No more sin-consicous?
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hey i pm-ed you .. got read or not?Originally posted by Creation1656:Can you quote examples from the OT to support your teachings?? For example, break one commandment and you are "toast" etc. etc. -
Psalm 103:4
4who [the Lord] redeems your life from destruction, who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender merciesÂ…
Four women are mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus. (Matthew 1:1–16) Interestingly, they are not Sarah, Rebekah, Leah or Rachel, wives of the patriarchs of the Old Testament. Instead, they are Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba, women who had morally questionable backgrounds.
Tamar resorted to deception and prostitution to produce children through her father-in-law. Yet, it was from her line, the tribe of Judah, that the Messiah came. (Genesis 3
Rahab was a Gentile and a prostitute in Jericho, who became a believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Joshua 2:1–21) She also became the mother of Boaz, who married Ruth. (Ruth 4:13)
Ruth was a morally upright woman. But as a Moabitess, she was a Gentile and therefore considered unclean. Yet, this Gentile woman became the grandmother of David (Ruth 4:13–17), whom the Jews regard as their greatest king.
Bathsheba committed adultery with David. (2 Samuel 11:4) Later, she gave birth to King Solomon (2 Samuel 12:24), from whose royal line Jesus is descended.
So what is God saying to us here?
He is saying that He is greater than our sins — where sin abounds, His grace abounds much more. (Romans 5:20) Grace is greater than our sins, so that even when the world disqualifies us, God can qualify us to receive His blessings!
God is also saying that He is a God of many chances. These womenÂ’s stories show us that even when our troubles are the result of our own making, they are neither final nor fatal. For when we turn to Him, He can turn our situations around until we see His glory upon us!
Finally, God is saying that He is a God of supernatural positioning. Even when all our earthly connections are gone, the moment we turn to Him, He will find ways to turn our captivity into blessings. As shown in RuthÂ’s life, He can put us at the right place at the right time for that door of blessings to be opened to us!
My friend, don’t look at your natural background or circumstances and be discouraged. Trust the One “who redeems your life from destruction, who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies”!
Last Of all my brother the Journey is between u and the lord. No one can give u all the answer You have to connect with the lord , talk to the lord.He is the all knowing.As u walk along with him , he will give u the answer.All of us will have the same basic revelation about jesus . As each of us walk with the Lord in our life , we will have different revelation that build on basic revelation.U will have ur own , i will have my . i can share with u my just like the post i send u because Love likes to share but i do not want to win my point over u because it is my revelation about jesus. U can look out in the post if there is any in common which serve u and helps in the walk with the lord .Beside u dont need anyone to teach u about the lord . For Jesus say all will know him intimately.Remenber jesus cannot speak from the law for he is above the mercy seat and can only speak from mercy seat. so the way he speaks to u is always lovekindness gentle peace love assurance of ur righteousness and joy tone who rest ur heart. U will know how much God loves u when u finally truly understand how he Love Jesus( in this , im still building on this for knowing is one thing dropping into our heart is another)
God greatly bless u and highly favor u and all the people say AMEN!
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The people whom Jesus had compassion for were the lost and those who were burdened heavily with guilt and sin.
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Actually your analysis is a bit off liao. There is ONE more woman you miss out. If you include this woman, then your analysis starts to break down.Originally posted by bernardgoh:[color=blue]Four women are mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus. (Matthew 1:1–16) Interestingly, they are not Sarah, Rebekah, Leah or Rachel, wives of the patriarchs of the Old Testament. Instead, they are Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba, women who had morally questionable backgrounds.
There is no need to spell out the name .. all Catholics know her.
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Your analysis is off liao.Originally posted by bernardgoh:So what is God saying to us here?
He is saying that He is greater than our sins — where sin abounds, His grace abounds much more. (Romans 5:20) Grace is greater than our sins, so that even when the world disqualifies us, God can qualify us to receive His blessings!
