My "Christian" Experience
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Anyway bottomline is. If what you say is true (and please, enough with the "it doesn't matter what we both think" statement. I already elaborated with bible verses above), and that good works is a precondition for salvation, the whole world can just go to hell right now. Because everyday you're going to do something wrong, everyday you're going to forget to pay penance for some minor sins which slipped your mind, everyday you're going to piss someone off, or be pissed at someone. You'll be too busy trying to pull your butt out of the fryer to be effective in being fruitful.
But if what I say is true, and supported by the Word and proven by my family's life, that good works is the result of salvation, then. Well, then nothing actually, except maybe Jesus can now effectively use you, since you're now more focused in the family business of leading the lost home, instead of saving yourself.
So maybe, just maybe, it's you who need to reconsider your position. Keep an open mind? I mean, yeah, I'm young, I'm immature, what do I know right? compared with the towering wisdom of the catholic chruch. Maybe Jesus do actually use the fools to shame the wise, the weak to shame the strong?Good for you and your family.....what about the rest who also felt the same like you but belongs to other denominations?
Go and checck it out to confirm for yourself - as the majority of christians worldwide is still Catholics and most of them felt the same way too...
If going by what you says, who cares about works? Save means saved liao...once saved always saved.....no conditions attached. Otherwise, Jesus would have died for nothing.....(you need me to help give you bible quotes to support or youtube video?) Enjoy life brother, no need to sacrifice for God lah...waste time, pray for what ? Already go heaven - confirmed liao.
If you want to tell me, but it's not like that because....you are automatically attaching conditions to your belief making it INVALID! Saved means saved liao and that's God's promise and supported by the bible (perhaps not)...........
If so, why got The Last Judgement huh ? Should be no judgement liao mah...someone forget to delete this from the bible lah....
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
The rest answer you later....not to "siam" but got to do something else........
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
hmm, can explain why u disagree? and if you agree with the 2nd, then it would make sense.
because catholics believe that works is part of salvation. but who knows the reason why they do good works? can good work done with the wrong intention be any good?
my stand is that salvation is by faith and faith alone. and that faith, will produce good works (because the heart will always be in the right place) in it's own course.
good works, driven by love. and not because it's an obligation for salvation (since i don't worry about it) but EVERYTHING was shot down and condecended on because i didn't type in bible verses for it. (ah~~ catholic!)
Christians who love God may not go to church for various reasons. I mean, your statement very strong leh. You say they WILL go to church if they love God.
I'm referring more to Protestant churches. You can skip one or two months of church, no problem. But Catholic church works differently. When you attend Catholic church, your mentality must change. You go there not primarily to worship God and partake the once in a while "bread and wine". You go there to get nourished by the Mass. You go there to receive the blood and body of Christ. Note it is blood and body, no longer bread and wine.
You are spot on, dumbdumb, regarding good works. I quote you the WCF:
1. Good works are only such as God hath commanded in his holy Word, and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretense of good intention.
2. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith: and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.
However, you may have misunderstood the Catholic folks. I believe they are referring to 2.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
i was taught that salvation can be denied. say a christian meets an asshole online, and stumbled by his condecending ways, decides to become an athiest. he denied salvation and lost his faith in the exisntance of God and the goodness of salvation. Then he'd be as good as the unsaved. that explains why they have altar calls for backsliders along with non believers.
but the point wasn't about perseverance. the point was at the point of believing. do you need good works as part of salvation.
I prefer the Reformed way of looking at such issue.
To use the analogy, if God purchases your salvation with the blood of Christ, can you fall away? What God wants, God will get because He is God. The blood of Christ is shed for the precious few, not all mankind. The shepherd bleeds for his sheep, not all animals.
The "trick" here is always look from God's perspective. If we analyze the issue from our perspective, it gets confusing because our life has ups and downs. So one moment you are saved, the next moment you turned atheist?
At the point of believing, what do you believe in? Why is there an issue about good works then?
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Christians who love God may not go to church for various reasons. I mean, your statement very strong leh. You say they WILL go to church if they love God.
