Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Not disputing that the Lord is our Shepherd but in this parable, how did sheeps auto become christians or believers?
too long to quote, read John 10.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:UNKNOWING is when you have done to one of your brothers or sisters, you have done it to me OR meaning if you have shown love to one of your brothers and sisters, you have shown love to me.
Isn't it clear that Jesus is telling us that those are the things we are to do? Isn't doing those an act of loving our neigbhour?
If you says UNKNOWING, are you saying those goats are those who UNKNOWING did not do all those things?
And if they did not do UNKNOWING, why they did not go heaven leh?
Or is Jesus now telling us point blank that this is what we must do - so no more UNKOWING EXCUSES ?
They didn't go to heaven because they are goats, ha ha...
... but this one is going around in circles. I am not trying to convince you to believe anything beyond what you believe, I jus want you to know that others aren't going to change their stance either.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Your explanation did not gel with that parable.....why not believer and non-believer?
So now going to heaven is not salvation. Salvation means can go to hell too? So Jesus says eternal life in hell? Where is the kingdom of God?
Since when that I said must be sinless and blameless 24/7? What has that got to do with salvation and deeds ?
Deeds is simply to show love and compassion as per this parable.
When did I say that salvation means can go to hell, please have the courtesy of not putting words in my mouth. I said, SALVATION IS NOT ABOUT GOING TO HEAVEN. Salvation is about accepting Christ - going to heaven is a byproduct of salvation. My English I think is good enough right.
You have to be sinless and blameless 24/7 otherwise when you die, you will not go to heaven because the sins that you have will will prevent you from entering heaven. Of course Catholics have the middle ground of purgatory, which protestants do not accept.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Yes, very funny if we twist the parable to suite our cause by this and that when it is clear what the parable is all about.
you keep saying that the parable is CLEAR.... which means to say that you think you are absolutely right.... so then there is really nothing to discuss right? Because you are right and I am wrong....
Originally posted by malcom:It not assume, it is hinted very obvious already, it is very simple to understand. If Jesus mean it is unbeliever, He would say something like "If you don't believe me , away from me evildoers".
What Jesus trying to tell us is, we may know Him and do all those things in His name, but if we don't do the will of my Father, I don't know you, go away.
You just need open your mind and use simple reasoning, don't let your imagination run wild :)
Ok, if you want to take the parables and the sermon of the mount literally, so be it.
One definition of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats....
http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html
obviously, our Catholics brethens will not agree with it.... but I don't really care.
Originally posted by despondent:malcolm, r u one of those catholics who believe tat wadever has been taught to u scripturally is inerrant n perfect??? if tats where u r coming from, then i dun tink the protestants inside here will be willing to listen…u see, protestants believe tat no church is perfect n no pastor, pope or priest can claim to have the 100% perfect doctrine of the entire bible…tats y sometimes we dun like to discuss doctrinal stuffs wif catholics cos they keep tinking onli they r rite…
Unless the scripture come directly from God then it is perfect, but it is written by human divinely inspired. But certain important things which sometime emphasize in other parts, should be considered correct. If we keep saying this and that is 'error', or 'cannot be used', or 'maybe error' then why would we use bible as the source of our faith?
The truth in bible most of the time can be revealed by human reasoning, put pieces together to understand the overall picture.
Originally posted by malcom:Unless the scripture come directly from God then it is perfect, but it is written by human divinely inspired. But certain important things which sometime emphasize in other parts, should be considered correct. If we keep saying this and that is 'error', or 'cannot be used', or 'maybe error' then why would we use bible as the source of our faith?
The truth in bible most of the time can be revealed by human reasoning, put pieces together to understand the overall picture.
So in your opinion, is scripture perfect or divinely inspired?
so far, I don't think the issue is whether this or that is "error", but more on whether the context of any given verse is read correctly or not.
if it is agreed in Christendom that parables are parables, but an individual wishes to take a more literal approach, it is his prerogative to do so. Nonetheless it is really quite foolish to go along that line.
Originally posted by ChiBet:I converted to Christianity about 3 years ago but my friends in the church were freaking me out by
1 - telling me to only make friends with other christians of my church and to stay away from my non christian friends
2 - all conversations with this bunch of people involves chrisianity and nothing else. I mean its normal to talk about christianity within a christian group but to have months and months of conversations only about christianity/church activity is not normal. Some were my coursemates and they never spoke to me about anything else except christianity/church matters - even when we were at school
3 - once they found out I listen to the radio, their response was why I listen to worldly songs??? they expect christians to only listen to christians songs???
