Originally posted by dumbdumb!:they pray, that they will be saved. if they preached, after they pray about it and God used them, they would have answered their own prayers. so what? christians only preach but don't pray for the unsaved's salvation?
is it impossible to do both? or is it some special God's command that catholics pray, but christians do?
ha.. that's the best analogy to describe how it is. unfortunately. i hope it still makes sense though
Catholic DO and PRAY. And we DO MORE than you think and PRAY MORE than you think....and I have already explained to you with examples. Missions trips etc...are all good but why don't we also start from where we are? easier right? Or do we have to "show" that we do? NO NEED LAH....
The problem why you are getting into negative comments here (not just from me) is not about your belief in faith alone...that's not the problem.
All you said is based on your personal view which may/may not be the true situation. You are too personal and negative......maybe because of your unfortunate background?
Icemoon tried to tell you nicely.......do listen lah.....at least try. Cool down young man....long way to go........
To find out, you need to go to a Catholic Church (and there is one probaly near where you stay) - not to get converted. But to check and see how bad they are so that you can complaint about them more......at least you have first hand info and correct one mah....
Suggestion only huh................
Now you have found a friend M&P and you can ask him for help. He is Catholic and I am sure he will help you one...
If you do not belive in prayers, it's up to you.....Jesus prayed all the time and even teach us the Lord's Prayer right?
To correct you, we don't pray that we will be saved because we are saved. Why, because we have faith in God and we always try our best to do God's will. It is not that difficult to do but it is very difficult to do a very good job. That's it.
Maybe you want to ask how then are we judge on our deeds? It's up to God, we do our best and He knows, that's all that matter.
Is it out of fear for our salvation? NO.
We do it out of obedience to God and we have instructions from Him thru the Bible (in the parables that I tried to make you understand). Jesus said many times that not all who acknowledge Him will go to heaven.....a warning to all Christians.....let us listen to Him.....
Since when do we have to feel insecure about our salvation? NEVER !
Have you not heard that PRAYERS CHANGES THINGS!
wow! Eternal Hope is back!
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i did reply to your bible quotes. and i did supply bible quotes to support what i've said. but apparently just as the jews were blind to Jesus's truth, so are you. i've pasted and REpasted what i've said for your convenience. Grow some eyes.
you haven't answered me, did the thief who died beside Jesus, did he have any works to show for his salvation?
Did you even read what I said about luke? because apparently you didn't acknowledge what I said either, but you kept saying my quote isn't supported by the bible.
LOL, prayer for the dead.. i said it once, and i'll say it again, you guys build better tombs than houses for the living. have the thought of sharing the gospel even occurred to you in your entire catholic life?
have you shared your faith with Jesus to others who never heard before? Have you been to a mission trip before? If prayer for the dead wasn't part of the church schedule, you wouldn't even be participating in it! and as for begging God for mercy for their souls. Apparently, you don't read enough. Those who has the Son, has life, and those who don't, doesn't. Honestly, I don't pray for the dead, Those who died with the Son in their lives, are already receiving the greatest blessing ever, and nothing I can pray for can add to that. Unless you're saying thanksgiving. And as for those who died without Christ, I only feel regret.
I don't try to give excuses for myself by "offering some prayers" hoping God will change His mind about holiness.
The only way to the Father is through the Son. Can God change what He decrees? Even with all His compassion, He has to uphold His holiness.
Also, Jesus didn't tell you to pray for the dead, He told you to make disciples of all nations. And what have YOU done for the latter?
And as for the parable of the sower - I once experienced this part in my life, And I left the church for awhile, before coming back. Have you? What you know are just theory, while i've tasted every bit, that's why what I said don't make sense to you. You're so sheltered in the fact that the catholic church is the "one true church", you're so oblivious to so many things.
Your family probably are catholics as well, do you ever feel the anxiety of knowing that your family could die unsaved? did you ever have to face percercution from your family, driven out from your house because you became a believer? did you have to face cold stares and words of anger everytime you try to share the good news?
If your family aren't believers, then what are you going to do about it? wait until there is an opportunity to pray for their dead souls, hoping God will spare them?
You're just somebody who knows what the word teaches, but does not what the word demands. You have knowledge, but I have works. Works not because I'm afraid I'll lose my salvation, though. That's the whole point.
You want my stand? My stand is that salvation comes from faith and faith alone. Because in the end, that's what the word demands, that we do the Father's will, which is to look to the Son, and believe. And we shall have eternal life.
Go pray for the dead souls.. seems like a great idea compared to preaching the Word. No stress, no pressure, no frustration, no anxiety, and more importantly, no great personal sacrifice. Great for laid back people like me. =)
WAH....this story make it sound like you are "CHRIST" coming back already.....cold stares etc...what is "percercution" huh?