I'm referring more to Protestant churches. You can skip one or two months of church, no problem. But Catholic church works differently. When you attend Catholic church, your mentality must change. You go there not primarily to worship God and partake the once in a while "bread and wine". You go there to get nourished by the Mass. You go there to receive the blood and body of Christ. Note it is blood and body, no longer bread and wine.
You are spot on, dumbdumb, regarding good works. I quote you the WCF:
However, you may have misunderstood the Catholic folks. I believe they are referring to 2.
then do they love God? That's my point, if you are a christian, and you don't have a problem with just attending service once on christmas and easter, and skipping the rest, i think it's a good time to ask yourself how real is salvation to you, and do you love God, because he certainly did alot of you.
but on the other hand. you can goto church, just for the sake of being there. Love need not exist in your heart to be in church, just like love was not in my heart when i was a buddhist going to a temple.
That's why again, a christian who loves God, will goto church (without being told etc), and if he can't, his heart is longing to goto church. But a christian who goes to church, may not love God.
I really don't think I need to elaborate until so detailed right?
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
The rest answer you later....not to "siam" but got to do something else........
no problem. oh just something.
it's not that i misunderstood about the condom thing, but wikipedia says that roman catholics only endorse natural family planning. and it's a mortal sin to use contraceptives. And apparently, if it isn't important enough for the great number of catholics to rewrite it, how can I be expected to act differently about it?
and with regards to penance. Sorry, no bible quotes on it, so yeah, again, it's your stuff, not mine. Point is, if you're going to jibe at others, and then say that it's God's view that matters, not ours. Then it's interesting to know that it's not how you think about the jibe that matters, or whether mine matters, but God isn't it. And since you have penance for such stuff, and a very harsh punishment if something goes unconfessed (something the catholic endorses, so i wouldn't know about it, or need to for that matter)
If you have not responded in the way you did, the discussions would have ended.
actually, if you read carefully. if you didn't say this:
Well, that's a good way to escape when you cannot support what you are saying.
nothing would have happened.
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Hi Icemoon, Not that im trying to debate with you, but when you said
whats that supposed to mean?
I agree with you. But for the sake of discussion, can we leave out megachurches? In their case, size really doesn't mean anything. To say that maybe GOD allowed them to thrive, as Gamaliel in Acts reasoned, is not wrong. But then, i look at certain Christian cults out there and i wonder ...
My impression is those Protestants who parade bible verses do more harm than good usually. You see, your "discussion partner" can always use it against you. And you sink deeper into the morass. Well grounded Christians complement their sound theology with scriptural support. So they talk theology, not half baked ideas. I'm not criticising those without theological background and calling their personal conviction half baked ideas. Rather it is the mentality. When you pad your half baked ideas with bible verse, you are making a statement - the bible agrees with me! Not saying those half baked ideas are lies or heresy, however.
I find it weird why some Christians see theology as not very helpful in their Christian life and as a result not inclined to make an effort to study it. It is amusing because in our society, we usually study for our livelihood. Why people study MBA or CFA? For fun? Now you have something that is surely of interest to you as a Christian, yet you brush it aside.
Ok, we shall leave megachurch out. :P
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Eh, is it so obvious what my doctrinal framework is? What gave me away? Don't recall talking about this with you. But really, i was from a methodist church, now in a pentecostal church and feel that the calvinist position makes more sense. Makes me what? Confused?
Hmm, it is not often a Protestant quotes patristics you know. whahaha.
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Originally posted by malcom:
Why not leave the decision on who is more rightous, to our Father in Heaven? And let us concentrate on discovering what the God say in the bible and try our best to do it.
Perhaps, christians can also learn from the sages. To quote from the Mishnah. Qiddushin. 4.14.
K. Abba Gurion of Sidon says in the name of Abba Gurya, " A man should not teach his son to be an ass driver, a camel driver, a baber, a sailor, a heardsman, or a shopkeeper. For their trade is a trade of thives."
L. R. Judah says in his name, "Most ass drivers are evil, most camel drivers are decent, most sailors are saintly, the best among physicians is going to Gehenna, and the best of butchers is a partner of Amalek."
