creationism is the truth
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ok tats all for the discussion.Originally posted by kaister:Come on davidche. Answer my questions. I won't continue the discussion if you don't answer my 4 SIMPLE questions.
I apologise for not being able to make the questions sound even simpler than they already are.
Questions are meant for one to reflect oneself.
Questions are used to guide a person's thinking process.
Case closed -
Dare I say, told you??Originally posted by davidche:ok tats all for the discussion.
Questions are meant for one to reflect oneself.
Questions are used to guide a person's thinking process.
Case closed
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What the hell...Originally posted by davidche:ok tats all for the discussion.
Questions are meant for one to reflect oneself.
Questions are used to guide a person's thinking process.
Case closed
Run away with your tailbone between your legs...
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You were right all along.Originally posted by nomood:Dare I say, told you??
This reminds me of a qoute:
Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you to his level and then beat you with experience. -
i like to use questions to guide a person's mind.Originally posted by nomood:Dare I say, told you??
After one question has been idendified and answered, the person is readily capable of going for the next step or question. After these, the person shld be able to understand.
Tell the end, after all the stair steps, comes the destination.
One isnt able to jump straight to the top of the ladder without climbing up.
Same thing, the person will not understand the point unless he goes step by step.
Of course, if a person puts a cactus on one of the ladder steps, the whole process will be disrupted. -
Your analogy is so poor, i'm not even going to try to understand it. Go read jack and the magic beans for my answer.Originally posted by davidche:i like to use questions to guide a person's mind.
After one question has been idendified and answered, the person is readily capable of going for the next step or question. After these, the person shld be able to understand.
Tell the end, after all the stair steps, comes the destination.
One isnt able to jump straight to the top of the ladder without climbing up.
Same thing, the person will not understand the point unless he goes step by step.
Of course, if a person puts a cactus on one of the ladder steps, the whole process will be disrupted.
in any case, to not have a proper stance on anything is a symptom of a weak minded person readily guided by dictation. In your case, severely so.
You claim to use questions to guide a persons mind, but in itself you deny any new form of input or knowledge by refusing to think about the other person's stance. Heck, you don't even think about what you're asking.
Classic christian conversation. -
Come back liao ah?Originally posted by davidche:i like to use questions to guide a person's mind.
After one question has been idendified and answered, the person is readily capable of going for the next step or question. After these, the person shld be able to understand.
Tell the end, after all the stair steps, comes the destination.
One isnt able to jump straight to the top of the ladder without climbing up.
Same thing, the person will not understand the point unless he goes step by step.
Of course, if a person puts a cactus on one of the ladder steps, the whole process will be disrupted.
Do you realise that you're contradicting yourself?
I also like to use questions to guide the mind. I'm trying to guide your mind by using 4 simple questions, so that you can understand the destination when you come to it
Why? Afraid that you'll find out the truth?
One isn't able to jump straight to the top of the ladder without climbing up. Same thing, the person will not understand the point unless he goes step by step.
Now answer my questions:
1. Is god/creator perfect?
2. Are we created in his image?
3. Then why do we have imperfect (maybe in your terms, could've-been-better) features - eg, coccyx, appendix, weak lower limbs, prematurely-born babies from narrowed pelvis?
4. Where is your nobel prize winning theory? -
I LOVE THAT QUOTE!!!!!!!Originally posted by kaister:You were right all along.
This reminds me of a qoute:
Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you to his level and then beat you with experience.
Forget it lar he's just aggravating you niah... dismiss him and move on.
I'm sure there are other conversations that can be engaged in with more creatively.
With Davidche, it'll just end up with name calling. That being the case, refer to quote for what to do next. -
there is a great point in your post that until now that i see.
That truth is the truth when you know it.
It is the truth when it is the truth.
Now i finally see the reason of classic conversations.
Thanks Guys!!! -
Huh? You never climb the steps, how to see the truth? You said so yourself mah, don't answer then the whole process is disrupted. Are you consciously trying to cover your ears, close your eyes and pretend the truth is not there?Originally posted by davidche:there is a great point in your post that until now that i see.
That truth is the truth when you know it.
It is the truth when it is the truth.
Now i finally see the reason of classic conversations.
Thanks Guys!!!
I repeat the questions:
1. Is god/creator perfect?
2. Are we created in his image?
3. Then why do we have imperfect (maybe in your terms, could've -been-better) features - eg, coccyx, appendix, weak lower limbs, prematurely-born babies from narrowed pelvis?
Truth is what can stand against criticisms. -
Originally posted by kaister:
Do you think you'll know the truth when you come to the truth?
Come back liao ah?
Do you realise that you're contradicting yourself?
I also like to use questions to guide the mind. I'm trying to guide your mind by using 4 simple questions, so that you can understand the destination when you come to it Why? [b]Afraid that you'll find out the truth?
One isn't able to jump straight to the top of the ladder without climbing up. Same thing, the person will not understand the point unless he goes step by step.
