Ever Virgin???
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who the heck is Karlstadt?
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perhaps we should start a new thread, Eck vs Luther ... cause we are out of topic here.
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I dunno who is Johann Oecolampadius.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Duh...a catholic theologican. but he was not sent by the Pope to counter Luther. The only person I am aware of being sent to counter Luther was Cardinal Cajetan who wasnt successful at all.
Johann Eck is a brilliant catholic theologican who challenged the Reformers himself in 1519.
He destroyed Zwingli theologies on couple of occasions. He was victoriius in defending the doctrine of transubstitution with Thomas Murner against Johann Oecolampadius in 1526.
Like vince said, Johann is representing the Pope (the Catholic Church). To declare Luther a winner will be to admit the Pope is wrong.
Please .. have some sense when you are evaluating historical events. -
1a)Originally posted by vince69:English language, sentance structure.
1) read the whole statement as a whole.
a) Eck against Karlstadt, Eck was forced to abandon his position, yet still declare a nominal victory (wonder how someone who gave up his position can be declare a winner).
b) Eck against Luther, the statement here says, the result was far less sucessful than, meaning Eck perform even far worst than when he had done with Karlstadt, and the reason given for this poor performance is that Luther , was his superior in memory, acumen, and learning.
so this admission of Luther being superior is not before, but rather its after the debate.
2) History, Eck was sent by the Pope to debate with Luther, meaning he represent the Pope, the highest authority in the Church.
Don't give face to Eck, also must give face to the Pope he is representing.
Its human for all of them declared Johann Eck was victorious, I seriously anyone of them dare to go against the Pope (represented by Eck) and declare Luther the winner (unless they also want to be assossiate with Luther and get themselves excommunicated).
Did u read the paragraph before:
Karlstadt then proceeded to prove that good works are to be ascribed to the agency of God alone, whereupon Eck yielded so far as to admit that free will is passive in the beginning of conversion, although he maintained that in course of time it enters into its rights; so that while the entirety of good works originates in God, their accomplishment is not entirely the work of God.
It was not a total abadonment.
1b) Even with Luther superioritu, he could not destroy Eck defence of the Papacy and Penance and Purgatory. Victory laid with Eck. This was perhaps the first victory Eck had against the Reformers. He proceeded on to gain more victories especially against Zwingli.
2) That position is illogical. Johann Eck was not sent by the Pope.He was a German theoligcan not a papal legate. And why would Germans want to give face to the Pope when at the same time they were supporting Luther theologies??? If ur theory is true, no one would support Luther as they feared being anathema. -
Your position is most illogical.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:2) That position is illogical. Johann Eck was not sent by the Pope.He was a German theoligcan not a papal legate. And why would Germans want to give face to the Pope when at the same time they were supporting Luther theologies??? If ur theory is true, no one would support Luther as they feared being anathema.
You are also not papal legate .. so why are you supporting the Pope?
This is confusing.
The judges were affliated with the Pope or Luther?
Eck was affliated with the Pope or Luther?
You make it sound like the judges and Eck were Germans and they were supporting Luther theologies. -
Johann eck is a common man so even his loss will not affect the Papacy. He was not a Papal Legate stamped with Papal authority like Cardinal Cajetan.Originally posted by Icemoon:Your position is most illogical.
You are also not papal legate .. so why are you supporting the Pope?
This is confusing.
The judges were affliated with the Pope or Luther?
Eck was affliated with the Pope or Luther?
You make it sound like the judges and Eck were Germans and they were supporting Luther theologies.
The judges were German Theologicans and both Luther and Ech were german theoligcans so there shouldnt be any bias.
My argument is, if the Germans were so fearful of upsetting the Pope, why were they massed support for Luther. There has also been instances where Papal Legates were defeated by the Reformers.
Johann Eck on the otherhand diid not. He instead went on to defeat other Reformers.
Icemoon, was Cardinal Cajenta, the leading Bible Scholar in that era??? -
ok, I was wrong, the debate between Eck and Luther, Eck was not sent by the Pope, he merely was defending the position of the Church against Luther's protestant movement.Originally posted by Icemoon:I dunno who is Johann Oecolampadius.
Like vince said, Johann is representing the Pope (the Catholic Church). To declare Luther a winner will be to admit the Pope is wrong.