God is also saying that He is a God of many chances. These womenÂ’s stories show us that even when our troubles are the result of our own making, they are neither final nor fatal. For when we turn to Him, He can turn our situations around until we see His glory upon us!
Finally, God is saying that He is a God of supernatural positioning. Even when all our earthly connections are gone, the moment we turn to Him, He will find ways to turn our captivity into blessings. As shown in RuthÂ’s life, He can put us at the right place at the right time for that door of blessings to be opened to us!
Don't misquote biblical examples leh .. very bad you know.
Your analysis is off if we use the example of Bathsheba. I don't remember Bathsheba turn to God leh? You might as well say Jews, at one time or another, turn to God. Very duh right? -
Originally posted by bernardgoh:
Got bluff or not. The gospel claims that Jesus 'daddy' is not human, so how to be 'son' of David??
Bathsheba committed adultery with David. (2 Samuel 11:4) Later, she gave birth to King Solomon (2 Samuel 12:24), from whose royal line Jesus is descended. -
huh .. this one sounds like what the Pharisees challenged Jesus.Originally posted by Creation1656:Got bluff or not. The gospel claims that Jesus 'daddy' is not human, so how to be 'son' of David??
PS: You never check your PM again!! -
Actually I'm a little confused over this issue, what son or not son question.Originally posted by Creation1656:Got bluff or not. The gospel claims that Jesus 'daddy' is not human, so how to be 'son' of David??
If you ask me, based on just your question above, I'd say .. Jesus is son of David through His mother Mary. Can or not? -
1 Corinthians 2:12
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
I believe that you know the story of David the shepherd boy who defeated the 10-foot-tall Goliath, a champion warrior. Ever wondered why David succeeded while the others failed?
DavidÂ’s secret was that he didnÂ’t know defeat because he was not conscious of a God who cannot. He was only conscious of a God who had rescued him time and again.
You can imagine him saying, “One day, I was taking care of my sheep when a lion came and took one of them. I was not willing to settle for that! I went after the lion, caught it by its beard and smote it. The Lord delivered me from the lion’s mouth. On another occasion, a bear came and took one of my flock. I went after the bear and smote it. The Lord delivered me from the bear. This same God, who delivered me from the paws of the lion and bear, will deliver me from this Philistine.” (1 Samuel 17:34–37)
David was conscious of what God had done for him. He knew that God was the one who was for him, loved him, favoured him and gave him success. You can also remind yourself that the same God, who did tremendous things in the past for you, will do the same for you again.
Be like David, who was full of the consciousness of God. Do not be like the army of Israel, who were full of the consciousness of the words of Goliath. I believe that they must have talked about GoliathÂ’s threats, rehearsed his words and, as a result, filled their hearts with fear and trembling. (1 Samuel 17:11, 24)
David 's name is known as Beloved represented Israel to conquered Golaith who is known as the stripped at the calvary. so Is jesus the beloved son of God ?and who do u think the Golaith is ?the devil ! therefore David picture shows that the beloved son of God who will represent u and i will later conqueor the bigger devil.if u understand david story , u will understand why is jesus call son of David .
My friend, donÂ’t feed on the negative words of man or the devil. It will only make you anxious and fearful. Feed on GodÂ’s Word by reading the Bible and listening to messages about who you are in Christ and what He has done for you. Pump yourself up with GodÂ’s Word until you are filled with the consciousness of God, that you might know the things that have been freely given to you by God! -
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Originally posted by bernardgoh:
So what is God saying to us here?
He is saying that He is greater than our sins — where sin abounds, His grace abounds much more. (Romans 5:20) Grace is greater than our sins, so that even when the world disqualifies us, God can qualify us to receive His blessings!
God is also saying that He is a God of many chances. These womenÂ’s stories show us that even when our troubles are the result of our own making, they are neither final nor fatal. For when we turn to Him, He can turn our situations around until we see His glory upon us!
