My "Christian" Experience
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
That's what I am trying to make you think.....you can ask Chin Eng to help you out and sort it out.
I was once swayed by once saved always saved...I did my own searching and I trust the Catholic version because it make miore sense to me. It's personal choice.
Good luck.
no need lah.... i am not in a position to help anyone.
i am glad you finally stated the magic words - it's a personal choice.
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Anyway I still owe the catholics here, the reasons why i'm so adversely affected by them.
Firstly, regarding my family's salvation, I explained it before, but i don't know if anyone read it, or swept it under their carpet or whatever.
My aunt's a devout catholic, but for so many years in her life, she didn't share anything about the good news to us, for reasons i don't know la. Maybe she thought that we somehow will believe in Jesus without hearing about Him before. She never once told me about Jesus, she never once shared testimonies about how good God is etc.
And once after my family received salvation, then she appeared with her uppity friends who started going about "they're the oldest, thus they're the best" speech. I was so infurated, really inside my heart, i really wanted to drive them out of my house, they didn't do anything for my family, now they want us to be on the catholic side?
And if it's not because of protestant christians, my family would remain unsaved. The girl who passed away so unfortunately a few days ago, would be unsaved.
Another thing is that almost everytime, catholics always say something flakey to me.
- My aunt said that guan yin, i was a buddhist before that, is actually a saint. (because when i became a christian, i refused to worship idols, and my aunt tried to make it sound like it's ok)
- a priest told me that satan would be forgiven of his sins, if only he would humble himself and repent
- once attending a catholic meeting, I was still searching for a church, my aunt took me there, the speaker was talking about fasting on bread and water, and was addressing the issue about whether can drink ribena or milo or not, the speaker said that why don't you ask Saint (sombody) at the back of the church, can or not?
- And in the same meeting, the speaker was talking about this brown string with 2 pieces of plastic, i've forgotten the name for it, was saying that this priest in the past received a vision, where somebody gave him a brown cloak or cloth or something, and said that anyone who wore this, will receive unlimited grace and can escape either purgatory or smth (this was really very long ago, i can't really remember) and added that non believers can wear it also.
- Also, in the same meeting, the speaker said that anything you want, you can pray to Saint Joseph, he everything "pao ka liao".
- Also in the same meeting, the speaker was talking about marraige or something, and she said that mother mary is the best matchmaker there is.
- And this is the most recent, a friend of mine, was telling me about this really great bible study thing she attends at a catholic church. and she told me the priest made such a funny joke "it's ok to have murderous thoughts of your boss in your head, so long as you don't bring a knife to office the next day and kill him"
Flakey?
- My aunt said that guan yin, i was a buddhist before that, is actually a saint. (because when i became a christian, i refused to worship idols, and my aunt tried to make it sound like it's ok)
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oh, also, not to mention nearly 90% of my catholic friends don't live pious lives. their family are so liberal with vulgarities, on one hand they build huge altars in their homes, and every new year eve, they throw huge parties, smoke, gamble, "fuck here" "fuck there". when we're around to play bridge. Like it's a cool thing to say like that.
And my catholic friend's always sleeping around, and telling us his conquests etc.
another catholic friend of sorts, dresses very liberally, and her mum calls her possessed by demons, always tell others how demonic her daughter is, pour holy water on her etc. so she now hates her mum.
so why should i take anything catholics say seriously, if this is what i see?
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Your apologises is not needed because I was never angry in the first place. I told you why you should not attached conditions to faith if that's what you believed. It's ok.
Once you attached conditions that good faith leads to good works, you indirectly supporting what I said because James said faith without work is dead.
You said that faith that do not lead to good works is not good faith and these people will not be saved.
You support the last judgement story that christians can end up in goats. If one lost his faith after baptism, he is a christian. By baptisim, he is saved and cannot be unsaved liao...
see the problem.....it's not that you are wrong to disagree with me - Chin Eng disagreed, But because you are not clear where you stand.....
That's what I am trying to make you think.....you can ask Chin Eng to help you out and sort it out.
I was once swayed by once saved always saved...I did my own searching and I trust the Catholic version because it make miore sense to me. It's personal choice.
Good luck.
still not answering my question
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in my opinion, i think the weakness in the older catholic structure (this is not a critique, but my personal observation) is that the church focuses much on pulpit ministry, ie attending mass etc etc. In the past I have never heard of catholic Bible studies, or cell groups. Perhaps it may be because the church have never encourage the individual to read the Bible for themselves, or to study into the concept of discipleship.
Hence the resulting congregation are people who will piously go to service, but are still entrenched with many of their earthly habits.
