The bible is rather boring
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No one wants to die for the resurrected Christ whose only power was to pass through walls and scared the hell out of everyone.
No one wants to be like him, whose body is not glorified at all. In fact I think the biblical description does not portray the risen Christ as someone who is very healthy and full of glory. And the hole is still there .. yucks.
But after the Pentecost .. ho seh liao! Different story. -
here's your statement:Originally posted by Icemoon:I said resurrection of the flesh .. duh.
The gospels actually talk about physical resurrection whereas the apostle Paul saw the resurrected Christ in the spiritual.
"IIs it any wonder the first books to be written, i.e. the Pauline epistles, never specifically mention about the resurrection of the flesh, the resurrection account?"
was not the Lord Jesus resurrected bodlily?
"whereas the apostle Paul saw the resurrected Christ in the spiritual"
can u show us the proof? show us texts and explain it to us. -
"No one wants to die for the resurrected Christ whose only power was to pass through walls and scared the hell out of everyone."Originally posted by Icemoon:No one wants to die for the resurrected Christ whose only power was to pass through walls and scared the hell out of everyone.
No one wants to be like him, whose body is not glorified at all. In fact I think the biblical description does not portray the risen Christ as someone who is very healthy and full of glory. And the hole is still there .. yucks.
But after the Pentecost .. ho seh liao! Different story.
"No one wants to die...." can u expound a bit about this statement?
Because down through the centuries there have been martyrs for their faith in Christ. That seems like a sweeping statment.
"No one wants to be like him, whose body is not glorified at all. In fact I think the biblical description does not portray the risen Christ as someone who is very healthy and full of glory. And the hole is still there .. yucks."
"No one wants to be like Him" you did not ask me and the rest of genuine Christians around the world. Again this is a sweeping statement.
"In fact I think the biblical description does not portray the risen Christ as someone who is very healthy and full of glory. And the hole is still there."
"But after the Pentecost .. ho seh liao! Different story."
why? what's the story in pentecost? -
If you read the gospel .. you can easily fall prey to the idea of salvation by works.Originally posted by ben1xy:hmm, and which Epistle would u then recommend? i have a friend that wants to know more... i told him to read the Gospels
your way makes sense, esp the essentials part.
Look at shady .. he never quotes from the Pauline epistles .. and look at his resulting theology.
Hmm .. which epistles? Should start from Gal or 1 Thes since they were the first to be written?
I have the strong urge to say Romans leh .. 'cos it contains the most succint summary of the Christian faith (in bold below):10 8 But what saith the scripture? The word is nigh thee; even in thy mouth and in thy heart. This is the word of faith, which we preach.
10 9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 10 For, with the heart, we believe unto justice: but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=1&b=6&c=10
PS: Catholics in drunkard mode also can recite the latin "Ave Maria blah blah" .. how come they never memorise the latin for the bold above?
quia si confitearis in ore tuo Dominum Iesum et in corde tuo credideris quod Deus illum excitavit ex mortuis salvus eris -
Originally posted by Ironside:
The epistles never made clear that it was a physical resurrection. The way Paul described the resurrection (so glorified) doesn't match a physical resurrection.
here's your statement:
[b]"IIs it any wonder the first books to be written, i.e. the Pauline epistles, never specifically mention about the resurrection of the flesh, the resurrection account?"
was not the Lord Jesus resurrected bodlily?
[/b] -
Read the statement in context.Originally posted by Ironside:"No one wants to die...." can u expound a bit about this statement?
Because down through the centuries there have been martyrs for their faith in Christ. That seems like a sweeping statment."No one wants to be like Him" you did not ask me and the rest of genuine Christians around the world. Again this is a sweeping statement.
I don't think if you got buang and die (*touch wood*) .. you want to be resurrected with a deformed face right? .. duh.why? what's the story in pentecost?
Nothing happens on Pentecost other than the birth of tongues.
I was talking about after the Pentecost. -
what verses? can you expound it to us? Do some exposition on the text of Scripture.Originally posted by Icemoon:The epistles never made clear that it was a physical resurrection. The way Paul described the resurrection (so glorified) doesn't match a physical resurrection.
"teh way Paul described it doesn't match a physical resurrection"
why? according to whose standards? What should be a physical resurrection to you? what is a resurrection by the way? -
Originally posted by Ironside:
You already quoted the verses, I think you can read what you quoted right?
what verses? can you expound it to us? Do some exposition on the text of Scripture.
[b]
"teh way Paul described it doesn't match a physical resurrection"
why? according to whose standards? What should be a physical resurrection to you? what is a resurrection by the way?
[/b]
Whose standards? By the "reasonable man" test .. you study basic legality?
What should be a physical resurrection to me? Huh .. didn't the gospels have the answer?
What is a resurrection by the way? Ask the the saints! I never witness a resurrection before, much less the resurrection of Christ! -
"Read the statement in context."