Finally, God is saying that He is a God of supernatural positioning. Even when all our earthly connections are gone, the moment we turn to Him, He will find ways to turn our captivity into blessings. As shown in RuthÂ’s life, He can put us at the right place at the right time for that door of blessings to be opened to us!
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Your analysis is off liao.
Don't misquote biblical examples leh .. very bad you know.
Your analysis is off if we use the example of Bathsheba. I don't remember Bathsheba turn to God leh? You might as well say Jews, at one time or another, turn to God. Very duh right?
WEll U dont have snubbed at me!Remember We are one? You seemed to forget who u are in christ!the bible is not abook . it takes th holy spirit to reveal to u the secret of bible. if one is always seeking to be critical and cynnical, he does not benefit. when i share with this posts , i am the one benefit the most, just like when u snubbed someone , u are the one benefit the most.. Jesus say When u know the truth, the truth will set u free. Regarding Bathsheba , i do know what it means .But you intend to out to seek my fault just like pharisee seeking fault with jesus.should i be so nice to u to tell u the case of bathsheba when u ahve snubbed me like this just like should jesus be so nice to the pharisee to tell them the truth in parable when u are not really interested to fill up ur soul with joy and love ?Why do u think we are call as son and daughter of abraham just as jesus call as son of david? do u really think the bible call we are really the physical son n daughter of abraham in this physical realm?
there is a chinese parable
there is an old chinese parable about su tong po and a monk story. they have a discuss . su ask the monk " what do u think of me " the monk say " i look u as in the image of buddha"Su laugh at monk and ask " what do u think i think of u" the monk " what do u think of me"Su snubbed and laugh " i think u are the most ungly person in the world"Su laugh off his belly
when he got back home , he tell his sister about the this to show his brillance, the sister silently snubbed him" dont u understand what the master mean" when the master look at u, he is seeing u in image of buddha for he see himself is in the image of buddha. but when u laugh at the monk and teased the monk look the most ugly person , it is a reflection of yourself
Do u think these posts is make by me ? i dont have this kind of ability men!this glory goes to God. he is the one giving the answer! i dont even know why i want to answer here.. i have tell god not make me answer anymore. i dont want deprive my positve energy which i just recovered . in fact just refilling up my guage -
Even the Bereans checked the Apostle Paul's teachings against Scripture. Luckily the passage was familiar to me, having read a commentary a few days ago.Originally posted by bernardgoh:WEll U dont have snubbed at me!Remember We are one? You seemed to forget who u are in christ!the bible is not abook . it takes th holy spirit to reveal to u the secret of bible. if one is always seeking to be critical and cynnical, he does not benefit.
What benefit is there if you misquote biblical examples to further your agenda? I believe I did point out a very valid question - there were FIVE women but you pointed out only FOUR.
What a joke. You posted so many lovely-dovey commentaries on the Christian faith, then in your reply to me suddenly you become so unlovely.
What? Can't practise what you preach? -
Aiya .. relax lah .. why get so worked up?Originally posted by bernardgoh:Do u think these posts is make by me ? i dont have this kind of ability men!this glory goes to God. he is the one giving the answer! i dont even know why i want to answer here.. i have tell god not make me answer anymore. i dont want deprive my positve energy which i just recovered . in fact just refilling up my guage
So how're things on top? Long time never celebrate sedar with Elijah and Moshe liao, wonder how are they getting on? Oh ya, tell the four gorgeous ladies - tamar, rahab, ruth and bathsheba - if they lack a mahjong player can call for me. Also give my regards to Ezekiel .. tell him I miss his kabbalah sermons .. -
Ok lah, don't say I ba4 dao4 or what, allow me to give my comments, point out the flaws of your analysis and finally suggest a better alternative.Originally posted by bernardgoh:Psalm 103:4
4who [the Lord] redeems your life from destruction, who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender merciesÂ…
Four women are mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus. (Matthew 1:1–16) Interestingly, they are not Sarah, Rebekah, Leah or Rachel, wives of the patriarchs of the Old Testament. Instead, they are Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba, women who had morally questionable backgrounds.