4 - they keep asking me to do 'surveys' and collect alot of my personal data then one day they told me that GOD had told them his plan for me and proceed to tell me of their/"HIS" plan for my life. they actually plan out my whole life???
Is this normal or had I join a cult?
My church is somewhere along Orchard Road. Does anyone have any similar experience?
1.I slap you...
2.I slap harder...
3.I punch you...
4.Whack you...wake up la bro
Originally posted by Chin Eng:too long to quote, read John 10.
They didn't go to heaven because they are goats, ha ha...
... but this one is going around in circles. I am not trying to convince you to believe anything beyond what you believe, I jus want you to know that others aren't going to change their stance either.
When did I say that salvation means can go to hell, please have the courtesy of not putting words in my mouth. I said, SALVATION IS NOT ABOUT GOING TO HEAVEN. Salvation is about accepting Christ - going to heaven is a byproduct of salvation. My English I think is good enough right.
You have to be sinless and blameless 24/7 otherwise when you die, you will not go to heaven because the sins that you have will will prevent you from entering heaven. Of course Catholics have the middle ground of purgatory, which protestants do not accept.
you keep saying that the parable is CLEAR.... which means to say that you think you are absolutely right.... so then there is really nothing to discuss right? Because you are right and I am wrong....
Ok, if you want to take the parables and the sermon of the mount literally, so be it.
You are right, there is nothing to discuss since the goal posts keep shifting causing running around in circles.
I said it is clear because Jesus spelt out how he classify the groups into sheeps and goats. Based on their deeds and it is there.
You dispute that by saying christians auto sheep and goats are non-christians. Then you says this parable is to show christians who do good deed unknowingly....could be but....
If goats are non-christians, why do they bother to ask Jesus why they are in the group of goats? Obviously, there are christians who end up there and wonder why......perhaps not....
If you insist that goats are non-christians, does that means Jesus is saying that non-christians cannot do good deed? And only Christians can do good deeds but perhaps unknowingly? Do you believe that? You did not explain......
Therefore, I said your explanation do not gel with the entire parable. The other half need to be explained.
Is this a teaching by Jesus ?
Is Jesus not reaching out to everybody regardless of their race or social status? Is he converting them by doing deeds? Healing them, forgiving them for their sins, giving them a second chance in life (sign of love) ?
Is it so difficult to read and accept what Jesus said? Is this parable not about Jesus teaching us to love our neigbhours?
Then now salvation also need to be debated and going to heaven becomes a by-product. Will not go on debating....
You said we need to be sinless and blameless 24/7 before we die in order to go heaven. Then who can go ? We are all sinners - don't agree again? Or do you subscribe to once saved always saved?
Purgatory has nothing to do in this dicussion. I said earlier, confessions is what we are looking at.
A short note for dumbdumb, Catholic Churches believes in living a Christian life (in our tecahings means - love your God and love your neighbour) first. Only then you can talk about evangelisation by showing people that Jesus has made a difference in your life by making you a better person. This is also reason why the Catholic faith are running non-profit nursing homes, hospices, orphanges etc....Rather than going on the streets to talk and talk.....
Look at the other thread "No offence to christians" and you will see what I mean when I says some christians are doing more harm than good with their evangelisation.
Not that we are right, but our approach is different - that's all.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:So in your opinion, is scripture perfect or divinely inspired?
so far, I don't think the issue is whether this or that is "error", but more on whether the context of any given verse is read correctly or not.
if it is agreed in Christendom that parables are parables, but an individual wishes to take a more literal approach, it is his prerogative to do so. Nonetheless it is really quite foolish to go along that line.
Parable is about telling a story that carries a message. That is why different messages is received by different people. The reason for discussion is to put these different messages and then use our reasoning to see which make better sense in terms of the teaching by Jesus.
It is quite foolish to take it literally but it is even more foolish not to try and make sense out of the mesasge behind it.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Parable is about telling a story that carries a message. That is why different messages is received by different people. The reason for discussion is to put these different messages and then use our reasoning to see which make better sense in terms of the teaching by Jesus.
