Who really founded the Catholic Church?
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Actually Aquinas is also a repectable theologian as well.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually the Protestants quite respect Augustine. Even Calvin owes part of his theology to Augustine but Protestants nowadays see Calvin but not Augustine.
Thomas Aquinas might have some substance but he based his summa on the Latin bible, which is a regret. Protestants later went back to the source (herbew and greek). Last time I even debated with ben about the Summa. Haha .. too bad you weren't around.
This is not to say Catholics don't have commentators versed in the greek or hebrew. There are, just not very famous.
If you have the time, you should put down whatever hatred you have for Protestantism, clear your mind and prejudice, and start reading about the Protestant fathers.
Read about Luther and this Theology of the Cross. Read how Luther viewed salvation. Read why Luther thinks everything is a paradox.
Remember, the point is not to agree with Luther, but to appreicate what he is worth.
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huh .. is that a coincidence?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Those are the inspired scriptures. He chose 4 cos they are 4 corners int eh world but they are the onli 4 INSPIRED scriptures.
Is he trying to highlight the coincidence?
don't try to downplay the 4 corners leh. I remember in his writing, he intro the 4 corners first, then other reasons.
and how did he know the 4 are inspired and the rest are not? -
Dont know much abt how bad Summa sucked haha. Most Catholics refer to him as the Angelic Doctor. I thought Luther theology was rebutted point by point in the Council of trent.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually the Protestants quite respect Augustine. Even Calvin owes part of his theology to Augustine but Protestants nowadays see Calvin but not Augustine.
Thomas Aquinas might have some substance but he based his summa on the Latin bible, which is a regret. Protestants later went back to the source (herbew and greek). Last time I even debated with ben about the Summa. Haha .. too bad you weren't around.
This is not to say Catholics don't have commentators versed in the greek or hebrew. There are, just not very famous.
If you have the time, you should put down whatever hatred you have for Protestantism, clear your mind and prejudice, and start reading about the Protestant fathers.
Read about Luther and this Theology of the Cross. Read how Luther viewed salvation. Read why Luther thinks everything is a paradox.
Remember, the point is not to agree with Luther, but to appreicate what he is worth. -
Not so much in the Protestant circle.Originally posted by vince69:Actually Aquinas is also a repectable theologian as well.
Well .. at least Augustine contributed his argument with Pelagius. This matter involves one of the cornerstone of the faith. -
Expected. No rebuttal is as good as admitting defeat. Suffice to say, the argument was over the [sole] authority of Scripture. Luther, in fact, still clung to the half-fark version of the eucharist.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Dont know much abt how bad Summa sucked haha. Most Catholics refer to him as the Angelic Doctor. I thought Luther theology was rebutted point by point in the Council of trent.
We should read Luther and his powerful ideas, not Luther and his act of tearing up the bible. Haha ..
Like his Theology of the Cross. Catholics say salvation is a mystery (or was it eucharist is a mystery? ahah .. everything is a mystery lah). Luther says salvation is a paradox. -
I dont think aquinas is respected in Protestant circles. Most of his theologies run smack to protestanitsm like the Eucharist etc etc.Originally posted by Icemoon:Not so much in the Protestant circle.
Well .. at least Augustine contributed his argument with Pelagius. This matter involves one of the cornerstone of the faith. -
*points to vince* .. he says one .. not me.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I dont think aquinas is respected in Protestant circles. Most of his theologies run smack to protestanitsm like the Eucharist etc etc.
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You may want to read up the church history and see the historical background for this statementOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:CHAP. IV.--THE TRUTH IS TO BE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE BUT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE SOLE DEPOSITORY OF APOSTOLICAL DOCTRINE. HERESIES ARE OF RECENT FORMATION, AND CANNOT TRACE THEIR ORIGIN UP TO THE APOSTLES
St Irenaus
1) this was when literacy was not much encourage among the peasants of that days, most of them cannot even write their own name (schools is uncommon, and may not even exist)
2) Most of those who can read and given the chance to go into advance studies are from the ranks of the Monks.
3) The Bible was only written in Latin, and only the Monks knows this language well enough to do indepth studies into the scriptures (and they are the only people with the resources as well)
This statement was made in order to discourage the average laity from reading the Bible for themselves.
cause, they don't know how to read, it erode the authority of the church over them.
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Wait a minute!Originally posted by vince69:You may want to read up the church history and see the historical background for this statement
1) this was when literacy was not much encourage among the peasants of that days, most of them cannot even write their own name (schools is uncommon, and may not even exist)
2) Most of those who can read and given the chance to go into advance studies are from the ranks of the Monks.