Tamar resorted to deception and prostitution to produce children through her father-in-law. Yet, it was from her line, the tribe of Judah, that the Messiah came. (Genesis 3
Rahab was a Gentile and a prostitute in Jericho, who became a believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Joshua 2:1–21) She also became the mother of Boaz, who married Ruth. (Ruth 4:13)
Ruth was a morally upright woman. But as a Moabitess, she was a Gentile and therefore considered unclean. Yet, this Gentile woman became the grandmother of David (Ruth 4:13–17), whom the Jews regard as their greatest king.
Bathsheba committed adultery with David. (2 Samuel 11:4) Later, she gave birth to King Solomon (2 Samuel 12:24), from whose royal line Jesus is descended.
So what is God saying to us here?
He is saying that He is greater than our sins — where sin abounds, His grace abounds much more. (Romans 5:20) Grace is greater than our sins, so that even when the world disqualifies us, God can qualify us to receive His blessings!
God is also saying that He is a God of many chances. These womenÂ’s stories show us that even when our troubles are the result of our own making, they are neither final nor fatal. For when we turn to Him, He can turn our situations around until we see His glory upon us!
Finally, God is saying that He is a God of supernatural positioning. Even when all our earthly connections are gone, the moment we turn to Him, He will find ways to turn our captivity into blessings. As shown in RuthÂ’s life, He can put us at the right place at the right time for that door of blessings to be opened to us!
The way I see it, you are trying to find examples to fit your point. Unfortunately your examples don't really fit your point, and when you take into account the missing woman, the commentary starts to fall apart.
Firstly you said the four women had morally questionable background. While not the best description, it is still ok, I can still get what you mean. BUT how about the fifth woman? Ah ha .. does this fifth woman have morally questionable background?
Secondly you repeatedly make the point that as long we turn to God, it doesn't matter what is our background, we will still be accepted and blessed. While it is true for Ruth and Rahab, there is no indication that it is true for Tamar and Bathsheba also. Especially for the case of Tamar, there is *no need* for her (from her perspective) to turn to God. The account is quite clear that it was Judah who let her down. For the case of Bathsheba, Scripture does not record her turning to God but that the child from that illicit affair died (Solomon was conceived later). Once again, bring in the fifth woman, doesn't fit right? Try to subject her to the same analysis, things start to fall apart. She is like the odd one out.
Thirdly, and this is interesting, the reason you gave for Ruth is that because she was a gentile, she was unclean. You claim that she is a morally upright woman, but then at the beginning you label four of them as having *morally* questionable background. A bit contradicting right? But don't worry, actually you *almost* got it, if you read Scripture more carefully, Ruth actually did something that is not very moral. More on this below.
Taking into account all the three points and by thinking a little, there is this nagging feeling that somehow your example doesn't fit your points. I mean your points can still be valid, but they are not meant to be illustrated through the four/five women in Matthew's genealogy. In other words, I don't think you captured the gist, the essence of the author's intention.
I'm not sure about you, but I think it is more important to understand what Scripture is telling us, than trying to make Scripture fit your agenda. Sorry for the harsh criticism, but I hope as one who rever Scripture as the Word of God, you share my sentiment.
Shalom.
PS: reply getting long, I continue in another post. -
*continued from previous post.*Originally posted by bernardgoh:Four women are mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus. (Matthew 1:1–16) Interestingly, they are not Sarah, Rebekah, Leah or Rachel, wives of the patriarchs of the Old Testament. Instead, they are Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba, women who had morally questionable backgrounds.