M. R. Nehorai says, " I should lay aside every trade in the world and teach my son only Torah.
N. "For a man eats its fruits in this world, and the principal remains for the world to come.
O. "But other trade are not that way.
P. "When a man gets sick or old or has pains and cannot do his job, lo, he dies of starvation.
Q. "But with Torah it is not that way.
R. "But it keeps him from all evil when he is young, and it gives him a future and a hope when he is old.
S. "Concerning his youth, what does it say? They who wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength. And concerning his old age what does it say? They shall still bring forth fruit in old age.
T. "And so it says with regards to the patriarch Abraham, may he rest in peace, And Abraham was old and well along in years, and the LORD blessed Abraham in all things.
U. "We find that the patriarch Abraham kept the entire Torah even before it was revealed, since it says, Since Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandment, my statues, and my laws." The Mishnah a new translation by Jacob Neusner, Yale University Press. pp498-499.
Yes, everybody should concentrate on discovering what GOD say in the bible (Torah) and try their best to to it. If this is achieved there will be Shalom. Perhaps, dumbdumb! would also like to re examine his present church doctrines.
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Originally posted by 24/7:
For me, therein lies the problem that in trying to advance her ecumenical agenda, the Roman Catholic Church has opened its arms so wide to embrace everyone that it might end up strangling itself.
SO, not here to add fire to ur discussion (debate?), but if u could point me somewhere.
The only agenda that the Catholic Church has is that it try to save all people, nothing else. Yes, the Church opens its arms so wide to embrace everyone, but it doesn't compromise on the faith, doctrines.
What happened is Catholic Church has tried very hard to embrace Protestans, with Vatican II, but there is no result so far, instead its loosing its traditional members like SSPX and other traditionals. If I am not wrong, in Vatican II, Protestant leaders are invited as an observer, and the current Pope in the council, was dressed informally, which I believe he is trying to make Catholic look less threatening.
And now it is trying to embrace back the traditionals.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
no problem. oh just something.
it's not that i misunderstood about the condom thing, but wikipedia says that roman catholics only endorse natural family planning. and it's a mortal sin to use contraceptives. And apparently, if it isn't important enough for the great number of catholics to rewrite it, how can I be expected to act differently about it?
and with regards to penance. Sorry, no bible quotes on it, so yeah, again, it's your stuff, not mine. Point is, if you're going to jibe at others, and then say that it's God's view that matters, not ours. Then it's interesting to know that it's not how you think about the jibe that matters, or whether mine matters, but God isn't it. And since you have penance for such stuff, and a very harsh punishment if something goes unconfessed (something the catholic endorses, so i wouldn't know about it, or need to for that matter)
actually, if you read carefully. if you didn't say this:
nothing would have happened.
I was right to say that as you have admitted :
"unfortunately, just like everybody else, what little i know is from what Iearnt. So i guess i'll just fall back on the only one thing I can believe in. the wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is eternal life, He who has the son, has life, he who doesn't have the son, doesn't have life.
and i know i've been very testy of late. i tried to bow out, but apparently, coffeeboy here insulted my effort by smirking and commenting that it was a great way to escape an arguement i cannot support with the bible. sucks right? no choice lor. got to go down swinging if i have to. besides it is a great outlet for me to trash out everything with catholics, since i've got a very big personal grudge against them. can't let it drop yet."
So why blame me if that's your intention, you did not say so. Insead you said:
"if you don't understand that concept. then it just means you haven't experienced it before, that's all I can say abt it.
When you experience it, you'll know."
If you said, you wanted to bow out......no problem - BUT YOU DID NOT! Don't lie.....
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
I was right to say that as you have admitted :
"unfortunately, just like everybody else, what little i know is from what Iearnt. So i guess i'll just fall back on the only one thing I can believe in. the wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is eternal life, He who has the son, has life, he who doesn't have the son, doesn't have life.
and i know i've been very testy of late. i tried to bow out, but apparently, coffeeboy here insulted my effort by smirking and commenting that it was a great way to escape an arguement i cannot support with the bible. sucks right? no choice lor. got to go down swinging if i have to. besides it is a great outlet for me to trash out everything with catholics, since i've got a very big personal grudge against them. can't let it drop yet."