I do not deny that dumb2's examples strike a chord in my heart. Perhaps it may be changing with folks like mrlim.
However to balance it up, I have heard many dubious and ridiculous sermons from protestant pastors myself.
This is the other extreme of the balance where a church focus very very much of the spiritual aspect of Christian living to a point where the church raises pantang Christians, cannot watch this show, cannot eat this food, cannot listen to this music - all because they are afraid of offending God.
dumb2, all I can say is, don't judge the individuals by your past experiences.
some Catholics I know personally are the nicest people I have come across,
some protestants I know are the biggest s-holes that I seen.
so one bad apple don't spoil the whole basket.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
in my opinion, i think the weakness in the older catholic structure (this is not a critique, but my personal observation) is that the church focuses much on pulpit ministry, ie attending mass etc etc. In the past I have never heard of catholic Bible studies, or cell groups. Perhaps it may be because the church have never encourage the individual to read the Bible for themselves, or to study into the concept of discipleship.
Hence the resulting congregation are people who will piously go to service, but are still entrenched with many of their earthly habits.
I do not deny that dumb2's examples strike a chord in my heart. Perhaps it may be changing with folks like mrlim.
However to balance it up, I have heard many dubious and ridiculous sermons from protestant pastors myself.
This is the other extreme of the balance where a church focus very very much of the spiritual aspect of Christian living to a point where the church raises pantang Christians, cannot watch this show, cannot eat this food, cannot listen to this music - all because they are afraid of offending God.
dumb2, all I can say is, don't judge the individuals by your past experiences.
some Catholics I know personally are the nicest people I have come across,
some protestants I know are the biggest s-holes that I seen.
so one bad apple don't spoil the whole basket.
ironically, i'm kind of seeing a catholic girl now. i wonder what will happen if we were to be serious though. sigh
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
ironically, i'm kind of seeing a catholic girl now. i wonder what will happen if we were to be serious though. sigh
wah liao... after all that you are are seeing a catholic girl....see malcom/mrlim.... there is at least ONE catholic that dumb2 likes.....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng: wah liao... after all that you are are seeing
a catholic girl....
see malcom/mrlim.... there is at least ONE catholic that dumb2 likes.....
why not? she's nice!
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
why not? she's nice!
all the best.....see? malcom, I am not anti-catholic.
at this point some other Christians will start to ask dumb2 to go for counselling
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
all the best.....see? malcom, I am not anti-catholic.
at this point some other Christians will start to ask dumb2 to go for counselling
either that or the catholics will ask her for councilling.
which gives me a question. what happens if a catholic and a protestant marry. i heard that they can only marry if they promise to raise the kid in the catholic faith, or it won't be recognised by the catholic church.
and there's a friend in my church who is dating a catholic guy. and both of them are going to anglican side. is he gonna get excommunicated? and what does that mean?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!
ironically, i'm kind of seeing a catholic girl now. i wonder what will happen if we were to be serious though. sigh
How about both of you believe in the original Abrahamic faith - Judaism. See problem solved. Miracle do happen, you know. There are many good things in the original faith.
1. You don't need to convert, to become a "Jew". You can remain gentile.
2. You are not obligated to follow the 613 laws. You only need to observe the 7 laws of Noah. Please read acts chapter 15 of the NT.
3. No need to tithe 10 % of Income. In the first place it is against the Torah for the church to collect 10% of your income. You see, the NT is silent on this 10% thingy.
4. You get to worship Almighty GOD, Adonai Elohim, the "King of the Universe".
Shalom
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
How about both of you believe in the original Abrahamic faith - Judaism. See problem solved. Miracle do happen, you know. There are many good things in the original faith.
1. You don't need to convert, to become a "Jew". You can remain gentile.
2. You are not obligated to follow the 613 laws. You only need to observe the 7 laws of Noah. Please read acts chapter 15 of the NT.
3. No need to tithe 10 % of Income. In the first place it is against the Torah for the church to collect 10% of your income. You see, the NT is silent on this 10% thingy.
4. You get to worship Almighty GOD, Adonai Elohim, the "King of the Universe".
Shalom
lol, in the words of House, "They killed our Lord! Are you going to trust them?"
are you seriously jewish?
haha... 7 laws ah. If i remain a christian, i only need to obey 2 (if i love God that is)
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
lol, in the words of House, "They killed our Lord! Are you going to trust them?"
are you seriously jewish?
haha... 7 laws ah. If i remain a christian, i only need to obey 2 (if i love God that is)
The Jews did not kill Jesus. He was killed by the Romans. However, even if it was the Roman who physically killed Jesus, we still say GOD did because everything in heaven or under the heaven cannot happen without GOD's permission. Even Satan need to seek permission from GOD. Please read JOB.