It is quite foolish to take it literally but it is even more foolish not to try and make sense out of the mesasge behind it.
so are you also saying that malcom is quite foolish....
whether I am making sense out of it or not, may I invite to go the the link that I posted a couple of points above, but let me post it one more time:
http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html
but as I'd said, it does not matter to me whether you agree with the link or not.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:You said we need to be sinless and blameless 24/7 before we die in order to go heaven. Then who can go ? We are all sinners - don't agree again? Or do you subscribe to once saved always saved?
you mean it took you so long to figure that out?
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Not that we are right, but our approach is different - that's all.
I am glad you are using the word "approach". At least it is not doctrine or theology.
All along I have also never said I am right... I don't even dare to say statements like "scripture is very clear about it".... but you have always maintained that stand, sigh!
Originally posted by Chin Eng:so are you also saying that malcom is quite foolish....
whether I am making sense out of it or not, may I invite to go the the link that I posted a couple of points above, but let me post it one more time:
http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html
but as I'd said, it does not matter to me whether you agree with the link or not.
No, just no interest to go on as you said, there is nothing to discuss....
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:No, just no interest to go on as you said, there is nothing to discuss....
well. the jews said Jesus was wrong too. ah well
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Do you need to feel guilty that you did not reach out to each and everyone? I don't think so because it is impossible.
You keep saying that Catholic do not reach out but then how come we still survive and having baptsim year after year? Where did they come from? Reject of your preaching?
I think Malcom tried to explained before. The Catholic Churches pray every week for the sick and for those who departed. Not only when someone dear pass away. The prayers are meant for everybody. And in stituation like yours, you don't even feel like saying a prayer for your friend? If you think she is in heaven, why not also say a prayer of thanks to our Lord? Pls do not think I am implying that you friend is not in heaven - I don't as I have already explained.
If someone can benefit from the Gospel, why don't they benefit it when they are alive? That's a good question but we always have to know that not everyone will be converted and that's a fact. There is so only so much that we can do and we do our best.
Isn't our God great, loving and unforgiving that even non-believers now can stand a chance to go to heaven?
Being christian is an honour and we should live our life as much as possible they way Jesus wants us to. That is to love our God with everything and also to love our neighbour. The last judgement parable is also to re-inforce the love our neighbour part.
Is that so difficult a task that we cannot do? Why wait when all of us can start take the first step.
lol. you build nicer tombs for the dead than houses for the living, that's what i see.
And the truth is this. If it's not because of a classmate who shared with me and bothered to ask me to church. 50 years from now, Me and my family will need prayers for the dead from you folks too. Oops, but guess what? It's too late, isn't it? =)
Originally posted by Chin Eng:One definition of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats....
http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html
obviously, our Catholics brethens will not agree with it.... but I don't really care.
come to think about it. i loathe them so much, i don't think i care what they think. i can't understand how they can stand one side and watch a house go down in flame, with kids inside, and do nothing,
and then watch some other people risk their lives to rescue them, then later tell those who risked their lives that the way they saved the kids are wrong.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:come to think about it. i loathe them so much, i don't think i care what they think. i can't understand how they can stand one side and watch a house go down in flame, with kids inside, and do nothing,
and then watch some other people risk their lives to rescue them, then later tell those who risked their lives that the way they saved the kids are wrong.
They did something, didn't they?
They *pray* that the kids inside will get saved.
Please don't tell me praying for people is NATO.
Of course, your burning house analogy is weak. In real life, the kids will be desperate to escape. BUT note what Paul said about the unsaved - it is in their nature to reject the gospel.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:well. the jews said Jesus was wrong too. ah well
They have more similarities than you can imagine.
Learn to see similarities, not just differences.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Parable is about telling a story that carries a message. That is why different messages is received by different people. The reason for discussion is to put these different messages and then use our reasoning to see which make better sense in terms of the teaching by Jesus.
It is quite foolish to take it literally but it is even more foolish not to try and make sense out of the mesasge behind it.
Lectio Divina! ^^
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:well. the jews said Jesus was wrong too. ah well
dumbdumb, so far you have not been able to proof anything you said from a biblical point of view.
You asked for quotes that support my view and I gave to you - you have no reply. Instead, you came up with other quotes which you did not says for what?
Then, you bring in your dead friend, uncles and personal opinions which does nothing for the discussion.
You depended on Chin Eng to help you and ride on his comments when you clearly do not even know that his stand is different from yours!
