.
There is also another good discussion board: stephentong.org
where u can participate in such discussions (I am not affiliated to them, just find that the person-charge Elder Yong would be in a better position to answer ur questions) -
quoted from Jeremiah chapter 31: "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
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“By calling this covenant `new,' he has made the first one obsolete.... He sets aside the first to establish the second” (Heb. 8:13; 10:9).
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Old Covenant:
Placed upon stone
Based on the law
Must be taught
Legal relationship with GOD
New Covenant:
Placed upon people's heart
Based on desire to love and serve God
known by all
Personal relationship with GOD
(taken from life application bible KJV - Old and new convenants compared) -
http://christianteens.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=christianteens&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tftrust.u-net.com%2Ftestimony14.html
Good link
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if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5-29-30
if you read properly, it's just telling the importance of dealing with sin.. even with extreme measures..
Okie, I read again... strange... literally reading the text, u can still come to the conclusion tat if your little brother has commit a sin, u have to cut it off. Tis is so as to prevent your whole body to be cast in hell and suffer. It says sin is so unforgivable tat u have to main yourself to be forgiven.
if you think cutting it off or gorging your eyes out solves the problem.. please do so.. but i think the problem is much more than that..
Of course I do not believe cutting off a part of the body can help u in anything except causing more pain to society. However did I say tat statement ? It is jesus himself isn't it ? I am interpreting the statement.