Who really founded the Catholic Church?
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I agree that every believer has the Spirit but onli the apostles recieved the gift of Truth? Did he show verses where the masses recieved the gift of Truth???Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually this was my question to vince.
in reply, he gave me some verses and told me to read them in context (meaning whole chapter?). Have you done the readings?
Masses - gift of tongue ( ceased now), gift of prohecy, gift of healing etc etc
Apostles: gift of forgiving sins and gift of truth. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
CCEL uses the same translation as newadvent and the protestant article.
[b]In CCEL[/b]
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-60.htm#P7297_19378591. WE have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in
the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. -
Is the Truth some doctrine? some teaching? OR is the Truth a person?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Everyone has the Spirit. But onli the Apostles were given the gift of Truth.
Christ our Lord claims that He is the Way, the Truth and the life
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
meaning Christ is the Truth (its not just a gift)
Anyway, thank you for agreeing that ALL believers have the Holy Spirit given to them. -
Hmm .. I better paste vince's reply in the afternoon since it is quite out of sight now.
Icey,,, Holy Spirit as the counselor is the role of the Holy Spirit not the gift of the Holy Spirit which is also different from the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Role of The Holy Spirit = Counselor, seal of God's ownership, a gurantee to the things to come, comforter, teacher ...etc
Gift of the Holy Spirit = tongues, prophecy, administration, helps, healing ...etc
Fruits of the Holy Spirit = love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ..etcIcey, here are the reference verses you may be interested in (pls read them in context and as a whole, cause some of them I cannot quote whole passage here, too long)
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c] the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
Roman 8:15-16
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[a] And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. -
Just realised something, your reference to 'the gift of truth', am I right to say you are actually refering to 'the gift of teaching doctrinal truths'?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I agree that every believer has the Spirit but onli the apostles recieved the gift of Truth? Did he show verses where the masses recieved the gift of Truth???
Masses - gift of tongue ( ceased now), gift of prohecy, gift of healing etc etc
Apostles: gift of forgiving sins and gift of truth.
Oh... the answer to your question is, NO, infact the verses I quoted did not specifically mentioned which gift goes to who, however, the was a mention on
1) the purpose of giving these gifts, which is for the edification of the Body of Christ, ie; the Church.
2) Not everyone is given the same gifts (diversification of gifts), just as the body is make up of different parts functioning differently. -
Yes.....thats wad i have been saying. The Apostyles and thier successors have it.Originally posted by vince69:Just realised something, your reference to 'the gift of truth', am I right to say you are actually refering to 'the gift of teaching doctrinal truths'? -
I am confused.
If the apostles and successors have it, then it means there are others who can declare ex-cathedra beside the Pope? -
But if u ahve read the entire document in context, u see the CC position.Originally posted by Icemoon:
Chapter II.-The Heretics Follow Neither Scripture Nor Tradition.
1. When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, "But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world."4 And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent,5 who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.
2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition
Chapter III.-A Refutation of the Heretics, from the Fact That, in the Various Churches, a Perpetual Succession of Bishops Was Kept Up.
1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect" apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority,6 that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
Both Tradition and Scripture are important. Thst irenaus position.
The rest of the Church father quotes were taken out of context as well. Cyril of Juerasalem quotes was a joke for his documents were extremely Catholic.... -
hee hee, check you spelling leh...Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yes.....thats wad i have been saying. The Apostyles and thier successors have it.
ok... thats a relief,
the meaning of the phrase 'gift of truth' and 'gift of teaching the doctrinal truth' very different leh, like this can cause alot of unnecessary mis understanding hoh.
ok, if its 'gift of teaching the doctrinal truth', ok... this is a gift normally given to those with a calling for the ministry office of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors, Teachers (NOTE: Not all are called into these ministries) -
Hah thats a relief. Rarely seen a protestant arguing everyone had the power to form doctrines and intepretate scriptures etc etc.Originally posted by vince69:hee hee, check you spelling leh...
ok... thats a relief,
the meaning of the phrase 'gift of truth' and 'gift of teaching the doctrinal truth' very different leh, like this can cause alot of unnecessary mis understanding hoh.
ok, if its 'gift of teaching the doctrinal truth', ok... this is a gift normally given to those with a calling for the ministry office of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors, Teachers (NOTE: Not all are called into these ministries)
Both sides agree that there are special offices of whom possese the power to form such doctrines. We differ on how do we get into such an office.
Catholics and Orthodox believe in Apostolic Succession
Protestant believe in_________ ( i dont know) -
1) The Sacred Magisteruim of the Church teaches infallibly...ALWAYSOriginally posted by Icemoon:I am confused.
If the apostles and successors have it, then it means there are others who can declare ex-cathedra beside the Pope?