Don't get personal lah....tell you to leave your dead friend and uncle alone liao...let them rest in peace.....
Now, you want to drag other's family in.....for what?
Go on and be laid back, it's your choice.....God says we no need "personal sacrifice" meh? Some sacrifies for God also cannot meh - kay kou ah? Jesus didn't scarifies for you ah?
Hi Icemoon, Not that im trying to debate with you, but when you said
I find it amusing Protestants like to parade bible verses. To me, that's the last thing you should do.
whats that supposed to mean?
I find it weird many Christians are not proud of their own denominational tradition. Those megachurch don't say lah, what tradition do they have?
I agree with you. But for the sake of discussion, can we leave out megachurches? In their case, size really doesn't mean anything. To say that maybe GOD allowed them to thrive, as Gamaliel in Acts reasoned, is not wrong. But then, i look at certain Christian cults out there and i wonder ...
No lah, not higher education. It is enlightening for me to [try to] understand the various theologies.
Guess that makes 2 of us. I'm trying to understand that of Judaism as well.
I find it amusing because Chin Eng and dumbdumb have one thing in common with the Roman Catholics (malcom, mrlimkopi, 24/7?) with regards to salvation - they are synergists!!
Eh, is it so obvious what my doctrinal framework is? What gave me away? Don't recall talking about this with you. But really, i was from a methodist church, now in a pentecostal church and feel that the calvinist position makes more sense. Makes me what? Confused?
Maybe the Catholic brethren can point me in a proper direction. I have encountered a couple of people who turn from the Protestant faith to Catholicism. Several reasons, but the major one i understand is that they have said the Catholic theology is able to encompass and answer all their doubts. For me, therein lies the problem that in trying to advance her ecumenical agenda, the Roman Catholic Church has opened its arms so wide to embrace everyone that it might end up strangling itself.
SO, not here to add fire to ur discussion (debate?), but if u could point me somewhere.
The Protestant Reformation did not say every Christian can now interpret the Bible on his own per se, after all if you know history, the Protestant fathers also burned people at the stake for heresy. See lah, the reason why you have megachurches with questionable doctrine is precisely that.
Yes, some good ole traditions should have carried on, dont you think? After all, we learnt from the very best... =)
The Protestant Reformation certainly didnt aim to increase heresy, but it definitely allowed the laymen free access to the Bible, instead of limiting it to an authority that went unchecked (similarities anyone?)
In fact, maybe it became too lax and benevolent that questionable doctrine began to thrive.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and yet, am i wrong to say that christians who love God will goto church, but christians who goes to church, may not love God?
How subjective can this be.... How to know if I love God or not? If I don't love God, why do I go to a Church for? No better place and things to do?
That's one of your problem.......you are not proving anything from here. Just because you think a person goes to Church but does not love God does not mean that he does not love God! Because it's between him and God - why be kpo?
You also said those who felt God's love, their faith will lead them to good works right?
How about those who have not ? Their faith will not lead them to do anything? Is that what you are saying? Or need to change something?
Then, will these people fit into those who Jesus said he will reject - using the sower parables? Or is there something else? Or need to combine a few parables?
Then, does that mean that Christians may not be saved?
If not, what happen to this group who go to Church but do not love God when they die? God still save?
If yes, then love God or not has no bearing.
If no, then it means you confirm christians may not be saved.....
And why they are not saved? Because they have yet to love God which will allow their faith to lead them to good works (which in your words happened only when one felt God's love)? Or am I wrong?
Is the difference here not :
1. Go church love God - faith leading to good works - SAVED
2. Go church but no love God yet - faith did not lead to good works - NOT SAVED
or maybe now, we need to add that their faith is not strong enough?
Or what other things you are having in mind from your vast experiences?
Or do I have to tell you what I think (based on my personal preference) and someone else also tell you what they think (based on their personal preference).......
Does it matter what you think, I think and he think ???? Or Does what Jesus think is what that matters?
Hope this have answered your Go church bla bla bla.....theory...once and for all and hope you understand why it is not making your point valid at all.
Did I say you are wrong ? NO - just did not see how it help in your cause. In fact, you helped to explain what I said - which is why we felt you are confused!
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:unfortunately, just like everybody else, what little i know is from what Iearnt. So i guess i'll just fall back on the only one thing I can believe in. the wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is eternal life, He who has the son, has life, he who doesn't have the son, doesn't have life.
and i know i've been very testy of late. i tried to bow out, but apparently, coffeeboy here insulted my effort by smirking and commenting that it was a great way to escape an arguement i cannot support with the bible. sucks right? no choice lor. got to go down swinging if i have to. besides it is a great outlet for me to trash out everything with catholics, since i've got a very big personal grudge against them. can't let it drop yet.