So why blame me if that's your intention, you did not say so. Insead you said:
"if you don't understand that concept. then it just means you haven't experienced it before, that's all I can say abt it.
When you experience it, you'll know."
If you said, you wanted to bow out......no problem - BUT YOU DID NOT! Don't lie.....
and look at what you post in the next post? =) how? if you were in my shoes?
and i did try to bow out. i said that if you didn't understand. i can't explain any better than it. and if you didn't say anything, or said something pacifying, i wouldn't have said anything else. but the moment you tried to make it look like i didn't know what i was talking about and was trying to smoke through. of course i got pissed. if you were in my shoes, you'd be too.
lol, you can deny it, i wouldn't know. but God knows right? After all, as M&P says, only He can judge righteously. Maybe to you, it was something minor which I blew out of proportion and took it personally. But does God see it as something minor? And what if God sees it as an offence, but you didn't, thus not paying penance for it. How does God settle that account?
Also, you keep pushing me to listen to Icemoon. If i am not mistaken, he's not a christian nor a catholic, so you want me to listen to him? He says the bible teaches kids the wrong way of escaping from a snake. Am i suppose to take spiritual guidance from his words? I don't even know when to take him seriously!
and also after all the round and about, i still haven't really gotten my answer. Does what i say about salvation makes sense (please and oh, please, don't tell me that what i say don't matter, yada yada..). - That salvation is by faith only, and with good faith, comes love, which is one of the fruits of the holy spirit developed, and with love, comes good work, which reflects the faith of the person.
which in another words, i translate to layman term - a christian who loves God, goes to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God (which you said is irrelevant because it's not supported by the bible, and i've pasted relevent quotes already)
if not, please tell me, which part of that sentence about salvation don't fit in the bible.
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Ok dumbdumb, it's enough with you liao...I think we all can see you are not here to discuss. You are here to attack Catholics because you hate them.....(you said so yourself - many times).
Reasons we don't need to know......as long we you think you can answer for your actions.
Did you try to engage in a discussion? I don't think so - did I attack you as a person or because you are not Catholic? NO.
I merely state what is happening and you know you are the one saying all the bad things that you think "I think of you" but it was not.....and you also admitted to calling names etc....
You want to know about the thief and sinful woman story? Here you go....
I quote your thief story:
"and another thing. the thief who got pked beside Jesus. He didn't have any works to show for it, except a life of sin - stealing, killing, destroying. All he had was the mustard seed of faith mustered in him, when he saw the sign "King of the Jews", and that same small faith drove him to ask Jesus if He loved him enough to remember him.
And Jesus did. No works, no baptism, no nothing. Except faith. Faith that only Jesus could see.
and that's very comforting, but sure, if you want to make life difficult for yourself, like most other catholics do, be my guest."
How did you conclude that he only has a life of sin - stealing, killing, destroying ?? Did you know him? Or are you being judgemental? Oops...is that wrong?
So why did Jesus forgive him? There was 2 crminals with Jesus, 1 on the right and the other on the left. Even the one being crucified with Jesus mocked at him.....but only 1 did. The other one (you are talking about) said :
"Have you no fear of God at all?"........we are paying for what we did........But this man has done nothing wrong" LK 23:39-43
Did he realised his mistake and is confessing for his mistake?
I quote your sinful woman story :
"Out of nowhere, a sinful woman appeared, most probably a prostitute, and peered into the crowd, trying to spot Jesus. The bible says that she learned that Jesus would be having dinner at this religious leader's house. How did she hear it? I don't know, most probably she heard Jesus preaching and overheard the pharisee inviting Jesus. She was definitely not invited. But what drove her to Jesus' house? She's a prostitute, and she knows that everyone knows that she's a prostitute. If I am a prostitute, I would definitely not go to a place filled with holy people. But why did she do that? Did she hear Jesus preach in the streets? Was the message a message of fear and condemnation, that if she didn't follow His way, she was doomed to the pits of hell? or did she hear the message of love and acceptance?