3) The Bible was only written in Latin, and only the Monks knows this language well enough to do indepth studies into the scriptures (and they are the only people with the resources as well)
This statement was made in order to discourage the average laity from reading the Bible for themselves.
cause, they don't know how to read, it erode the authority of the church over them.
Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies in AD.180.
Has the monastery order began?
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Huh? Irenaus is at 180AD.Originally posted by vince69:You may want to read up the church history and see the historical background for this statement
1) this was when literacy was not much encourage among the peasants of that days, most of them cannot even write their own name (schools is uncommon, and may not even exist)
2) Most of those who can read and given the chance to go into advance studies are from the ranks of the Monks.
3) The Bible was only written in Latin, and only the Monks knows this language well enough to do indepth studies into the scriptures (and they are the only people with the resources as well)
This statement was made in order to discourage the average laity from reading the Bible for themselves.
cause, they don't know how to read, it erode the authority of the church over them.
Those 3 reasons kinda show how flawed sola scriptura is.... -
really? hmm... then me bad.... ok, not really well read about Irenaeus.Originally posted by Icemoon:Wait a minute!
Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies in AD.180.
Has the monastery order began?
all I know is that this is a very common phrase used during the pre-reformation times when most if not all lay person (ie. peasants) are illerate and the monastery order is the only insitute of higher learning, which is very much not the case now. -
what have this got to do with Sola Scriptura? I am not talking about scriptural truth, but of human history.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Huh? Irenaus is at 180AD.
Those 3 reasons kinda show how flawed sola scriptura is.... -
How can Scripture be the sole source of truth when no one (except monks) in 1800yrs had a Bible? Who would they depend on to intepretate Scripture? Naturally the Church. Sola scriptura is onli possible if everyone had a Bible in the first place remember....Originally posted by vince69:what have this got to do with Sola Scriptura? I am not talking about scriptural truth, but of human history.
Btw he was against sola scriptura as well haha. U find rebuttals to soal scriptura in 180AD...can u beat that.
"Through none others know we the disposition of our salvation, than those through whom the gospel came to us, first heralding it, then by the will of God delivering to us the Scriptures, which were to be the foundation and pillar of our faith...But when, the heretics are Scriptures, as if they were wrong, and unauthoritative, and were variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were ignorant of Tradition...And when we challenge them in turn what that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which is guarded by the succession of elders in the churches, they oppose themselves to Tradition, saying that they are wiser, not only than those elders, but even than the Apostles. The Tradition of the Apostles, manifested 'on the contrary' in the whole world, is open in every Church to all who see the truth...And, since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the Tradition of that greatest and most ancient and universally known Church, founded and constituted at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a tradition which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men from those Apostles.' Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,1-3 (inter A.D. 180/199). -
Hey, this is about papacy and stuff...we are disgressing. deal with the Exodus and matthew biblcal verses and my exegis of it.
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Lovely , I sense Catholic bashing here.
Doctrinal differences exist but all christians ( protestant and catholic and orthodox) worship the same god. Most church structures have already been established for centuries except for new age type like CHC and hope of god.
Get over it , people. Catholicism and Protestanism are here to stay despite all the differences. No one group is better than the other. -
I dont think so.Originally posted by fymk:Lovely , I sense Catholic bashing here.
Doctrinal differences exist but all christians ( protestant and catholic and orthodox) worship the same god. Most church structures have already been established for centuries except for new age type like CHC and hope of god.
Get over it , people. Catholicism and Protestanism are here to stay despite all the differences. No one group is better than the other.
Why dont u throw in muslims and jews...dont we all worship the same God as well? -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
can you go read my definition (summarised somewhere here) on Sola Scriptura and what it is about and also what it is not.
How can Scripture be the sole source of truth when no one (except monks) in 1800yrs had a Bible? Who would they depend on to intepretate Scripture? Naturally the Church. Sola scriptura is onli possible if everyone had a Bible in the first place remember....
Btw he was against sola scriptura as well haha. U find rebuttals to soal scriptura in 180AD...can u beat that.