"No one wants to die for the resurrected Christ............"
How sure are you? have you ask all the people in the world?
"I don't think if you got buang and die (*touch wood*) .. you want to be resurrected with a deformed face right? .. duh."
why would i get a deformed face? is that the resurrection you percieve the New Testament teach? You need to read it again or should i say STUDY IT.
"Nothing happens on Pentecost other than the birth of tongues.
I was talking about after the Pentecost."
what happened after Pentecost with regards to the resurrection that we have been talking about? -
Originally posted by Ironside:
Is this the context?
"Read the statement in context."
"No one wants to die for the resurrected Christ............"
How sure are you? have you ask all the people in the world?
"I don't think if you got buang and die (*touch wood*) .. you want to be resurrected with a deformed face right? .. duh."
*knocks head*
why would i get a deformed face? is that the resurrection you percieve the New Testament teach? You need to read it again or should i say STUDY IT.
That's why I said no one wants to be like him lah! Hai yoh!
The resurrection you perceive and Paul perceived is the spiritual resurrection. Where you get a new body and all that.
New body != physical body.
Risen Christ on the third day == physical bodywhat happened after Pentecost with regards to the resurrection that we have been talking about?
Nothing to do with resurrection. I was referring to the actions of the believers. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
1) yes, i quoted the verses....these verses show that He resurrected physically and Paul wrote them. so why say Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection?
You already quoted the verses, I think you can read what you quoted right?
Whose standards? By the "reasonable man" test .. you study basic legality?
What should be a physical resurrection to me? Huh .. didn't the gospels have the answer?
What is a resurrection by the way? Ask the the saints! [b]I never witness a resurrection before, much less the resurrection of Christ![/b]
2) the gospels wrote a physical resurrection just like what Paul taught and wrote. So why say that he was talking about a spirtual resurrection.
3)I read the writings of the saints in the Bible, They say it is a physical resurrection PAUL INCLUDED. so why conclude about the REsurrection of Christ that it was spiritual? Witnesses say it was a glorious resurrection.
you have not witnessed the resurrection of Christ. So why say that His resurrection was spiritual in Paul's letters? -
Spiritual in my case is used loosely. I just want to label it as far as possible from the bodily resurrection as detailed in the gospel accounts.Originally posted by Ironside:1) yes, i quoted the verses....these verses show that He resurrected physically and Paul wrote them. so why say Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection?
2) the gospels wrote a physical resurrection just like what Paul taught and wrote. So why say that he was talking about a spirtual resurrection.
3)I read the writings of the saints in the Bible, They say it is a physical resurrection PAUL INCLUDED. so why conclude about the REsurrection of Christ that it was spiritual? Witnesses say it was a glorious resurrection.
you have not witnessed the resurrection of Christ. So why say that His resurrection was spiritual in Paul's letters?
If you argue that Paul was referring to a bodily resurrection - prove it! Prove it from Gal and 1 Thes .. the first books to be written. -
Is this the context?
that's why i asked you: "can you expound a bit?"
*knocks head*
That's why I said no one wants to be like him lah! Hai yoh!
oh i want to be like Him even if I have a deformed body now. BECAUSE IN THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST....I WILL GET A GLORIOUS BODY. PERFECT-NOT DEFORMED AND MARRED BY SIN.
The resurrection you perceive and Paul perceived is the spiritual resurrection. Where you get a new body and all that.
New body != physical body.
Rise Christ one the third day == physical body
There are two resurrections referred about the saved: spiritual resurrection and physical resurrection. All of this are based on the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We get spiriutal resurrection at the moment of salvation here on earth. We get physcial resurrection when He comes again the second time.
Sin marred every aspect of our humanity: the immaterial part of man and the material part of man- body.
The former was saved at the moment of faith. The latter is positioanally saved now but will be realized in the second coming--we will rise from the dead with a perfect body. -
I shall DEMOLISH your quotes one by one.
1) Ro 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Never say what kind of resurrection.
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.2) 1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
Let's read the quote in its context:
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters* at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.* 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to someone untimely born, he appeared also to me
May I know what was the Christ that the Apostle Paul saw? Was it like what Peter and co. saw?3) 2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
Never say what kind of resurrection.
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.4) Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Never say what kind of resurrection.5) Eph 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Never say what kind of resurrection. In fact, the pairing up with the 'heavenly places' give readers the impression it was a glorified resurrection.6) Php 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
Never say what kind of resurrection.
Just to add, the only power from the bodily resurrection was the ability to pass through walls .. and scared the hell out of everyone.7) Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Never say what kind of resurrection.8] 1Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Never say what kind of resurrection. -
i think the burden of proof lies on you. you are the one insisting that the resurrection that Paul talkied about was a spiritual resurrection. Every orthodox Christian clearly understood it as a physcial resurrection down through the centuries since the apostles.Originally posted by Icemoon:Spiritual in my case is used loosely. I just want to label it as far as possible from the bodily resurrection as detailed in the gospel accounts.