I'm sure it's because she heard the message of love and acceptance from Jesus. Because it's evident from her actions. She brought along with her a jar of really expensive perfume, probably her only jar, which costed her everything, and showered Jesus with love. Using her tears to wet his feet, and her hair to dry them. And annointed His feet with the perfume."
Why did she do what she did with Jesus's feet? Why not just tell Jesus how much she loved Him and sing praise about Him and tell her how much faith she have? So what saved her? You already answered it and you pressing me to expose you?
You stand cannot be defended by you...I think I can defend your stand better...along with Chin Eng....
God only wants us to love him with all our heart, with all our soul and all our mind. Also to love our neighbour as we love ourselves.
The story about the last judgement is all about showing love to your neighbour......
To Catholics, Christianity is all about, faith, hope and love......
For you, accussation, hatred, crusing etc...but at the same time received God's love, doing God's work by saving the world from fire of hell like a super hero......aiyah...what happen to Sichuan and Mynamar leh...........
Did we make life difficult for Catholics, perhaps, but Jesus said, we should carry our cross and follow him.....a bit of pain here and there ok one....you relax but we treasure the sacrifice that Jesus did for us. (Don't say you never said those things huh....)
Yes, GOD BLESS YOU!
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
and look at what you post in the next post? =) how? if you were in my shoes?
and i did try to bow out. i said that if you didn't understand. i can't explain any better than it. and if you didn't say anything, or said something pacifying, i wouldn't have said anything else. but the moment you tried to make it look like i didn't know what i was talking about and was trying to smoke through. of course i got pissed. if you were in my shoes, you'd be too.
lol, you can deny it, i wouldn't know. but God knows right? After all, as M&P says, only He can judge righteously. Maybe to you, it was something minor which I blew out of proportion and took it personally. But does God see it as something minor? And what if God sees it as an offence, but you didn't, thus not paying penance for it. How does God settle that account?
Also, you keep pushing me to listen to Icemoon. If i am not mistaken, he's not a christian nor a catholic, so you want me to listen to him? He says the bible teaches kids the wrong way of escaping from a snake. Am i suppose to take spiritual guidance from his words? I don't even know when to take him seriously!
and also after all the round and about, i still haven't really gotten my answer. Does what i say about salvation makes sense (please and oh, please, don't tell me that what i say don't matter, yada yada..). - That salvation is by faith only, and with good faith, comes love, which is one of the fruits of the holy spirit developed, and with love, comes good work, which reflects the faith of the person.
which in another words, i translate to layman term - a christian who loves God, goes to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God (which you said is irrelevant because it's not supported by the bible, and i've pasted relevent quotes already)
if not, please tell me, which part of that sentence about salvation don't fit in the bible.
Don't change subject...you said it was because of me....but it is proven it was because of you.... did you want to bow out ? You said yousrelf....did you indicate to me? NEVER! Why blame me now?
And why change subject liao ?
If I am in your shoes, I will check out what those quotes pointed out means....If I don't know, I'll check with my priest, pastor, cell group leader whatever and I will tell you...let me check, I'll come back to you.....
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
no problem. oh just something.
it's not that i misunderstood about the condom thing, but wikipedia says that roman catholics only endorse natural family planning. and it's a mortal sin to use contraceptives. And apparently, if it isn't important enough for the great number of catholics to rewrite it, how can I be expected to act differently about it?
and with regards to penance. Sorry, no bible quotes on it, so yeah, again, it's your stuff, not mine. Point is, if you're going to jibe at others, and then say that it's God's view that matters, not ours. Then it's interesting to know that it's not how you think about the jibe that matters, or whether mine matters, but God isn't it. And since you have penance for such stuff, and a very harsh punishment if something goes unconfessed (something the catholic endorses, so i wouldn't know about it, or need to for that matter)
actually, if you read carefully. if you didn't say this:
nothing would have happened.
I don't understand what you are driving at.....your stand on condom is correct. But you said Catholic faith thrive and grow because we don't use condoms - right?