"Through none others know we the disposition of our salvation, than those through whom the gospel came to us, first heralding it, then by the will of God delivering to us the Scriptures, which were to be the foundation and pillar of our faith...[b]But when, the heretics are Scriptures, as if they were wrong, and unauthoritative, and were variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were ignorant of Tradition...And when we challenge them in turn what that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which is guarded by the succession of elders in the churches, they oppose themselves to Tradition, saying that they are wiser, not only than those elders, but even than the Apostles. The Tradition of the Apostles, manifested 'on the contrary' in the whole world, is open in every Church to all who see the truth...And, since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the Tradition of that greatest and most ancient and universally known Church, founded and constituted at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a tradition which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men from those Apostles.' Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,1-3 (inter A.D. 180/199).[/b]
and on your quote in your own wordsSola scriptura is onli possible if everyone had a Bible in the first place remember....
most of us now have a Bible (some have more copies than others) -
no bashing is happening yet (hope it won't happen), just disagreement.Originally posted by fymk:Lovely , I sense Catholic bashing here.
Doctrinal differences exist but all christians ( protestant and catholic and orthodox) worship the same god. Most church structures have already been established for centuries except for new age type like CHC and hope of god.
Get over it , people. Catholicism and Protestanism are here to stay despite all the differences. No one group is better than the other.
the disagreement thus far have been around two pts.
1) All believers in Christ (Christians, ie; both Roman Catholics and Protestant christians) have the Holy Spirit as our counselor as promised by Christ.
2) The Roman Catholic Church have the sole authority and ownership to the truth, all others do not have the truth.
The former is what myself had been trying to bring forth, while the latter is what Pope Nic here is saying.
ok... summarised for you
back to the discussion. -
come to think of it, both of us have been just stating our own position, not much of a progress at all.
anyway, Thanks Icey for a good discussion, you did brought up a few interesting points.
Thanks Pope Nic also, though I do not agree with your analysis, but at least it have not went into bashing yet.
Since we most likely would get into any conclusion here, lets leave it and agree to disagree, yah..
Don't think I want to venture any further than we already had done -
1) All believers possese the gift of truth to intepretate Scripture without Tradition or any ChurchOriginally posted by vince69:no bashing is happening yet (hope it won't happen), just disagreement.
the disagreement thus far have been around two pts.
1) All believers in Christ (Christians, ie; both Roman Catholics and Protestant christians) have the Holy Spirit as our counselor as promised by Christ.
2) The Roman Catholic Church have the sole authority and ownership to the truth, all others do not have the truth.
The former is what myself had been trying to bring forth, while the latter is what Pope Nic here is saying.
ok... summarised for you
back to the discussion.
2) Its called Cathollic Church LOL> RCC refers to Latin Rite catholics....we must not forget our eastern brethen. -
Alrite, but b4 that. I do wish to know the definition of Sola Scriptura. Every Protestant give me a different one. Do u know where an offical definition is....perhaps from Luther ConfessiosnOriginally posted by vince69:come to think of it, both of us have been just stating our own position, not much of a progress at all.
anyway, Thanks Icey for a good discussion, you did brought up a few interesting points.
Thanks Pope Nic also, though I do not agree with your analysis, but at least it have not went into bashing yet.
Since we most likely would get into any conclusion here, lets leave it and agree to disagree, yah..
Don't think I want to venture any further than we already had done
I seriously doubt bashing would have taken place. -
Then again, what is your stand on this.Originally posted by Icemoon:Then the point about Holy Spirit is moot.
Because a lot of time, even with the Holy Spirit, we are no different from without Holy Spirit.
You replied like you've recieved Holy Spirit the gift.
Interesting. -
Wat sae u......i wrote alot of stuff....ok maybe not. Most of it came from Bible and verses in support of papacy...but i linked it.
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Pope means Papa in Italian which means FATHER - Biblical
Compare the two biblicl texts to understand the Papacy better.
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call [b]My servant Eliakim the son of Helcias, and I will clothe him with thy Robe, and I will strengthen him with thy Sash, and will give thy Power into his hand; and he shall be as a FATHER to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And I will lay the KEY of the House of David upon his shoulder; and he shall open and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a peg in a Sure Place, and he shall be for a Throne of glory to the house of his Father. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his Fathers house, diverse kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music." Isaiah 22:20-24
"And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give THEE the KEYS of the Kingdom of Heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." Matt 16:18-19
Notice similarites? This is just the very few times when KEYS are mentioned and the onli times when KEYS and the POwers of binding and loosing is mentioned.
So what do we have here? We have an OFFICE, a SASH, a ROBE, a THRONE, a KEY, a PEG, and a SURE PLACE.