We are here to learn - not argue and call names and insult each other. I certainly have no wish to insult you and I made that clear. I did not brand you....you did it yourself. So, don't blame "coffeboy" because he did not even participate in this discussion.
I can sense that you are very passionate about our faith but you need to examine the doctrine you are following. Cheap doctrines is the easiest to "sell" so that more came come and pay tithes.....by the way, Catholic Church very cheap - no tithe one but doctrine very demanding (not to us)......
I told you to read the other thread on evangelising to see how ironical it becomes. A good intention to spread God's love ended up having people hating christians? Should we not take a step back to reflect that maybe we did something not so acceptable to others? Can we forced others to believe our faith just because we believed and want to save them?
The more you hate catholic, the more you should find out about them (like I said in reply to your other post)......takan them.....but need to find out all the bad things they do, lousy doctrine they follow, funny prayers etc.....and how they never reach out to others etc....
Then you can condem them and let go all your frustrations....and they have no answer to you because you know what you are talking about....
Go join their RCIA (free and no obligation plus free coffe break). Every week, you can question the priest with difficult questions, takan him left right center......not happy, just walk out......no hard feelings.
But be very careful because God is so powerful that you may end up another Catholic. So stay awake........many Protestants tried that and now Catholic liao....some did manage to "siam".
Catholic Church cannot be the oldest surviving Church in the world without reasons..... Protestant Churches have their roots in Catholic Churches as well....you hate them but go to THIS LINK and see what other Protestants brother and sisters of yours are doing exactly opposite of you - for 100 years liao.
Time to re-think your actions lah....boy
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:How subjective can this be.... How to know if I love God or not? If I don't love God, why do I go to a Church for? No better place and things to do?
That's one of your problem.......you are not proving anything from here. Just because you think a person goes to Church but does not love God does not mean that he does not love God! Because it's between him and God - why be kpo?
You also said those who felt God's love, their faith will lead them to good works right?
How about those who have not ? Their faith will not lead them to do anything? Is that what you are saying? Or need to change something?
Then, will these people fit into those who Jesus said he will reject - using the sower parables? Or is there something else? Or need to combine a few parables?
Then, does that mean that Christians may not be saved?
If not, what happen to this group who go to Church but do not love God when they die? God still save?
If yes, then love God or not has no bearing.
If no, then it means you confirm christians may not be saved.....
And why they are not saved? Because they have yet to love God which will allow their faith to lead them to good works (which in your words happened only when one felt God's love)? Or am I wrong?
Is the difference here not :
1. Go church love God - faith leading to good works - SAVED
2. Go church but no love God yet - faith did not lead to good works - NOT SAVED
or maybe now, we need to add that their faith is not strong enough?
Or what other things you are having in mind from your vast experiences?
Or do I have to tell you what I think (based on my personal preference) and someone else also tell you what they think (based on their personal preference).......
Does it matter what you think, I think and he think ???? Or Does what Jesus think is what that matters?
Hope this have answered your Go church bla bla bla.....theory...once and for all and hope you understand why it is not making your point valid at all.
Did I say you are wrong ? NO - just did not see how it help in your cause. In fact, you helped to explain what I said - which is why we felt you are confused!
LOL. It took me the whole day to calm down and stop being pissed. It's interesting the way you answer questions with more questions, and end it off with a sweeping statement about how Jesus would think, but actually, you're pushing what you think as the truth. it's no wonder i would be more "confused" as you put it.
If salvation is based on faith and works, and not faith alone, why does the thief qualify for salvation?
And if the sinful woman, if she didn't come over to wash Jesus' feet with her tears
and annoint Him, would she still be condemned?
What was Jesus thinking, when he allowed the thief into paradise, if he said that works was part of the condition for salvation, and not the result of salvation.
That's why i believe that good works come from the result of salvation. and is not the precondition for salvation.
as for the parable of the sower - the message of the gospel is refered to as the seed. and a person who has accepted the seed, and if his heart is like the good soil, he will become fruitful, and the gospel seeds will multiply. this parable to me seems to speak about fruitfulness, and not about salvation, unlike what you are suggesting.
the first heart, Jesus pointed out as the path, talks about people who heard the message, but refused to believe. The rest of the seeds were sown into soil, which speaks of believers.
so there, we are already told the seperation of believers and non-believers, the saved and the unsaved.