I already explained to you why you are wrong...... Now you come back with something else?
This is the pattern you have been showing and therefore, it's a waste of time with you...
I have no idea what you are trying to say about penance.....but I sure know that you know nothing about it as well as confessions.....You are free to try make fun of it.
Like I said, at least know what it is first then make a mockery out of it....now not funny leh.........also not insulting leh.......just confusing like you.......
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
One need not be proud of something, yet he is not ashamed of it. For example, many in BP or Pres church, they are ignorant of their own Reformed roots and traditions. Yet they may stay in that church for 20 years. If they are ignorant of their own roots, how to be proud of it?
why do you keep insisting that I am ashamed of my denomination? also what makes you think that I am unaware of my heritage? having said that, changes is inevitable and many Methodist churches have embarked onto a path that may not even run in harmony to the Methodist heritage.
Originally posted by Icemoon:About your type clashing with the type of your founders, fair enough. One doesn't have to conform to all standards to belong to a denomination, but it is interesting to find out why the founders thought the way they did.
it always interesting to go back in time to see why people do what they had done, but that is obviously not possible. So we can only interpret their actions, but I really wonder if our interpretations are correct.
Originally posted by Icemoon:Seriously, who in this forum doesn't have the benefit of higher studies today? The fact you have access to the net means something, isn't it? The context is not about attaining salvation, rather it is about clarifying doubts and learning more about your faith after conversion. The case with dumbdumb here.
sure it is easy to say when the number of internet users in Singapore is so high. there is no need to further prove it because we are not conversing via the internet. my point is: all our postulations.... how has that got to do with that poor family that my church is ministering to, at nearby Batam, or the farmer who attends the church that my own pastor has helped built at Fujian. This people do not have the sophistry of the internet nor have they the benefit of a higher education. All they have is probably a torn down bible and a simple promise of salvation. If this promise of salvation is wrong, according to all your internet research, does that mean that these illiterate never received their salvation?
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Did he realised his mistake and is confessing for his mistake?
and isn't what all christians go through with the sinner's prayer?
knowing that we've led a life of sin, then confessing out sins, and acknowledging that salvation comes from Christ alone, and receiving that gift of grace?
is there any works involved at that point of believing and putting his faith in Christ? Because you keep telling me that good works is a precondition for salvation.
because, unless i'm mistaken again, you're saying that the good works he did here and there was part of the reason why he got saved?
but the thief realised that he led a life of sin, heck, if you broke one commandment, you broke em all, so it didn't really matter actually, since he's a thief, and he realised that the wages of sin is death, he is indeed paying for what he has done, but he also realised that the gift of God is eternal life, and he acknowledged that, and asked Jesus to remember him. That's what i see from this passage.
The other thief didn't place his faith in Jesus, that's what condemned him, isn't it? It wasn't his lack of good works, or anything else. Because, the only difference between the 2 thieves, is that one believed and received, the other rejected. (parable of the sower again)
Why did she do what she did with Jesus's feet? Why not just tell Jesus how much she loved Him and sing praise about Him and tell her how much faith she have? So what saved her? You already answered it and you pressing me to expose you?
and it wasn't because of what she did which saved her. what she did was apart from her salvation. she did it simply because she loves God, it contributed nothing, nothing whatsoever to her salvation status. In another words, she did it, after she was saved. not before her salvation status. As Jesus said, it was her faith which saved her.
Anyway, in the end of it all, i only want to know one thing.. Does what i say about salvation makes sense - That salvation is by faith only, and with good faith, comes love, which is one of the fruits of the holy spirit developed, and with love, comes good work, which reflects the faith of the person.
And finally, yeah, i apologise for making cheap shots at you.
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Originally posted by malcom:
I did't mean you as you Chin Eng, if you see most of my post I use 'we'. These whole things for me is not about self righteousness and telling people that all of you are sinners. We are all sinners. What I am trying to say here is, look, here is the bible passages, let's examine it together and see what it is trying to say using our ability in reasoning. But if you think that I am wrong, and insist that it is a parable, it is ok.
so if that verse is not a parable, why is it that I don't see heaps of half blind Catholics walking around?