Tamar resorted to deception and prostitution to produce children through her father-in-law. Yet, it was from her line, the tribe of Judah, that the Messiah came. (Genesis 3
Rahab was a Gentile and a prostitute in Jericho, who became a believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Joshua 2:1–21) She also became the mother of Boaz, who married Ruth. (Ruth 4:13)
Ruth was a morally upright woman. But as a Moabitess, she was a Gentile and therefore considered unclean. Yet, this Gentile woman became the grandmother of David (Ruth 4:13–17), whom the Jews regard as their greatest king.
Bathsheba committed adultery with David. (2 Samuel 11:4) Later, she gave birth to King Solomon (2 Samuel 12:24), from whose royal line Jesus is descended.
Actually you *almost* got it. Let's ignore what you wrote later about the grace of God, God blessing those who turn to Him etc. Let's just concentrate on this part - the facts.
The fact is that, and this is almost undisputable, these four women indeed had "morally questionable background". For each woman, Scripture clearly records their immoral actions!
And what is this immoral action? It is .......... *drum rolls* ............. SEX! No, not the sacred sex between husband and wife, but sex with people they are not supposed to have sex with. Call them whatever you want, they are just not your virtuous next door girl.
You almost got it. You are certainly right about Tamar, Rahab and Bathsheba. They had immoral sex, but what about Ruth? Let's examine Scripture:Ruth 3 (NIV)
I'm sorry .. do you call that a virtuous action? Jialat siah .. I hope girls will not listen to this advice from Naomi; no decent girl will propose to a man like that. Ruth is practically forcing Boaz to wed her, using this literally 'underhand' method!
1 One day Naomi her mother-in-law said to her, "My daughter, should I not try to find a home [a] for you, where you will be well provided for? 2 Is not Boaz, with whose servant girls you have been, a kinsman of ours? Tonight he will be winnowing barley on the threshing floor. 3 Wash and perfume yourself, and put on your best clothes. Then go down to the threshing floor, but don't let him know you are there until he has finished eating and drinking. 4 When he lies down, note the place where he is lying. Then go and uncover his feet and lie down. He will tell you what to do."
5 "I will do whatever you say," Ruth answered. 6 So she went down to the threshing floor and did everything her mother-in-law told her to do.
7 When Boaz had finished eating and drinking and was in good spirits, he went over to lie down at the far end of the grain pile. Ruth approached quietly, uncovered his feet and lay down. 8 In the middle of the night something startled the man, and he turned and discovered a woman lying at his feet.
9 "Who are you?" he asked.
"I am your servant Ruth," she said. "Spread the corner of your garment over me, since you are a kinsman-redeemer."
10 "The LORD bless you, my daughter," he replied. "This kindness is greater than that which you showed earlier: You have not run after the younger men, whether rich or poor. 11 And now, my daughter, don't be afraid. I will do for you all you ask. All my fellow townsmen know that you are a woman of noble character. 12 Although it is true that I am near of kin, there is a kinsman-redeemer nearer than I. 13 Stay here for the night, and in the morning if he wants to redeem, good; let him redeem. But if he is not willing, as surely as the LORD lives I will do it. Lie here until morning."
14 So she lay at his feet until morning, but got up before anyone could be recognized; and he said, "Don't let it be known that a woman came to the threshing floor."
This Baoz also very funny, he already knew there is a better candidate than him in redeeming Ruth, but he still happily told her to lie with him until morning! I mean, logically if he wants Ruth to leave his bed nest since he does not have right to her body yet, then shouldn't Ruth leave in the middle of the night? Hmm .. maybe at night dark she will get lost ah. -
Hello friends, It is so interesting to see that the discussion on the mentioned topic has came such a long way, touching on the issue of morality too. I do agreed with Icemoon analysis on the four women mentioned in the bible. He had gave a practical analysis on their life which clearly spelts out the stand on biblical morality. Apparently for bernardgoh, my personal opinons is that he got his biblical undertstanding from some preachers from Africa or had read or listen to some preaching from that region.