Ah, the famous 2 laws of Christ. How many do you think this 2 laws will expand into? If I am not mistaken, how about the command to spread the gospel etc. How about this teaching of Jesus:
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. NASB
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
why do you keep insisting that I am ashamed of my denomination? also what makes you think that I am unaware of my heritage? having said that, changes is inevitable and many Methodist churches have embarked onto a path that may not even run in harmony to the Methodist heritage.
it always interesting to go back in time to see why people do what they had done, but that is obviously not possible. So we can only interpret their actions, but I really wonder if our interpretations are correct.
sure it is easy to say when the number of internet users in Singapore is so high. there is no need to further prove it because we are not conversing via the internet. my point is: all our postulations.... how has that got to do with that poor family that my church is ministering to, at nearby Batam, or the farmer who attends the church that my own pastor has helped built at Fujian. This people do not have the sophistry of the internet nor have they the benefit of a higher education. All they have is probably a torn down bible and a simple promise of salvation. If this promise of salvation is wrong, according to all your internet research, does that mean that these illiterate never received their salvation?
I never insist that you are ashamed of your denomination. Rather, the point is that staying 20 years in the same church is not indicative whether you are proud of your denomination.
Why people do what they done? It is impossible to know exactly why Jesus wrote on the sand and what He wrote. But it is certainly possible to know why John Wesley thought the way he did, given the body of Christian writings available today.
The context was never about the Batam family or the Fujian farmer. It was about you guys.
Anyway if you want to bring in Batam or Fujian examples, I can also bring in the millions of Catholics before the 20th century who were uneducated and did not even have access to the Bible. So how? They went for penance and did all things unimaginable to Christians today. Does that mean they never receive their salvation?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
haha... 7 laws ah. If i remain a christian, i only need to obey 2 (if i love God that is)
You are confused about the laws.
Many people don't understand why there are the 10 commandments, why there are 613 Jewish commandments, why Jesus said 2 commandments, why creation1656 said 7. So how many commandments are there exactly?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
ironically, i'm kind of seeing a catholic girl now. i wonder what will happen if we were to be serious though. sigh
Hmm, God arranged for her to change your view about Catholicism? =)
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
I never insist that you are ashamed of your denomination. Rather, the point is that staying 20 years in the same church is not indicative whether you are proud of your denomination.
Why people do what they done? It is impossible to know exactly why Jesus wrote on the sand and what He wrote. But it is certainly possible to know why John Wesley thought the way he did, given the body of Christian writings available today.
The context was never about the Batam family or the Fujian farmer. It was about you guys.
Anyway if you want to bring in Batam or Fujian examples, I can also bring in the millions of Catholics before the 20th century who were uneducated and did not even have access to the Bible. So how? They went for penance and did all things unimaginable to Christians today. Does that mean they never receive their salvation?
again... if i say i am proud of being a Methodist, sure someone will point out the problems, if i say i am not proud, you'd ask why i stay there for so long.... actually I don't even understand whether I am proud of the Methodist tradition or not has anything to do with this discussion.
so again, the Methodist label is really unimportant, and in my opinion neither is anglican, presbyterian, pentacostal etc etc.
the context was about what you say on the amount of information one can get to improve one self on the knowledge of salvation.
so your millions and my farmers.... did they receive salvation or not even though they are unable to have the internet knowledge. to me, of course they did. to you, you had to go through the ordo salutis and all that jazz for an explanation.
so those folks who never had the benefit of knowing ordo salutis, how, can YOU tell me whether they receive salvation or not?
...you see, ice, i think your issue is that you like to see the world through labels, be it calvinist, arminist, methodist, anglican, synergist, monergist and what have you....
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Hmm, God arranged for her to change your view about Catholicism? =)
or maybe, God has arranged me to change her views about catholicism? Heh
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ur church friends are nothing but shit.. christian should be reaching their hands out to the unknown world.. not locking urself up in church
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Originally posted by youyayu:
ur church friends are nothing but shit.. christian should be reaching their hands out to the unknown world.. not locking urself up in church
hmm. what makes u think they nv reach out their hands to the unknown world?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
n my opinion, i think the weakness in the older catholic structure (this is not a critique, but my personal observation) is that the church focuses much on pulpit ministry, ie attending mass etc etc. In the past I have never heard of catholic Bible studies, or cell groups. Perhaps it may be because the church have never encourage the individual to read the Bible for themselves, or to study into the concept of discipleship.