Yes here are the bible passages, so do we take them literally or is Jesus trying to illustrate a point? There are no other ways to read it. If it is to be taken literally, we should all poke our eyes out because of some sweet young thing that walked past us and our minds wondered. So shouldn't those priests blind themselves because they defiled some altar boys?
If Jesus trying to illustrate one point, just find what that point is an move on, it is not literal.
Originally posted by malcom:
I always try to explan what Catholic Church stance on this, but I never say that we the Catholic people are better than Protestant. But surprisingly, both Chin Eng and dumbdumb! seems to take it personally and trying to prove that Protestants are more righteous than us Catholics. Why not leave the decision on who is more rightous, to our Father in Heaven? And let us concentrate on discovering what the God say in the bible and try our best to do it.You are writing like a kid! and please refrain from putting words into my mouth. Where have I taken things personally and trying to prove that protestants are more rightoeus that Catholics. If you can find ONE instance that I have done so, I will APOLOGISE. However if you cannot, you owe me an APOLOGY.
I have never even once utter anything negative about Catholics or other religions. If you can fine ONE instance, show it to me!
I am most critical of protestants than folks of other groups. Whatever you believe, to me, remains your own business. You want to pray to Mary go and pray to Mary, I don't care. None of my business. You think there is purgatory, fine, I don't care.
You tell me what you believe, I tell you what I believe. That's all.
However once that is done, and a Catholic embark on a challenging tone of "the scripture is clear" or "you don't understand enough". Then I think the line is crossed.
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lol, now Chin Eng is in a cranky mood.
sorry, Chin, but i differ here. I still feel critical about catholics, especially since they're so uppity, in the end, it always comes down to "We're the oldest, so we're the correct-est"
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
, in the end of it all, i only want to know one thing.. Does what i say about salvation makes sense - That salvation is by faith only, and with good faith, comes love, which is one of the fruits of the holy spirit developed, and with love, comes good work, which reflects the faith of the person.
.... and may I add one line....: while good works are important to the life of a Christian, it has nothing to do with receiving salvation.
.... sorry, I am now riding on you.... i sure hope mrlim doesn't mind
.... to those who disagree with me... or dumb2.... it is actually quite alright with me because I really do not see the need to prove anything one way or another. You will demand scripture and I will provide it, and you will provide your own counter scripture, and I will counter again..... 没完没了!
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
then do they love God? That's my point, if you are a christian, and you don't have a problem with just attending service once on christmas and easter, and skipping the rest, i think it's a good time to ask yourself how real is salvation to you, and do you love God, because he certainly did alot of you.
but on the other hand. you can goto church, just for the sake of being there. Love need not exist in your heart to be in church, just like love was not in my heart when i was a buddhist going to a temple.
That's why again, a christian who loves God, will goto church (without being told etc), and if he can't, his heart is longing to goto church. But a christian who goes to church, may not love God.
I really don't think I need to elaborate until so detailed right?
The whole thing about the Last Judgement is to tell you that Jesus separate people into sheeps and goats based on if they have shown love to their neighbour.
If they did (like the sheeps), they have shown love to God. If they don't (like the goats), they did not show love to God.
So, why we says deeds is important? Because Jesus said so (at least in our teachings) and we need to follow......
Is it about missions, evangelising etc.....? NO (but not that those are not important) but the primary focus is to teach Christians to love not just one another, but everybody regardless of faith. Not go out theer telling people they are going to hell and you are there to save them.....it's good intention but may not be approiate approach. That's all.
Extend your friendship in sincerity and with love, you gain friends....friends who trust you and see how a sincere and loving person you are more likely to be converted because they see "Jesus" in you.....
If you have love for your neighbour, your approach will be that of love and your evangelisation and any other missions will be easier...why we stress a lot of prayers ? To ask God to help us to forgive others and give us strength to love (Go say the Lord's Prayer - something you forget to dispute on). Does not sound right?