Among the believers, there are 3 types. the rocky soil type, the thorny soil type and the good soil type.
the rocky soil type, the seed grew up. as the gospel takes root. and the person grows as a christian. but due to percercution, and under extreme fire, he couldn't handle the pressure and falls away. we call them backsliders, who knows, they may come back to God, but at this point, the bible says they fell away, and i'll call them unsaved, because they abandoned faith - which brings salvation.
the thorny soil type, the seed grew up, as the gospel takes root, but the cares of the world choked it and it becomes unfruitful. Jesus could have said it died, or something to remotely suggest that it's hellbound. But he chose the word "unfruitful" I'd like to stress, that He didn't use the seed to refer to us, but rather the gospel message. the types of soil refers to us. I'll parallel the phrase used.
Here's an example: The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy
Anyway, as I was saying, the person who has the heart like a thorny patch, receives the gospel, and becomes unfruitful. This time, i don't mean to be offensive, i've taken the whole day to pray abt it, and i seriously seriously feel bad about the name-calling, and i'll explain why i got so upset, but one of the reason why i'm seriously not impressed with catholics is because most of them are like the thorny patch. they are unfruitful. in front of their altar, they gamble, they smoke, they party like they don't know the truth. and it's not just 1 of my friend's family. almost all the catholics i know, are like that. nothing short of being stumbling blocks. everyone complains about city harvest, but so far, with my limited exposure to their christian lifestyle, they are more pious. Sure, they don't like dull music, etc and everything seems like it's related to fun, but they try not to do things which will stumble the rest of the flock. even if they are living in secret sin, they make it a secret, because they are ashamed of it.
ok, moving along, now, lastly we have the good soil, where the seed of the gospel message is received, and he grows big and strong, and the gospel is spreaded along and he grows fruitful, multiplying like crazy. See? The gospel is first received, the believer is first saved, THEN he becomes fruitful, in terms of works or multiplying in numbers.
Jesus didn't say he rejected the soil (us). He just described what happens if the gospel is received by different people with different heart. I think it's wrong to use the parable of the sower to explain that Jesus demands good works as part of the condition for salvation. Because it's not what Jesus is talking about in the first place.
Catholic DO and PRAY. And we DO MORE than you think and PRAY MORE than you think....and I have already explained to you with examples. Missions trips etc...are all good but why don't we also start from where we are? easier right? Or do we have to "show" that we do? NO NEED LAH....
Is that what the bible says? Or your own perspective? Because I think the bible said something like, " Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us." But since you say no need, I guess this is irrelevant. Shrugs. After all, you're the wise catholic who is concerned with what Jesus think, and I'm the one bumbling around, lost and confused. I'll take your word for it.
Oh, just another thing, about bearing fruits. I think before you think about bearing fruits, you should always go back to the heart of salvation, because that's where it all began. Some people are so determined to produce fruits, in fear of losing their salvation, they are doing it the wrong way. In the end, they become empty and dry and upset (just like chibet and myself in that church).
the problem with typing long posts is, i'll forget what i want to say while explaining and elaborating a point. so here's to continue:
of course it's possible to go to church, and not love God. i can be a testament to that. when I was a buddhist. i go to the temple to pray, i had an altar at home which i pray to i think 2 times daily?
i didn't know why i did it, i was just told from young to do it. why would i be in a temple if i didn't love the deity? that's the question you're asking me.
it's the same way with christianity. some christians go to church, because they just do so. it makes no difference actually, it's just something that's part of their weekly timetable. parents go, so i go lor. etc. that's why i said that i can't explain it to you if you don't understand, because either it never struck you, or you really love God so you never knew that there are people who goes to church, but never understood God's love.
I'm currently reaching out (very badly) to a cell member's daughter, who fell to bad ways, got mixed up with very bad company, dropped out of school etc. She loves the church, she's not a christian, but she loves the songs. she zones out during the sermon though. so what is she doing there? I can't say that she loves God, because she doesn't know who God is. She only knows what christians do, but not why they do the things they do. So again, I tell you, that it is very true that Christians who love God, will goto church, but it is not true to reverse the equation. What constitutes as good works? I think to make things simple, I'll just use going to church, going to cell as a starter. After all, christians do that.
Even if she comes, because she likes what we do. How long can such "good works" last? once it becomes routine, and boring, she will just drop out.
Now compare that with a christian, who understands God's love, and with that agape love burning inside him, he will continue to come because he enjoys being in God's presence. A christian, who knows he is already saved, with the right faith, will automatically do "good work".
Let's compare with another friend (weird to call an adult a friend) who became a christian not too long ago. maybe a few years. He admitted readily, that when he went to temples to pray etc. it wasn't because of love. it was more like a trade off. "bless my business, and i will offer you more joss sticks" mentality. and the same person, with the assurance of salvation, and with the love of God in his heart. look at the difference! He's so powerful with the knowledge of the Word, he practically swallows the book. Would he have the same passion if he still had that old mentality? "God, if i lead today's bible study, maybe i can score more points to goto heaven".