You are confused over the quotes we are talking about and you start acussing people of branding you when there was none. You start calling people names and cursing with no reason except from those you make up.
You think that only you are saved because you have faith?
Did you wonder why Jesus said not all who call Him Lord with go to heaven but those who do the will of His father? It was quoted before and are you confused.
You want sower parable? Go read MT13:18-23 and 47:50
Verse 20-21 says : "The one who received it on patches of rock is the man who hears the word and welcomes it at once with joy.But he has no root in him, he does not last, let some trial come, or some persecution on account of the word, and he falls away at once"
What do you think of the above? A person who has faith in the begining but fade away. Still saved? For Chin Eng yes, for you? Do you need to consult Chin Eng first?
Then are all Christians auto saved? For Chin Eng - Yes, for you? Wait for Chin Eng to response first and add on his comments?
You think you are the one superhero that is saving the world with your evangelisation? I have given you enough facts but you respond with nothing......except more accussation and smears.
What has the burning house got to do with this discussion? Do you know how many non-christians died in the recent Sichuan earthquake and the Mnymar cyclone??
At least we pray for them sincerely and ask God for mercy for these unfortunate victims.
Where are you? Wasting your time acussing people instead of spreading the good news there? Those non-christians are all going to hell? You know for sure? And what are you doing about it? Talk is cheap! Count how many lives you did not save..........
Unless you wake up and grow up, there is nothing to discuss with you.
P.S. don't bring in anymore innocent dead friends and realtives of yours to this discussions.....let them rest in peace! thanks.
wow, this thread is still surviving leh. yawn
Originally posted by qlqq9:wow, this thread is still surviving leh. yawn
yeah.... i wonder why too....
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:What do you think of the above? A person who has faith in the begining but fade away. Still saved? For Chin Eng yes, for you? Do you need to consult Chin Eng first?
Then are all Christians auto saved? For Chin Eng - Yes, for you? Wait for Chin Eng to response first and add on his comments?
my... aren't we all testy this morning....
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
You are confused over the quotes we are talking about and you start acussing people of branding you when there was none. You start calling people names and cursing with no reason except from those you make up.
He is confused because he willfully disregarded my advice to use a framework to analyse the issue and his arrogance got the better of him. Then he started quoting dead people, burning houses and dying kids.
He should read more on systematic theology.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:yeah.... i wonder why too....
my... aren't we all testy this morning....
- I believe nothing short of an outright rejection of Jesus will take away one's salvation.
I have faith today.... but does that mean that faith do not waver? if our faith do waver, is there like a gauge somewhere in heaven that will automatically take away one's salvation once it goes below the red line? so where's the failing point? or when the faith level goes up, I get my salvation again?
... of course when this faith totally disappear.... and the individual questions one's belief... it is a totally different matter.- Are all Christians auto saved?? You might want to rephrase this question. Shouldn't it be: are all individuals auto saved once he becomes a Christian?
Yes. In the pivotal passage of salvation John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
To paraphrase someone else in this thread.... if God had intended for WORKS to be part of the equation, God would have said so. Therefore my personal opinion (note: it's personal opinion) is that for whatever verses that talks about faith and works, there must be another explanation.
ha...ha...ha...I know lah...no problem - we are all entitled to our belief as long as we are accountable for it to God. I did not intend to get your response....now that you did, dumbdumb can just ride on your views
Originally posted by Icemoon:He is confused because he willfully disregarded my advice to use a framework to analyse the issue and his arrogance got the better of him. Then he started quoting dead people, burning houses and dying kids.
He should read more on systematic theology.
I think most people who bother to read this will share your view.....and that's the reason why he think he is right when he is not even sure what he is talking about. I guess this is just a kid who think he has seen the world - part of growing up - Forgive lah....(ah...Catholic!!!)
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:What has the burning house got to do with this discussion? Do you know how many non-christians died in the recent Sichuan earthquake and the Mnymar cyclone??
At least we pray for them sincerely and ask God for mercy for these unfortunate victims.
actually, I wonder.... why bother?
Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
... not attempting to stop those who do nor trying to convince anyone that it is wrong.... but does not seem to see a reason to do so....
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:dumbdumb, so far you have not been able to proof anything you said from a biblical point of view.
You asked for quotes that support my view and I gave to you - you have no reply. Instead, you came up with other quotes which you did not says for what?