Having said that, are all Catholics saints? NO, we never said so as we are all humans and sinners and we will not be perfect. Just like someone said, theer will always be black sheeps. Are they saved, leave that to God....
Hating, getting angry and anyhow whack is exactly the opposite....
Forget about going and not going to Church etc...as your mentor told you - focus on loving God. How, did He not show you in the last judgement?
I am not even asking you to accept this...if you think it make sense, maybe you can dicsuss with someone you trust from your Church. If you gain something out of this, you don't have to thanks me - thanks God.
If you think what I said are all rubbish....it's ok but don't curse Catholic or God, curse me alone.
So, do you think we love God ? Do we have to said it to you ? I think actions speaks louder than words. Go examine what the Catholic faith are doing ..... I postedd something like that before.
Yes, everytime I says GOD BLESS YOU, I mean it.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
lol, now Chin Eng is in a cranky mood.
yup, those of us who have been EH long enough knows that I, CE, am one of the most liberal of all the protestants and have never said anything negative about catholics! -
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Yes, everytime I says GOD BLESS YOU, I mean it.
you might want to do it in lower case. Upper case is synonymous to shouting according to Internet protocol. -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
and isn't what all christians go through with the sinner's prayer?
knowing that we've led a life of sin, then confessing out sins, and acknowledging that salvation comes from Christ alone, and receiving that gift of grace?
is there any works involved at that point of believing and putting his faith in Christ? Because you keep telling me that good works is a precondition for salvation.
because, unless i'm mistaken again, you're saying that the good works he did here and there was part of the reason why he got saved?
but the thief realised that he led a life of sin, heck, if you broke one commandment, you broke em all, so it didn't really matter actually, since he's a thief, and he realised that the wages of sin is death, he is indeed paying for what he has done, but he also realised that the gift of God is eternal life, and he acknowledged that, and asked Jesus to remember him. That's what i see from this passage.
The other thief didn't place his faith in Jesus, that's what condemned him, isn't it? It wasn't his lack of good works, or anything else. Because, the only difference between the 2 thieves, is that one believed and received, the other rejected. (parable of the sower again)
and it wasn't because of what she did which saved her. what she did was apart from her salvation. she did it simply because she loves God, it contributed nothing, nothing whatsoever to her salvation status. In another words, she did it, after she was saved. not before her salvation status. As Jesus said, it was her faith which saved her.
Anyway, in the end of it all, i only want to know one thing.. Does what i say about salvation makes sense - That salvation is by faith only, and with good faith, comes love, which is one of the fruits of the holy spirit developed, and with love, comes good work, which reflects the faith of the person.
And finally, yeah, i apologise for making cheap shots at you.
Your apologises is not needed because I was never angry in the first place. I told you why you should not attached conditions to faith if that's what you believed. It's ok.
Once you attached conditions that good faith leads to good works, you indirectly supporting what I said because James said faith without work is dead.
You said that faith that do not lead to good works is not good faith and these people will not be saved.
You support the last judgement story that christians can end up in goats. If one lost his faith after baptism, he is a christian. By baptisim, he is saved and cannot be unsaved liao...
see the problem.....it's not that you are wrong to disagree with me - Chin Eng disagreed, But because you are not clear where you stand.....
That's what I am trying to make you think.....you can ask Chin Eng to help you out and sort it out.
I was once swayed by once saved always saved...I did my own searching and I trust the Catholic version because it make miore sense to me. It's personal choice.
Good luck.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
lol, now Chin Eng is in a cranky mood.
sorry, Chin, but i differ here. I still feel critical about catholics, especially since they're so uppity, in the end, it always comes down to "We're the oldest, so we're the correct-est"
at the end of the day, we are always critical about someone and something. I am personally quite critical about the megachurches. but in internet forums, it is quite difficult to rein in the emotions, so in my opinion, when two parties argue and use verses to do that, i think we are being disrespectul to the Bible (unless you have a sure win verse).
many churches, even protestant ones, also have the uppity attitude.... yup, I don't like that either, but we ought to distance the individuals with the official "vision statement"
... but it's just my two cents worth.