I'm not saying that salvation by faith is the more comfortable idea, or that it's the better way, based on my perspective. But it is really that way, because firstly, Jesus endorses it. We can see it through his actions to the people he interacted with. Right to the very last person he interacted with. The thief who "got off easy" on grace and faith alone.
And lastly about your proud claims of the catholic roots. How does the catholics continue to survive, you say? LOL, through pro-creation! conveniently, you guys frown on condoms. Either that, or you can confuse young christians like myself, before inviting me to check out the catholic side of the story.
But jokes aside, I think that's just like the jews who justified themselves by using Abraham's name, but was told off by John the Baptist.
Oh, just another thing, about bearing fruits. I think before you think about bearing fruits, you should always go back to the heart of salvation, because that's where it all began. Some people are so determined to produce fruits, in fear of losing their salvation, they are doing it the wrong way. In the end, they become empty and dry and upset (just like chibet and myself in that church).
And just another thing. My excuse(abeit a very bad one) for being inconsiderate and mean is that i don't fear losing my salvation, and i'm abusing this privilege. For someone who insist on works as part of his salvation, you're certainly not showing the fear for burning in purgatory for your subtle insults. Unless you decided to conveniently accept what i have been saying so far as the truth, (if i am not wrong, you need to pay penance for it ). Heh. But if you conveniently do accept what i said, no shame in it. Because the same God who died for my sins and forgave me for my weakness to anger, also did the same for you. And it's not fair if i stay angry at you, if God didn't stay angry at me.
And another thing. If you are going to pay penance for it, then would it be a sincere "good work" if you still burn with anger deep within? Does that good work still count as good work, or just done because you are taught that you need to do it, or if you do it while still hating me, isn't that hypocrisy in a way?
Because i don't know about you, i still am annoyed, but very much less annoyed, with you. but hey, I'm the one who believed that "there is now no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", i know i won't burn for it, and i know over time, as i grow and mature as a christian, the love of God will enable me to forgive totally.
And another thing,
Catholic DO and PRAY. And we DO MORE than you think and PRAY MORE than you think....and I have already explained to you with examples. Missions trips etc...are all good but why don't we also start from where we are? easier right? Or do we have to "show" that we do? NO NEED LAH....
just for exchange of pointers. What are the good works you have done so far for your salvation?
Not for bragging rights, but just to make a point. Little faithless young and immature ol' me, have reached out successfully to (not counting my family) 6 other people.
My parents, led my cousin and aunt to the Lord, and my dad brought the gospel to his old classmates, 3 entire family altogether.
My cousin.. she led my aunt's old friend to the Lord during the wake. And interestingly, nobody taught her to do so, nobody said it was "compulsary or you will goto hell". She did it because she knew that it was what God wanted for believers to do. Good seeds in good soil will bear fruits and multiply isn't it?
These are my "deeds" done with faith. What have you done? And is it enough to grant you salvation? If what I've done is the passing mark for salvation, if you didn't do as much, does it mean you failed the salvation exam? Maybe you didn't do mission trips, maybe you did become fruitful and multiply somewhere closer to home?
And another thing ( this is getting old). Don't assume I never attended any catholic gatherings before. I did - a few times in fact while i was searching for a church to be in, and it's because of some of the flakey stuff a priest and another speaker said, that made me really consider never to become a catholic. Ask me nicely (for both our benefits - benefits me, because i won't stumble as a young weak immature believer, and benefit you because you get to avoid doing penance for not being nice), and i'll tell you what the speakers said. I'm sure if you "really love God", or "want to score more points for salvation", you'd want to clear up any possible misunderstandings that I may have had.
ah, forgot to address this:
If not, what happen to this group who go to Church but do not love God when they die? God still save?
If yes, then love God or not has no bearing.
If no, then it means you confirm christians may not be saved.....
And why they are not saved? Because they have yet to love God which will allow their faith to lead them to good works (which in your words happened only when one felt God's love)? Or am I wrong?
Again, I still say that, salvation is by faith alone. The right faith, will produce love, which produces good works and good fruits driven by love.
If they're going to church but do not know God, then they need to go back to the first point. Which is their faith. What do they believe about the gospel. Has it become so ritualistic, until it becomes like a fairy tale to them? If it is, then they don't have faith anymore isn't it? So, yes, they lost their salvation. If works (in this case, going to church) is a precondition for salvation, they are still doing the good works, and God will accept them, even if the good work is hollow and done not because they want to do it to obey God out of love, which seems flakey.