Now answer my questions:
1. Is god/creator perfect?
2. Are we created in his image?
3. Then why do we have imperfect (maybe in your terms, could've-been-better) features - eg, coccyx, appendix, weak lower limbs, prematurely-born babies from narrowed pelvis?
4. Where is your nobel prize winning theory? [/b]you can understand the destination when you come to it
You are contridicting yourself.
I hate cacti. err......
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Originally posted by kaister:
Huh don't post anymore leh, Davidche is clearly on a losing streak.
Huh? You never climb the steps, how to see the truth? You said so yourself mah, don't answer then the whole process is disrupted. Are you consciously trying to cover your ears, close your eyes and pretend the truth is not there?
I repeat the questions:
1. Is god/creator perfect?
2. Are we created in his image?
3. Then why do we have imperfect (maybe in your terms, could've -been-better) features - eg, coccyx, appendix, weak lower limbs, prematurely-born babies from narrowed pelvis?
[b]Truth is what can stand against criticisms.
[/b]
The more you argue the farther his nonsense posts gets pushed back.
Let others be the judge lar. -
Me too, I hate cacti, so don't be one.Originally posted by davidche:You are contridicting yourself.
I hate cacti. err......
I'm been cooperative and answering all your questions so far. I don't claim to know the truth. Just trying to have a meaningful debate here.
All I ask is for you to answer my questions. Is it too much to ask for?
1. Is god/creator perfect?
2. Are we created in his image?
3. Then why do we have imperfect (maybe in your terms, could've -been-better) features - eg, coccyx, appendix, weak lower limbs, prematurely-born babies from narrowed pelvis? -
Originally posted by kaister:
1. God is perfect
Me too, I hate cacti, so don't be one.
I'm been cooperative and answering all your questions so far. I don't claim to know the truth. Just trying to have a meaningful debate here.
All I ask is for you to answer my questions. Is it too much to ask for?
1. Is god/creator perfect?
2. Are we created in his image?
3. Then why do we have [b]imperfect (maybe in your terms, could've -been-better) features - eg, coccyx, appendix, weak lower limbs, prematurely-born babies from narrowed pelvis?
[/b]
2. Yes
3. Why do you say that they are inperfect(in your context) conditions?
They are inperfect but when you look at the big picture, i think they are still Good, i dont dare to say perfect cos i dont know it. -
Why do you say that they are inperfect(in your context) conditions?
There are people who are handicapped or mentally challenged when they are borned. Compared with normal people, they can easily seen to be at disadvantage and thus, anybody can say they are not perfect
They are inperfect but when you look at the big picture, i think they are still Good, i dont dare to say perfect cos i dont know it -
Hey .. do you need my help?Originally posted by davidche:1. God is perfect
2. Yes
3. Why do you say that they are inperfect(in your context) conditions?
They are inperfect but when you look at the big picture, i think they are still Good, i dont dare to say perfect cos i dont know it. -
Help him with fundamental questions???Originally posted by Icemoon:Hey .. do you need my help? -
Anyway, all questions will meet with an answer.
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First of all, thank you so much for answering.Originally posted by davidche:1. God is perfect
2. Yes
3. Why do you say that they are inperfect(in your context) conditions?
They are inperfect but when you look at the big picture, i think they are still Good, i dont dare to say perfect cos i dont know it.
There are 2 interpretations to your answers:
1. God has similar physical traits as us - the useless coccyx, appendix that can get inflammed if you jump around after meals, weak lower limbs prone to getting sprains. There are others but I don't want to go on and on.
Of course, by your definitions, they are not imperfect.
2. You don't know what is perfect but you say god is perfect. You said before you can't judge if something is perfect, unless you're perfect - a declaration so flawed on its own that I don't even know where to start.
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Okie, now back to your previous questions when you asked me how I know when is something perfect. The fact is I don't.Originally posted by davidche:Now heres the thing:
only a perfect person can judge whether a thing is perfect or not cos he knows better than you or me.
Do you think a person who cannot even be in the perfect status can judge what is perfect?
You used Singapore Idol as an example which i think is very good.
You find that the judges are experts in music and not just any person.
Thats because they know what is good singing and bad singing and they know the difference
We on the other hand, can give comments and stuffs but we sometimes happen to have the wrong judgement.
However, I know when something is NOT. Like the example I gave for Singapore Idol - I'm no expert at singing but I can tell a terrible voice from far far away. I can tell imperfection, I can tell flaws, I can tell if something is wrong. I can tell if something is not perfect.
In fact, we all have the same abilities, if not we won't be criticising people
Back to the human flaws that arise from our descent from apes. They are imperfections because they are not working as they are supposed to!
If you get a computer and your keyboard cannot type properly. How do you know if it's imperfect? You compare to others and you realise there are other keyboards working better than this. Similar logic applies. -
Thank you for the replies kaister.Originally posted by kaister:Thanks klydeer! Glad someone read all the info.