Then, you bring in your dead friend, uncles and personal opinions which does nothing for the discussion.
You depended on Chin Eng to help you and ride on his comments when you clearly do not even know that his stand is different from yours!
You are confused over the quotes we are talking about and you start acussing people of branding you when there was none. You start calling people names and cursing with no reason except from those you make up.
You think that only you are saved because you have faith?
Did you wonder why Jesus said not all who call Him Lord with go to heaven but those who do the will of His father? It was quoted before and are you confused.
You want sower parable? Go read MT13:18-23 and 47:50
Verse 20-21 says : "The one who received it on patches of rock is the man who hears the word and welcomes it at once with joy.But he has no root in him, he does not last, let some trial come, or some persecution on account of the word, and he falls away at once"
What do you think of the above? A person who has faith in the begining but fade away. Still saved? For Chin Eng yes, for you? Do you need to consult Chin Eng first?
Then are all Christians auto saved? For Chin Eng - Yes, for you? Wait for Chin Eng to response first and add on his comments?
You think you are the one superhero that is saving the world with your evangelisation? I have given you enough facts but you respond with nothing......except more accussation and smears.
What has the burning house got to do with this discussion? Do you know how many non-christians died in the recent Sichuan earthquake and the Mnymar cyclone??
At least we pray for them sincerely and ask God for mercy for these unfortunate victims.
Where are you? Wasting your time acussing people instead of spreading the good news there? Those non-christians are all going to hell? You know for sure? And what are you doing about it? Talk is cheap! Count how many lives you did not save..........
Unless you wake up and grow up, there is nothing to discuss with you.
P.S. don't bring in anymore innocent dead friends and realtives of yours to this discussions.....let them rest in peace! thanks.
i did reply to your bible quotes. and i did supply bible quotes to support what i've said. but apparently just as the jews were blind to Jesus's truth, so are you. i've pasted and REpasted what i've said for your convenience. Grow some eyes.
you haven't answered me, did the thief who died beside Jesus, did he have any works to show for his salvation?
Did you even read what I said about luke? because apparently you didn't acknowledge what I said either, but you kept saying my quote isn't supported by the bible.
LOL, prayer for the dead.. i said it once, and i'll say it again, you guys build better tombs than houses for the living. have the thought of sharing the gospel even occurred to you in your entire catholic life?
have you shared your faith with Jesus to others who never heard before? Have you been to a mission trip before? If prayer for the dead wasn't part of the church schedule, you wouldn't even be participating in it! and as for begging God for mercy for their souls. Apparently, you don't read enough. Those who has the Son, has life, and those who don't, doesn't. Honestly, I don't pray for the dead, Those who died with the Son in their lives, are already receiving the greatest blessing ever, and nothing I can pray for can add to that. Unless you're saying thanksgiving. And as for those who died without Christ, I only feel regret.
I don't try to give excuses for myself by "offering some prayers" hoping God will change His mind about holiness.
The only way to the Father is through the Son. Can God change what He decrees? Even with all His compassion, He has to uphold His holiness.
Also, Jesus didn't tell you to pray for the dead, He told you to make disciples of all nations. And what have YOU done for the latter?
And as for the parable of the sower - I once experienced this part in my life, And I left the church for awhile, before coming back. Have you? What you know are just theory, while i've tasted every bit, that's why what I said don't make sense to you. You're so sheltered in the fact that the catholic church is the "one true church", you're so oblivious to so many things.
Your family probably are catholics as well, do you ever feel the anxiety of knowing that your family could die unsaved? did you ever have to face percercution from your family, driven out from your house because you became a believer? did you have to face cold stares and words of anger everytime you try to share the good news?
If your family aren't believers, then what are you going to do about it? wait until there is an opportunity to pray for their dead souls, hoping God will spare them?
You're just somebody who knows what the word teaches, but does not what the word demands. You have knowledge, but I have works. Works not because I'm afraid I'll lose my salvation, though. That's the whole point.
You want my stand? My stand is that salvation comes from faith and faith alone. Because in the end, that's what the word demands, that we do the Father's will, which is to look to the Son, and believe. And we shall have eternal life.
Go pray for the dead souls.. seems like a great idea compared to preaching the Word. No stress, no pressure, no frustration, no anxiety, and more importantly, no great personal sacrifice. Great for laid back people like me. =)