The House of David is the Davidic Kingdom. David is a figure of Christ
The office mentioned in OT is like a prime minister role to rule Isreal when there is no King. Elikiam ruled Israel. Similiarly in NT, Christ institued a prime minister role for Peter by giving him the KEYS. The KEYS also represent dynastic Sucession as Elikiam succeeded Shebna in Isaiah 22:20. Similiarly this new Office Christ institued must have successors and they are our modern day popes. This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Christ our king is now in heaven is not wif us physically hence he gives us a prime minister to guide us. This is further strengthened when he ordered Peter to feed his flocks. In greek feed means to RULE. He also tells him to strenghten the fellow APOSTLES.
Eliakim is called “father” or “papa/pope” of God's people. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth.
Interesting bible verses:
"As an olive tree budding forth, and a cypress tree rearing itself on high, when he put on the ROBE of Glory, and was clothed with the perfection of POWER. When he went up to the Holy Altar, he honored the vesture of Holiness. And when he took the portions out of the hands of the priests, he himself stood by the Altar. And about him was the ring of his brethren: and as the cedar planted in mount Libanus, and as branches of palm trees, they stood round about him, and all the sons of Aaron in their glory. And the Oblation of the Lord (the Holy Eucharist) was in their hands before all the Congregation (Church) of Israel. And finishing his service on the Altar, to honor the offering of the Most High King, he stretched forth his hand to make a libation, and offered the Blood of the grape (wine transformed into the Blood of Christ)." Sir 50:11-16
"Now therefore we make thee this day High Priest (Vicar of Christ) of thy nation, and that thou be called the King's friend (and he sent them a Purple ROBE, and a CROWN OF GOLD (Miter)), and that thou be of one mind with us in our affairs, and keep friendship with us." 1Macc 10:20
The THRONE is the Chair (Seat) of Saint Peter from which the Vicar of Christ prolcaims to the whole world, infallilbe statements on faith and morals. Moses, the Leader of GOD's chosen people had a Seat of Authority.
"The Scribes and the Pharisees have sat on the Chair of Moses." Matt 23:2
"This Propitiatory (Mercy Seat) you shall then place on top of the Ark. In the Ark itself you are to put the Commandments which I will give you. There I will meet you and there, from above the Propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the Ark of the Commandments, I will tell you all of the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites (Ex-Cathedra)." Ex 25:20-22
The next day Moses sat in judgment for the people, who waited about him from morning until evening. When his father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he inquired, "What sort of thing is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone while all the people have to stand about you from morning till evening?" Moses answered his father-in-law, "The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations." (NT papal authority of supremacy) "You are not acting wisely," his father-in-law replied. "You will surely wear yourself out, and not only yourself but also these people with you. The task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. Now, listen to me, and I will give you some advice, that God may be with you. Act as the people's representative before God, bringing to him whatever they have to say. Enlighten them in regard to the decisions and regulations, showing them how they are to live and what they are to do. But you should also look among all the people for able and God-fearing men, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain, and set them as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. Let these men render decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. More important cases they should refer to you, (PAPAL AUTHORITY. ROME HAS SPOKEN, THE ISSUE IS SETTLED) but all the lesser cases they can settle themselves. Thus, your burden will be lightened, since they will bear it with you. If you do this, when God gives you orders you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied."
Moses followed the advice of his father-in-law and did all that he had suggested. He picked out able men from all Israel and put them in charge of the people as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens (CARDINALS, ARCHBISHOPS, AND BISHOPS, AS WE HAVE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY). They rendered decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. The more difficult cases they referred to Moses, but all the lesser cases they settled themselves.
Exodus: 18:13-26
I hope this few verses can convince u in the biblical nature of the papacy. Rememebr every organization has the Power of Administration. If a Democracy has a Parliamemt, an elected President, if a company has a CEO, board of directors and stakeholders....what more of a 2000yr old institution wif a Magisteruim (filled with her Bishops) and the Papacy all filled in the Spirit of Truth? Is that wrong?[/b] -
Wat sae u......i wrote alot of stuff....ok maybe not. Most of it came from Bible and verses in support of papacy...but i linked it.
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Pope means Papa in Italian which means FATHER - Biblical
Compare the two biblicl texts to understand the Papacy better.
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call [b]My servant Eliakim the son of Helcias, and I will clothe him with thy Robe, and I will strengthen him with thy Sash, and will give thy Power into his hand; and he shall be as a FATHER to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And I will lay the KEY of the House of David upon his shoulder; and he shall open and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a peg in a Sure Place, and he shall be for a Throne of glory to the house of his Father. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his Fathers house, diverse kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music." Isaiah 22:20-24
"And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give THEE the KEYS of the Kingdom of Heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." Matt 16:18-19
Notice similarites? This is just the very few times when KEYS are mentioned and the onli times when KEYS and the POwers of binding and loosing is mentioned.