2) Ecunimcal Councils can form doctrines infallibily
(bishops can exercise the powers of binding and loosing as a grp as the Apostles were given these powers as a grp but are required to be in communion wif the Pope who possese the KEYS)
3) Popes can do so without a council as Peter was given the powers of binding and loosing individually.
Check the Catechism of the Church to be sure...me go soccer. -
It looks like you are the one not getting it.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But if u ahve read the entire document in context, u see the CC position.
Both Tradition and Scripture are important. Thst irenaus position.
Did the author say Tradition not important?It is with the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian in the mid to late second century that we first encounter the concept of Apostolic Tradition (tradition handed down in the Church from the apostles in oral form). The word tradition simply means teaching. Irenaeus and Tertullian state emphatically that all the teachings of the Bishops that was given orally was rooted in Scripture and could be proven from the written Scriptures.
Both men give the actual doctrinal content of the Apostolic Tradition that was orally preached in the churches. From this, it can be seen clearly that all their doctrine was derived from Scripture. There was no doctrine in what they refer to as apostolic Tradition that is not found in Scripture.
In other words, the apostolic Tradition defined by Irenaeus and Tertullian is simply the teaching of Scripture. It was Irenaeus who stated that while the Apostles at first preached orally, their teaching was later committed to writing (the Scriptures), and the Scriptures had since that day become the pillar and ground of the Churchs faith. His exact statement is as follows:
"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith." [1]
Tradition, when referring to oral proclamation such as preaching or teaching, was viewed primarily as the oral presentation of Scriptural truth, or the codifying of biblical truth into creedal expression. There is no appeal in the writings of Irenaeus or Tertullian to a Tradition on issues of doctrine that are not found in Scripture. -
Rubbish!Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Hah thats a relief. Rarely seen a protestant arguing everyone had the power to form doctrines and intepretate scriptures etc etc.
Both sides agree that there are special offices of whom possese the power to form such doctrines. We differ on how do we get into such an office.
When did he say 'power to form doctrines'?
He said 'gift of teaching doctrinal truth'.
your english fail one issit?
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Don't understand 1 and 2.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:1) The Sacred Magisteruim of the Church teaches infallibly...ALWAYS
2) Ecunimcal Councils can form doctrines infallibily
(bishops can exercise the powers of binding and loosing as a grp as the Apostles were given these powers as a grp but are required to be in communion wif the Pope who possese the KEYS)
3) Popes can do so without a council as Peter was given the powers of binding and loosing individually.
Check the Catechism of the Church to be sure...me go soccer. -
Hiaya same meaning la....teach doctrines LOL. The CC doesnt form doctrines...it teaches it as well haha.Originally posted by Icemoon:Rubbish!
When did he say 'power to form doctrines'?
He said 'gift of teaching doctrinal truth'.
your english fail one issit? -
Sola Scripture negates the NEED of unwritten Tradition by assuming everything can be found in Scripture rendering unwritten Tradition useless. The Church Fathers believed in the sufficiency of Scripture which the CC also holds. If material sufficiency means that all the doctrines of the Catholic faith can be found, however remotely, in Scripture, well, I believe that www.ScriptureCatholic.com demonstrates that this viewpoint is true. This is to be contrasted with “formal sufficiency,” the Protestant notion that all doctrines necessary for our salvation are formally presented in Scripture.Originally posted by Icemoon:
When the Fathers talk about the “sufficiency” of Scripture, however, they never do so at the exclusion of the oral apostolic tradition and living Magisterium of the Catholic Church. To the contrary, those Fathers who wrote about the material sufficiency of Scripture wrote elsewhere about the equally binding apostolic tradition and the authentic interpreter of all Tradition (both written and unwritten), the Catholic Magisterium. (Scripture catholic)
Tradition and Scripture is NOT muttually exclusive. Both are needed like 2 hands of the same body. The Church uses Tradition to intepretate Scripture. Hence it is impossible to use Tradition to teach a completely un-scripturial doctrine. This quote by Tertuillian should help u.
"We do not take our scriptural teaching from the parables but we interpret the parables according to our teaching." Tertullian, Purity 9,1 (c. A.D. 200).
Moreover, majority of this Father ur site quoted like Cyril or Tertuallian taught Catholic doctrines like the Sacrifice of the Mass etc etc. On the one hand, they are advancing the FatherÂ’s interpretation of Scripture (to prove sola Scriptura), and on the other hand, they are claiming that the same Father was a blatant heretic for his Catholic interpretations of Scripture! -
you say same but pple might not think like you.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Hiaya same meaning la....teach doctrines LOL. The CC doesnt form doctrines...it teaches it as well haha. -
You have to be exact in your explanations. People her are very 'exacting'.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Hiaya same meaning la....teach doctrines LOL. The CC doesnt form doctrines...it teaches it as well haha.
Other than that you're doing all right. -
of course, if not then its very easy to get into miss-understanding, right?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:You have to be exact in your explanations. People her are very 'exacting'.