That's why my mentor often reminds me, "don't be worried about good works. Focus on God's love. As long as you abide in that love, you will always be at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing. Good works will follow, just remember to abide in God's love daily" (need me to dig up bible verse for it? since you're so hard up about biblical word for word accuracy?)
Go join their RCIA (free and no obligation plus free coffe break). Every week, you can question the priest with difficult questions, takan him left right center......not happy, just walk out......no hard feelings.
But be very careful because God is so powerful that you may end up another Catholic. So stay awake........many Protestants tried that and now Catholic liao....some did manage to "siam".
I know. I intend to go and check it out, with a girl *blush* one day, but no time. I know that some teachings are sound, and of course i will benefit. But unfortunately, so much lousy experiences with you folks have left a bitter aftertaste in my mouth. Like what most non-christians usually say of christians, "if your God is so good, why you so ****-ed up?" (i read from another post that you said it's the christians, not the catholic's fault)
And no, I'm not riding on Chin Eng this time. Even if I do, it's no shame really. I'm surprised a big strong believer like yourself would make it sound like it's shameful to be learning from a stronger believer than himself and support his statements in defence of his faith. (need to do penance for this? I mean, that jibe about me having to ride on Chin Eng is so obviously meant to stab at me.)
Anyway bottomline is. If what you say is true (and please, enough with the "it doesn't matter what we both think" statement. I already elaborated with bible verses above), and that good works is a precondition for salvation, the whole world can just go to hell right now. Because everyday you're going to do something wrong, everyday you're going to forget to pay penance for some minor sins which slipped your mind, everyday you're going to piss someone off, or be pissed at someone. You'll be too busy trying to pull your butt out of the fryer to be effective in being fruitful.
But if what I say is true, and supported by the Word and proven by my family's life, that good works is the result of salvation, then. Well, then nothing actually, except maybe Jesus can now effectively use you, since you're now more focused in the family business of leading the lost home, instead of saving yourself.
So maybe, just maybe, it's you who need to reconsider your position. Keep an open mind? I mean, yeah, I'm young, I'm immature, what do I know right? compared with the towering wisdom of the catholic chruch. Maybe Jesus do actually use the fools to shame the wise, the weak to shame the strong?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:(i read from another post that you said it's the christians, not the catholic's fault)
When and where did I say that? You have to know that when I say Christians, it means chjristians of all denominations......and those who claim they have no denomination.
Originally posted by Icemoon:I find it weird many Christians are not proud of their own denominational tradition. Those megachurch don't say lah, what tradition do they have?
One baptist told me in EH last time, they emphasize a lot on studying the word of God. And he is very proud of that.
When I read about the Wesley brothers, I was like wow. One can preach, the other can compose. Today, if you open your hymnal, you find hymns composed by Charles Wesley. Aren't you proud of that? Just like I think hokkiens should be proud of hokkien hay mee, teochew for their porridge.
actually sometimes I am in a dilemma, when a member of a certain denomination boasts of that denomination he can seen as being a blind follower, when a member of a certain denomination don't exactly follow the teachings, he is not seen to be proud of the denomination hmmm.... seems fault is being found at every turn.
...but back to the point, wherein did you find me saying that I am not proud of the Wesley brothers. If I am not proud of the Methodist church would I have stayed there for more than twenty years? All I saying is: me being a Christian is more than me being a Methodist because while a denomination is strong, it is not perfect. So when I am in the Methodist church I do not necessary conform to all the standards. Also in this case, YOU are trying to label me with something which I think has no relevance on whether I am Methodist or not. Beyond that, after labelling me, you compare me with my church and say that my "type" clashes with the "type" that is traditionally associated with the Methodists founders.
To me, that is absolutely stupid and unnecessary, it's like finding out that you are a libra or a leo or a scorpio.... so what?
Originally posted by Icemoon:No lah, not higher education. It is enlightening for me to [try to] understand the various theologies.
Don't say all the studying no use one ok. Try following the Reformed argument for their ordo salutis, you'd be impressed. I can tell you honestly I am. I'm impressed not because they managed to come out with theories like monergism, but with their staunch belief in the sovereignty of God.
Again, putting words into my mouth again. When did I say that studying is no use? I am saying what about those who do not have the benefit of such higher studies? Does it mean that because they are not privilege to learn those things, they cannot attain salvation, or that they will still be lost in the Lord?
Originally posted by Icemoon:So God is very much sovereign. He determines who are saved, who are not by the elects. In fact, according to the covenant of redemption:
So Christ died for his sheeps or the goats or all animals? I think you guys were talking about sheeps and goats. Perhaps if you understand the Arminian or Reformed perspective, things will be clearer.