Hence the resulting congregation are people who will piously go to service, but are still entrenched with many of their earthly habits.
I do not deny that dumb2's examples strike a chord in my heart. Perhaps it may be changing with folks like mrlim.
However to balance it up, I have heard many dubious and ridiculous sermons from protestant pastors myself.
This is the other extreme of the balance where a church focus very very much of the spiritual aspect of Christian living to a point where the church raises pantang Christians, cannot watch this show, cannot eat this food, cannot listen to this music - all because they are afraid of offending God.
dumb2, all I can say is, don't judge the individuals by your past experiences.
some Catholics I know personally are the nicest people I have come across,
some protestants I know are the biggest s-holes that I seen.
so one bad apple don't spoil the whole basket.
I share your opinion on what you tell dumbdumb....
As for the Catholic Church, the long history means many screw up before etc...it's a fact.
I do not know why but most protestant seems to think that the Catholic Church do not encourage reading of the bible......maybe because Catholic do not use bible verses in our daily talks as much as the protestant.
But if you look at the Catholic Mass, you will notice that we have 3 bible readings...so it is not true that they disocourage reading the bible...in fact they are encouraging.
Earthly habits? I don't understand on this....Traditions? I also don't care much. All I know is that all prayers and things we do at Mass are all in the bible as per teachings of Jesus and all Catholics churches does the same.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
still not answering my question
About the thief? Simply that unless you are judgemental, this example is not suitable in our discussions. Unless you proved that he never do good deeds before lor...can you?
Did he stand up for Jesus when the other thief mock him? Is that not a good deed to stand up for justice?
You said he has nothing to show but all the bad things you listed but that's what you think......Can eveything be decided based on what you think alone?
How about what I think? Want to talk about the sinful woman or not? OR the sower ?
Still don't get it? Brother huo liao lah.....already dating Catholic girl already....learn to respect others... Girls you can accept - guys you hate ?
Before you jump - look first..... If you are serious in going to the RCIA, your opinion will change because what you say is what you think......it may not represent the truth.
You aunty is your aunty...I don't want to comment because I do not know what is going on. Your experience may be true to you but it may also not be true because you already showed that you are bias.....everything is based on you think......but I do not know details and therefore don't want to comments.
I have never heard any Catholic priest or speakers telling anyone to "pray to Saint Joseph, he everything "pao ka liao". Every Catholic knows that every Saints have their own respective area of expertise...
By the way, when we say pray here, we do not mean pray to them like they are God. They are NOT God. It is just to ask them to pray with us and for us. Just like if you ask a friend to pray for you......aiyah....forget you don't believe in prayers one....still haven't reply me about prayer leh... NO.....don't want liao......otherwise new subject to argue.
But like I says, no hard feeling because what you think of me or Catholics make do difference in my life.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
either that or the catholics will ask her for councilling.
which gives me a question. what happens if a catholic and a protestant marry. i heard that they can only marry if they promise to raise the kid in the catholic faith, or it won't be recognised by the catholic church.
and there's a friend in my church who is dating a catholic guy. and both of them are going to anglican side. is he gonna get excommunicated? and what does that mean?
you better check if protestant can marry catholics first before you worry about the catholic church.
my friend (protestant) want to marry a catholic (20 years ago) and his pastor say NO! anyway, he is happy married with the catholic but he is still a protestant but everyweek, go with the whole family to a catholic church.
he never accept anything catholic before...now, after 20 years of going to catholic church, he knows many things he thought before was bias and untrue....I.E. the info that his church members gave him was incorrect.
so check the protestant stand.....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
no need lah.... i am not in a position to help anyone.
i am glad you finally stated the magic words - it's a personal choice.
Yes, it's a personal choice...till now, dumbdumb still not sure what he is discussing about.... if you can, help him lah....you easier to talk to him because he listen to you. Teach him about once saved always saved otherwise, he keep slapping his own face and get angry with Catholics.....blaming us...
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
one can get to improve one self on the knowledge of salvation.
so your millions and my farmers.... did they receive salvation or not even though they are unable to have the internet knowledge. to me, of course they did. to you, you had to go through the ordo salutis and all that jazz for an explanation.
so those folks who never had the benefit of knowing ordo salutis, how, can YOU tell me whether they receive salvation or not?
I'm not so sure you know. :P
I mean, if my millions erroneously? believe in salvation by faith and work, are they going to get saved? This is for dumbdumb to answer.
From the ordo salutis (ahem), the answer to your question is, only God knows who is saved and who is not.