Other than that you're doing all right.
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I agree.Originally posted by vince69:of course, if not then its very easy to get into miss-understanding, right?
Well the CC position in layman term is: The Church uses Tradition to intepretate Scripture
I believe there is this stool analogy. Have u guys heard it? -
no idea on the stool analogyOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:I agree.
Well the CC position in layman term is: The Church uses Tradition to intepretate Scripture
I believe there is this stool analogy. Have u guys heard it?
Many methods to interpret Scripture, though I favor using using Scripture itself, however I do not dispute the role of Church traditions and teachings (that are inline with Scriptural principles) in the life of a believer.
*** before I forget : in order to do this, one must have a understanding of the Historical background, Traditions ...etc as a guide. -
suan le bah.
there are 4 gospels because there are 4 corners.
God should be more brilliant than that.
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i atually learnt abt this through this documentary i watched many years back!!Originally posted by Icemoon:there are 4 gospels because there are 4 corners. -
I do agree with u in principle. But I feel all are equally important.Originally posted by vince69:no idea on the stool analogy
Many methods to interpret Scripture, though I favor using using Scripture itself, however I do not dispute the role of Church traditions and teachings (that are inline with Scriptural principles) in the life of a believer.
Thats why the Catholics hold Sola Verbum Dei ( Word of God alone) vs Protestants Sola Scriptura
We feel the Scripture and Tradition make up the Word of God.
This is the Stool Analogy.
I feel it may be incorrect for Icemoon says the Protestants believe in Tradition.
The Deposit of Faith of the Catholic Church consists of Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, and the Magisterium in conjunction with our Holy Father the Pope. You can equate it to a three legged stool, with each leg having its own specific function. This three legged stool is also firmly implanted on the solid rock of the Catholic Church. See Matt 16:18, John 1:42, Eph 2:20, 1Pet 2:4-8
A three legged stool has strength, is sturdy, stable, steadfast and stalwart. That is all well and good. However, what happens when you cut off one leg? The stool becomes unstable and falls over.
During the Protestant reformation, the reformers separated themselves from one of those three legs of stability. They rejected the Pope and the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. They purposely chopped off one leg of the stool, and by doing so, they lost all authority. They lost the arbitrator of disputes between opposing viewpoints regarding faith and morals.
See Matt 18:15-18.
They cut themselves off from the Foundation and the Pillar of Truth which is the Catholic Church. See 1Tim 3:15.
They also made for themselves an unstable stool, one which was shaky and was easily subject to tipping over and shattering.
Since the reformers lost all authority, to whom, or to what, could they turn to fill the void? They turned to the only resource they had, the Holy Bible, a product of the Catholic Church by the way. In so doing, they declared that the Bible was the sole source of authority, and
Non-Catholics fail to realize that the Bible is nothing more than Tradition written down. For the first three hundred years of Christianity, there was no New Testament as we know it now. Jesus did not found a book. He founded a teaching Church.
Reformers were forced to cut off yet a second leg from their stool. Now they had only one wobbly leg left to balance on, and balance they did not do for very long at all, not even for one year.
Since the Authority of the Magisterium for Bible interpretation was no longer available, the reformers made a fateful decision that would result in a disaster that grew so fast that they could no longer control it. They had decided that everyone could go his own way in Bible interpretation. This was yet another man made tradition forbidden by Holy Scripture.
See ***Acts 8:26-40, ***2Pet 1:19-21, and ***2Pet 3:16.
The one legged stool fell to the ground and shattered into many pieces. Individual interpretation of Holy Scripture immediately resulted in squabbles and splits in Protestantism which continue to this very day. In 1521, the same year that Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church, Thomas Munser split from Luther. By 1600 there were over 200 splits. By 1900, there were over 1000. Now there are over 36,400 splits in the Body of Christ. The splits are continuing to this very day with an estimated 3-5 new splits every week. In addition, all of the major Protestant sects are splitting within themselves. All of this madness was caused by the man-made false doctrines of Sola Scriptura and individual interpretation of Holy Scripture, both of which were started by the reformers.
Martin Luther lamented when he saw the damage that individual interpretation of Scripture had done to his Protestant movement. See several quotes from him regarding his distress over the Protestant splits in "The Origin of Sola Scriptura".
The stool of Protestantism is a shambles. It has shattered into thousands of pieces, and there is no one in Protestantism who has the authority to put the pieces together again. A stool needs three legs to stand tall. It cannot stand on one for long. As soon as the winds of change rise, it will topple over and shatter as did this one.
http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/legacy.htm -
I first learnt about this in the Gospel of Judas documentary.Originally posted by ben1xy:i atually learnt abt this through this documentary i watched many years back!!
And I was reinforced when I read works of scholarship.
Obviously your priest or bible teacher won't tell you that .. lol