So what do we have here? We have an OFFICE, a SASH, a ROBE, a THRONE, a KEY, a PEG, and a SURE PLACE.
The House of David is the Davidic Kingdom. David is a figure of Christ
The office mentioned in OT is like a prime minister role to rule Isreal when there is no King. Elikiam ruled Israel. Similiarly in NT, Christ institued a prime minister role for Peter by giving him the KEYS. The KEYS also represent dynastic Sucession as Elikiam succeeded Shebna in Isaiah 22:20. Similiarly this new Office Christ institued must have successors and they are our modern day popes. This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Christ our king is now in heaven is not wif us physically hence he gives us a prime minister to guide us. This is further strengthened when he ordered Peter to feed his flocks. In greek feed means to RULE. He also tells him to strenghten the fellow APOSTLES.
Eliakim is called “father” or “papa/pope” of God's people. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth.
Interesting bible verses:
"As an olive tree budding forth, and a cypress tree rearing itself on high, when he put on the ROBE of Glory, and was clothed with the perfection of POWER. When he went up to the Holy Altar, he honored the vesture of Holiness. And when he took the portions out of the hands of the priests, he himself stood by the Altar. And about him was the ring of his brethren: and as the cedar planted in mount Libanus, and as branches of palm trees, they stood round about him, and all the sons of Aaron in their glory. And the Oblation of the Lord (the Holy Eucharist) was in their hands before all the Congregation (Church) of Israel. And finishing his service on the Altar, to honor the offering of the Most High King, he stretched forth his hand to make a libation, and offered the Blood of the grape (wine transformed into the Blood of Christ)." Sir 50:11-16
"Now therefore we make thee this day High Priest (Vicar of Christ) of thy nation, and that thou be called the King's friend (and he sent them a Purple ROBE, and a CROWN OF GOLD (Miter)), and that thou be of one mind with us in our affairs, and keep friendship with us." 1Macc 10:20
The THRONE is the Chair (Seat) of Saint Peter from which the Vicar of Christ prolcaims to the whole world, infallilbe statements on faith and morals. Moses, the Leader of GOD's chosen people had a Seat of Authority.
"The Scribes and the Pharisees have sat on the Chair of Moses." Matt 23:2
"This Propitiatory (Mercy Seat) you shall then place on top of the Ark. In the Ark itself you are to put the Commandments which I will give you. There I will meet you and there, from above the Propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the Ark of the Commandments, I will tell you all of the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites (Ex-Cathedra)." Ex 25:20-22
The next day Moses sat in judgment for the people, who waited about him from morning until evening. When his father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he inquired, "What sort of thing is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone while all the people have to stand about you from morning till evening?" Moses answered his father-in-law, "The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations." (NT papal authority of supremacy) "You are not acting wisely," his father-in-law replied. "You will surely wear yourself out, and not only yourself but also these people with you. The task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. Now, listen to me, and I will give you some advice, that God may be with you. Act as the people's representative before God, bringing to him whatever they have to say. Enlighten them in regard to the decisions and regulations, showing them how they are to live and what they are to do. But you should also look among all the people for able and God-fearing men, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain, and set them as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. Let these men render decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. More important cases they should refer to you, (PAPAL AUTHORITY. ROME HAS SPOKEN, THE ISSUE IS SETTLED) but all the lesser cases they can settle themselves. Thus, your burden will be lightened, since they will bear it with you. If you do this, when God gives you orders you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied."
Moses followed the advice of his father-in-law and did all that he had suggested. He picked out able men from all Israel and put them in charge of the people as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens (CARDINALS, ARCHBISHOPS, AND BISHOPS, AS WE HAVE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY). They rendered decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. The more difficult cases they referred to Moses, but all the lesser cases they settled themselves.
Exodus: 18:13-26
I hope this few verses can convince u in the biblical nature of the papacy. Rememebr every organization has the Power of Administration. If a Democracy has a Parliamemt, an elected President, if a company has a CEO, board of directors and stakeholders....what more of a 2000yr old institution wif a Magisteruim (filled with her Bishops) and the Papacy all filled in the Spirit of Truth? Is that wrong?[/b] -
What stand?Originally posted by M©+square:Then again, what is your stand on this.
You replied like you've recieved Holy Spirit the gift.
Interesting.
I was just stating my observation.