If you argue that Paul was referring to a bodily resurrection - prove it! Prove it from Gal and 1 Thes .. the first books to be written.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION? -
Originally posted by Ironside:
Dun want .. looking at how confused you are now .. I am just gonna to yue4 miao2 yue4 hei1.
Is this the context?
that's why i asked you: "can you expound a bit?"We get spiriutal resurrection at the moment of salvation here on earth. We get physcial resurrection when He comes again the second time.
The physical resurrection is not the one referred to in the gospel account.
Meaning .. if I poke you with a javelin and you mati .. you will NOT have the hole when you resurrect physically (using your definition).
AM I RIGHT? -
Don't give me the crap.Originally posted by Ironside:i think the burden of proof lies on you. you are the one insisting that the resurrection that Paul talkied about was a spiritual resurrection. Every orthodox Christian clearly understood it as a physcial resurrection down through the centuries since the apostles.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION?
Every orthodox Christian also think the Church was right .. until Luther came along.
Anyway, I am not defending my using of the term. You can call it anything you like, the point is Paul never wrote enough to convince us that it was a bodily resurrection - with holes included. -
NEVER SAID WHAT KIND OF RESURRECTION? IT SAYS 'RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD'Originally posted by Icemoon:I shall DEMOLISH your quotes one by one.
Never say what kind of resurrection.
what kind of death did Paul knew the Lord Jesus experienced. Was it a spiritual kind of death? Was He not buried in the tomb? A physical place, a physical sepulchre?
"and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,"
By 'buried' here was Paul referring to the immaterial part of teh Lord Jesus? Do you actually believe that Paul was saying here: and that He was buried spiritually and that He rose again the thrid day according to the Scriptures.
What "Scipture" is Paul referring here? Obviously he was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures. What did the Old Testament Scriptures say? That He will raise from the dead PHYSCIALLY. -
Originally posted by Ironside:
Again, resurrected from the dead doesn't mean it has to be the way the gospels and acts describe it.
NEVER SAID WHAT KIND OF RESURRECTION? IT SAYS 'RESURRECTION [b]FROM THE DEAD'
what kind of death did Paul knew the Lord Jesus experienced. Was it a spiritual kind of death? Was He not buried in the tomb? A physical place, a physical sepulchre?
and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
By 'buried' here was Paul referring to the immaterial part of teh Lord Jesus? Do you actually believe that Paul was saying here: and that He was buried spiritually and that He rose again the thrid day according to the Scriptures.
What "Scipture" is Paul referring here? Obviously he was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures. What did the Old Testament Scriptures say? That He will raise from the dead PHYSCIALLY.
[/b]
Again, if you want to debate Scripture with me, you might have to eat the humble pie. Why do I say so?
First, I have to trouble you to enlighten us what did the OT say about resurrection? Which verses? What was the understanding? -
First, let me ask you one thing......answer with a categorical yes or no/
by your first statement here in the above post......you are actually confirming that Acts described a physcial resurrection right? -
Originally posted by Ironside:
ya la .. but with holes or without holes very different leh!
NEVER SAID WHAT KIND OF RESURRECTION? IT SAYS 'RESURRECTION [b]FROM THE DEAD'[/b]
Paul would never imagine His Lord to be one with holes and with a malnourished face. What he saw on the road to Damascus was a glorified Jesus, not the same that appeared to Cephas.
If you think what was referred to in 1Cor describes the gospel accounts, then I have to say your reading of Scripture is shallow.
You are projecting your assumptions onto the verse.
Ben, this is one result of reading the gospels first then the epistles.
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Actually Paul was so clear in saying that Christ resurrected from the dead physically here:
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
now you are trying to find out if the OT Scriptures did indeed taught resurrection from the dead PHYSICALLY.
And in your last post you agree that Acts is talking about a PHYSICAL RESURRECTION.....RIGHT? -
Acts and the gospel accounts, yes.Originally posted by Ironside:First, let me ask you one thing......answer with a categorical yes or no/
by your first statement here in the above post......you are actually confirming that Acts described a physcial resurrection right?
The physical resurrection - full of holes version.
Do not confuse with your version of physical resurrection - the glorified version, also the version of Paul. -
rIGHT?
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OH ACCORDING TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING...........THERE ARE TWO RESURRECTIONS....THE FULL OF HOLES VERSION AND THE GLORIFIED VERSION.....AM I RIGHT?Originally posted by Icemoon:Acts and the gospel accounts, yes.
The physical resurrection - full of holes version.
Do not confuse with your version of physical resurrection - the glorified version, also the version of Paul.