I believe this thread is discuss about the mentioned topic in a practical sense, which means we have personally experience and encounter the situation b4. Frankly speaking, anyone can read, understand and quote from the bible. I believe there are many non-believers who takes on bible knowledge (O levels), divinity (A levels) and did very well for the paper because they read, memorize and study it. But to relate and quote the bible at the right time and as well to edify requires a certain time of walk with the Lord. Apparently, our friend just cut and paste from some where and gave a sweet talk about our christian life and react differently from where he quoted. We might have to give a serious thought on that. -
Hey Icemoon, have you came across the idea of "sexual hospitality", the custom of sexually pleasing a stranger guest? And that it was practiced by the semitic tribes up until the Mosaic Law was developed?Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm sorry .. do you call that a virtuous action? Jialat siah .. I hope girls will not listen to this advice from Naomi; no decent girl will propose to a man like that. Ruth is practically forcing Boaz to wed her, using this literally 'underhand' method!
This Baoz also very funny, he already knew there is a better candidate than him in redeeming Ruth, but he still happily told her to lie with him until morning! I mean, logically if he wants Ruth to leave his bed nest since he does not have right to her body yet, then shouldn't Ruth leave in the middle of the night? Hmm .. maybe at night dark she will get lost ah.
Not really reprehensible, what the women did, given that world-view. (Sex was far more liberal back then :lol
http://www.lectio.unibe.ch/03_2/gur.pdf -
Sorry to interupt. I dont mean to cause another argument here.Originally posted by Icemoon:Even the Bereans checked the Apostle Paul's teachings against Scripture. Luckily the passage was familiar to me, having read a commentary a few days ago.
What benefit is there if you misquote biblical examples to further your agenda? I believe I did point out a very valid question - there were FIVE women but you pointed out only FOUR.
What a joke. You posted so many lovely-dovey commentaries on the Christian faith, then in your reply to me suddenly you become so unlovely.
What? Can't practise what you preach?
I think your opinions of his towards yours is naturally bias towards yourself, which is against him.
Since it is very much subjective, to me, i dont think that benard has been unlovely towards you. In fact, there is something that he said(or indirectly), which, from my point of view is quite true, and that is you seem to be too rational(li3 xing4). You forget that God and personal experiences are not rational after all, they are emotional (gan3 xing4)
Yes, being too reliant on emotions is a dangerous thing. -
Are you sure? Please then explain what you have said in the light of these verses?Originally posted by bernardgoh:For Jesus say all will know him intimately.Remenber jesus cannot speak from the law for he is above the mercy seat and can only speak from mercy seat. so the way he speaks to u is always lovekindness gentle peace love assurance of ur righteousness and joy tone who rest ur heart.
Matthew 19:17
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Yeshua(Jesus) replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Luke 18:19-21 (New International Version)
19"Why do you call me good?" Yeshau answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'[a]"
21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. -
Why does everyone ignore the FIFTH woman mentioned in the bible?Originally posted by latterrain:Hello friends, It is so interesting to see that the discussion on the mentioned topic has came such a long way, touching on the issue of morality too. I do agreed with Icemoon analysis on the four women mentioned in the bible. He had gave a practical analysis on their life which clearly spelts out the stand on biblical morality.
If the four women somehow did immoral things, what about the fifth? -
Shouldn't it be because I am gan3 xing4, I am personally biased towards him?Originally posted by davidche:Since it is very much subjective, to me, i dont think that benard has been unlovely towards you. In fact, there is something that he said(or indirectly), which, from my point of view is quite true, and that is you seem to be too rational(li3 xing4). You forget that God and personal experiences are not rational after all, they are emotional (gan3 xing4) -
can you send me back in your time machine?Originally posted by Gauze:Hey Icemoon, have you came across the idea of "sexual hospitality", the custom of sexually pleasing a stranger guest? And that it was practiced by the semitic tribes up until the Mosaic Law was developed?
Not really reprehensible, what the women did, given that world-view. (Sex was far more liberal back then :lol
http://www.lectio.unibe.ch/03_2/gur.pdf