Actually to me, whether God wants me in heaven or not, at the end of my journey is totally unimportant. He is God and He can do whatever He wants with me as He sees fit. It does not matter anymore.
Originally posted by malcom:Regarding Mat 5:29-30, you may be tempted to think that it should not be taken seriously because Jesus ask us to tear out our eyes, but as MrLimKopi said, you miss the real message. The real message is that Jesus is trying to tell us it is very serious to sin, whether you are believer or non believer.
There is a story in the miracle by Padre Pio, I know you may not take Catholic saint seriously, but if you have open mind, find out the message behind this story from Pietruccio case and compare with Gemma Di Giorgi case, then you see that I mean.
There are Protestants who say the miracles in Catholic saint to be demonic, but as Jesus tell us, just look at the fruit.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Saints/padre-pio11c.htm
you are totally confused, when did I say that the Matt 5 is NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Please find my quotation if that exists.
I said that Matt is a parable and parables are not to be taken literally, I am sure even you know that there is a difference between taken seriously and taking literally.
However, you have said on May 22, 4.17 pm
Originally posted by malcom:And for Matt 5:29-30, unfortunatelly, Jesus means it literally. I can back it up, but it is a Catholic thing, if you don't open your mind, you won't believe it.
If this be true, why isn't the world filled with half blind Catholics.... and don't go around saying Catholics are saintly in their behaviour.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Actually to me, whether God wants me in heaven or not, at the end of my journey is totally unimportant. He is God and He can do whatever He wants with me as He sees fit. It does not matter anymore.
Unimportant? The prospect of a one way ticket to land of eternal BBQ unimportant?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:Is that what the bible says? Or your own perspective? Because I think the bible said something like, " Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us." But since you say no need, I guess this is irrelevant. Shrugs. After all, you're the wise catholic who is concerned with what Jesus think, and I'm the one bumbling around, lost and confused. I'll take your word for it.
I take that to means you agree unless I read you wrong again. I don't know what you mean by "But since you say no need" - are you not just echoing what I say ?
Originally posted by Creation1656:
Unimportant? The prospect of a one way ticket to land of eternal BBQ unimportant?
yes, but it's a personal conviction.
i serve the Lord as much as possible, I do not serve the Lord for the rewards of the afterlife.
God can do to me whatever he wants. It does not matter to me - that's why it is unimportant.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:Jesus didn't say he rejected the soil (us). He just described what happens if the gospel is received by different people with different heart. I think it's wrong to use the parable of the sower to explain that Jesus demands good works as part of the condition for salvation. Because it's not what Jesus is talking about in the first place.
Ha..happy that you says that this is the wrong parable to use as you are the one who bring this in....go re-read the past post.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Oh, just another thing, about bearing fruits. I think before you think about bearing fruits, you should always go back to the heart of salvation, because that's where it all began. Some people are so determined to produce fruits, in fear of losing their salvation, they are doing it the wrong way. In the end, they become empty and dry and upset (just like chibet and myself in that church).
It is not a Catholic teaching that we need to fear losing our salvation..... If you did happen to have such problem, either you are in the wrong place or you did not understand the teaching.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:LOL. It took me the whole day to calm down and stop being pissed. It's interesting the way you answer questions with more questions, and end it off with a sweeping statement about how Jesus would think, but actually, you're pushing what you think as the truth. it's no wonder i would be more "confused" as you put it.
If salvation is based on faith and works, and not faith alone, why does the thief qualify for salvation?
And if the sinful woman, if she didn't come over to wash Jesus' feet with her tears
and annoint Him, would she still be condemned?What was Jesus thinking, when he allowed the thief into paradise, if he said that works was part of the condition for salvation, and not the result of salvation.
That's why i believe that good works come from the result of salvation. and is not the precondition for salvation.
Now you accuse me with answering questions with more questions? I said salvatiuon is by faith and deeds...you ask for quotes (you asked for quotes on 17.05.08) and I gave to you.....You came back with more quotes (which you now says is wrong to use - the sower one), personal opinions, acussations, cursing, bring in dead friends, uncles and trying also to drag my family in etc...
Finally, you says I am trying to push what I think is the truth. I did not force Chin Eng, did I ? I understood where he is coming from.....I back up what I said but he did not agree because he had reasons to.
You? Confused (now you say is my fault), angry, acussations, unfounded allegations based on your personal views etc.... Brother, you have attacked the Catholics in a very personal way but I have never attack you or your denominations, I don't even care where you are from.
If you have not responded in the way you did, the discussions would have ended.