Please .. have some sense when you are evaluating historical events.
nevertheless, a declaration of win to Luther would still means delcaring the Church a loser and the Pope had err.
however, Pope, my disappointment is that you did not quote the source of your post, its from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Eck
and you did not quote the whole thing, just part of it,The impression produced by Eck upon his auditors during that momentous time may be best learned from the account of the humanist Peter of Moselle, who described him as tall, stout, and squarely built. His voice was full and rolling, and of an admirable quality for an actor, or even for a public crier, while the sum total of his features would seem to argue the butcher or the professional soldier rather than the theologian. As far as his intellectual gifts were concerned, he had a wonderful memory, which, if supplemented by other talents in like proportion, would have made him a marvel, but he lacked swiftness of apprehension and deep insight, so that his masses of arguments and citations were indiscriminate, and he was filled with an inconceivable impudence though he had the cleverness to conceal it.
and also the bitterness Eck had after the debate with Luther, so bitter that he wanted Luther's works to be burned in public.Soon after his return to Ingolstadt, Eck attempted to persuade Elector Frederick of Saxony to have Luther's works burned in public, and during the year 1519 he published no less than eight writings against the new movement. He failed, however, to obtain a condemnatory decision from the universities appointed to pronounce on the outcome of the Leipzig disputation.
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Johann Eck is far from being a common manOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:Johann eck is a common man so even his loss will not affect the Papacy. He was not a Papal Legate stamped with Papal authority like Cardinal Cajetan.
The judges were German Theologicans and both Luther and Ech were german theoligcans so there shouldnt be any bias.
My argument is, if the Germans were so fearful of upsetting the Pope, why were they massed support for Luther. There has also been instances where Papal Legates were defeated by the Reformers.
Johann Eck on the otherhand diid not. He instead went on to defeat other Reformers.
Icemoon, was Cardinal Cajenta, the leading Bible Scholar in that era???
from the same place you quoted fromJohann Eck was born Johann Maier at Eck (later Egg, near Memmingen, 43 miles south of Augsburg) in Swabia, and derived his additional surname from his birthplace, which he himself, after 1505, always modified into Eckius or Eccius, i.e. "of Eck." His father, Michael Maier, was a peasant and bailiff, or Amtmann, of the village. The boy's education was undertaken by his uncle, Martin Maier, parish priest at Rottenburg on the river Neckar.
At the age of twelve he entered the University of Heidelberg, which he left in the following year for Tübingen. After taking his master's degree in 1501, he began the study of theology under Johann Jakob Lempp, and studied the elements of Hebrew and political economy with Konrad Summenhart. He left Tübingen in 1501 on account of the plague and after a year at Cologne finally settled at Freiburg-im-Breisgau, at first as a student of theology and law and later as a successful teacher. In 1508 he entered the priesthood in Strasbourg and two years later obtained his doctorate in theology.
At Freiburg in 1506 he published his first work, Ludicra logices exercitamenta and also proved himself a brilliant and subtle orator, although obsessed by an untamable controversial spirit and unrestrained powers of invective. At odds with his colleagues, he was glad to accept a call to a theological chair at Ingolstadt in November 1510, receiving at the same time the honors and income of a canon at Eichstadt. In 1512 he became prochancellor at the university and from that time until his death he was in complete control of the destinies of Ingolstadt, on which he impressed the character of ultracatholicism, which made it a bulwark of Roman Catholicism in Germany at that time. -
I think you are trying to rojak too many issues here. I am .. lost.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Johann eck is a common man so even his loss will not affect the Papacy. He was not a Papal Legate stamped with Papal authority like Cardinal Cajetan.
The judges were German Theologicans and both Luther and Ech were german theoligcans so there shouldnt be any bias.
My argument is, if the Germans were so fearful of upsetting the Pope, why were they massed support for Luther. There has also been instances where Papal Legates were defeated by the Reformers.
Johann Eck on the otherhand diid not. He instead went on to defeat other Reformers.
Icemoon, was Cardinal Cajenta, the leading Bible Scholar in that era???
I think you have to take a holistic view. You argue there shouldn't be any bias since all of them are Germans. But Germans so what? The fact that the German Eck could oppose the German Luther tells us something right?
About Germans massing support for Luther .. I believe there are many reasons behind. Political reasons? This is well known, the princes broke away because of political reason. The Anglican Church broke away because of political and personal reasons. -
Guys, continue in this thread please.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=233283 -
---moved to new thread
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Aquinas dealt with verses regarding Mary Virginity.