I gave you the quote on the last judgement. Chin Eng respond with his arguments on that.....you are asking about the thief and sinful woman? You see now why it becomes long and confusing for you ?
Did icemoon not tell you earlier?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:you are totally confused, when did I say that the Matt 5 is NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Please find my quotation if that exists.
I said that Matt is a parable and parables are not to be taken literally, I am sure even you know that there is a difference between taken seriously and taking literally.
However, you have said on May 22, 4.17 pm
If this be true, why isn't the world filled with half blind Catholics.... and don't go around saying Catholics are saintly in their behaviour.
I did't mean you as you Chin Eng, if you see most of my post I use 'we'. These whole things for me is not about self righteousness and telling people that all of you are sinners. We are all sinners. What I am trying to say here is, look, here is the bible passages, let's examine it together and see what it is trying to say using our ability in reasoning. But if you think that I am wrong, and insist that it is a parable, it is ok.
I always try to explan what Catholic Church stance on this, but I never say that we the Catholic people are better than Protestant. But surprisingly, both Chin Eng and dumbdumb! seems to take it personally and trying to prove that Protestants are more righteous than us Catholics. Why not leave the decision on who is more rightous, to our Father in Heaven? And let us concentrate on discovering what the God say in the bible and try our best to do it.
now become christian vs roman catholics liao
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:And lastly about your proud claims of the catholic roots. How does the catholics continue to survive, you say? LOL, through pro-creation! conveniently, you guys frown on condoms. Either that, or you can confuse young christians like myself,
I was a convert.....so are the more than 1000 that was baptised earlier this Easter and many Easters before. How did condom come into play? Know your facts first brother...
By the way, RCIA is about 10 months and to get baptised, you need to go through it.....if you do not agree with the teachings, you do not need to get baptised and no hard feelings.....
Catholic do not only disallow condoms, they also disallow pre-marital sex. Sex is only for married couples and between the husband and wife only..... Going Geylang (married or not) is unacceptable. Does this sounds like wrong morals to you?
Did bible says so or I say so? Go find out yourself since you already condem this...
I told you this because you accuse that Catholic do not evangelise and reach out. This is proof that what you said is not true. Now, you throw in a new twist to this. Wake up lah....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:And no, I'm not riding on Chin Eng this time. Even if I do, it's no shame really. I'm surprised a big strong believer like yourself would make it sound like it's shameful to be learning from a stronger believer than himself and support his statements in defence of his faith. (need to do penance for this? I mean, that jibe about me having to ride on Chin Eng is so obviously meant to stab at me.)
No, there is nothing wrong......and I am not using it to stab at you (you said so - AGAIN!) I said that because you keep coming back with other issues instead of staying focus on our discussions - the quote you ask which I gave you - The Last Judgement!
You try to make fun of penance? You can if you know what that is all about. If not, suggest you find out first so that it can become more funny.......to all of us.
Yo Bro DumbDumb, no point continuing liao lah... I can see you got a thing about Roman Catholics. I have MY thing against them too but in a forum, its a lose lose situation discussing all these really. You have your point, they have their points. Be confident in your salvation and when Christ comes again, we will know whose in and whose out. Victory now is no victory on judgement day.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
...but back to the point, wherein did you find me saying that I am not proud of the Wesley brothers. If I am not proud of the Methodist church would I have stayed there for more than twenty years? All I saying is: me being a Christian is more than me being a Methodist because while a denomination is strong, it is not perfect. So when I am in the Methodist church I do not necessary conform to all the standards. Also in this case, YOU are trying to label me with something which I think has no relevance on whether I am Methodist or not. Beyond that, after labelling me, you compare me with my church and say that my "type" clashes with the "type" that is traditionally associated with the Methodists founders.To me, that is absolutely stupid and unnecessary, it's like finding out that you are a libra or a leo or a scorpio.... so what?
Again, putting words into my mouth again. When did I say that studying is no use? I am saying what about those who do not have the benefit of such higher studies? Does it mean that because they are not privilege to learn those things, they cannot attain salvation, or that they will still be lost in the Lord?
One need not be proud of something, yet he is not ashamed of it. For example, many in BP or Pres church, they are ignorant of their own Reformed roots and traditions. Yet they may stay in that church for 20 years. If they are ignorant of their own roots, how to be proud of it?
About your type clashing with the type of your founders, fair enough. One doesn't have to conform to all standards to belong to a denomination, but it is interesting to find out why the founders thought the way they did.
Seriously, who in this forum doesn't have the benefit of higher studies today? The fact you have access to the net means something, isn't it? The context is not about attaining salvation, rather it is about clarifying doubts and learning more about your faith after conversion. The case with dumbdumb here.