"Faster" was written in the context that the creator could have done better. It doesn't have to be the best. Have you ever sprained your legs? Ever wondered why we keep spraining our legs or why women always have to endure so much labour pain? It's because we humans were adapted to walk on two legs instead of 4 from our ancestors.
Our 2 lower limbs are too fragile to support all our weight and they easily give way when stressed. Also, female pelvis will have to be narrowed so that women don't walk like apes and waste precious energy (food was scarce during caveman days). Narrowed pelvis, however, would create problems in childbirth and immature human babies compared to the rest of our close relatives like gorillas and chimpanzees.
Our legs were just not perfectly designed for walking on 2 feet cos' it was based on adaptation - modification from previous design. Therefore we are imperfect. Going by that logic, if God created us in his image, it would imply he's imperfect. Kinda hard to imagine the creator to be imperfect, don't you agree?
The only logical conclusion for adaptations to exist, is because of evolution. My analogy of an engineer best describes that. If you're an engineer, why would you design a system that is so faulty? Of course not... unless you're an idiot
Hope that answers all your questions
Yes, i have sprained my legs before just like the most of us do. When the pain comes, i did complain. But when my wife took care of me. I felt Love and most of the time, it is myself who who did not take good care of my legs, cannot blame anyone esle.
Women enduring labour pains. Yes, i am sure a lot of us here do wonder, why - if there is a God, He cannot just enable women to conceive in a painless manner. Myself included. i would want my wife to concieve in a manner that pleases me....no pain, just like magic...tada ! Here, baby klydeer. But then it occurred to me, that if a child is brought into this world as such, we as parents might not be able to appreciate the love and duty of taking good care of the child. Many mothers confided to us, that when they are in labour, they are also getting into a love relationship with their child....and that they are GLAD they went through labour pains - can this phenonmenon be wholly explained by adaptations ?
Whether or not we are suited to walk this earth on our 2 feet - well, that is i believed, suitably explained in the event that transpired in the garden of Eden. Dont think Adam and Eve has much problems trouncing about in a garden full of flowers, grass, fruits etc etc......but its what happened after the Fall...well that's another story.
Personally, i believe that when God says He created us in His image - i dont think He is as much referring to the physical nature of man, then the spiritual nature of man.
When i asked my previous questions, in my mind, i dont think of God as merely an engineer. The engineer in your description above might be capable of working out everything that is "better". But perhaps with a decreasing understanding of the human condition. At least to me personally, i cringed in a so called perfect world that a few scientist today are trying to construct. I can ask a highly accredited architect to build me a nice house, but i cant ask the same person to build me a nice family in the house. God can.
True, things might physically change over time - but i always wonder why the hearts of men doesnt....especially the love for one another. Evolution might be able to explain adaptation, but i dont see it explaining the consistency of the heart of mankind (for good or for evil), which i believe, would be the core of the matter ?
My apologies if some of your theoratical understandings are misrepresented here for i have really limited knowledge of those. Just wish to say that lived in a bliss where little means much. I lived in a bliss where i am vulnerable to physical pain and being able to feel Love when i mourn for the death of loved ones, or when i dwell in the fellowship of a few good men. This i rather be, than a life which is always in a faster forward mode for alas....i wished that my perspective of life would slow down and just bask in its beauty.
Maybe....i am just aint "adaptating" to this world. -
Yes, i have sprained my legs before just like the most of us do. When the pain comes, i did complain. But when my wife took care of me. I felt Love and most of the time, it is myself who who did not take good care of my legs, cannot blame anyone esle.
I think the above explanation tends more toward personal than generally. You sprain your legs and you felt love when your wife took care of you. On the opposite side of the spectrum, a person that has train all his life for an olympic game and sprain his foot at the last minute may felt completely different from you. On the issue of labour pains, you felt a love relationship can bosom during labour. However risk and complication also arise during the long and fragile child labour and the love bosoming between one and her child may end up in miscarriage. A simple fall, which men are so vulnerable to, may be all it need to end up in tragedy.
Women enduring labour pains. Yes, i am sure a lot of us here do wonder, why - if there is a God, He cannot just enable women to conceive in a painless manner. Myself included. i would want my wife to concieve in a manner that pleases me....no pain, just like magic...tada ! Here, baby klydeer. But then it occurred to me, that if a child is brought into this world as such, we as parents might not be able to appreciate the love and duty of taking good care of the child. Many mothers confided to us, that when they are in labour, they are also getting into a love relationship with their child....and that they are GLAD they went through labour pains - can this phenonmenon be wholly explained by adaptations ? -
Klydeer, you possess one of the few rational and sound voices among christians. Indeed, building us in God's spiritual and not physical image would be a much better explanation - a reasoning that most would be willing to accept.
Perhaps like many had already mentioned in their posts, we can never understand the creator's intentions with our feeble minds. But the point I was trying to make, is to hope that people will open up their eyes to find out more about this world than to just accept things as they are. Any religion, however pure in their initial intentions, can be manipulated, twisted and misinterpreted by human politics. Isn't that what we are seeing today? Jihads and crusades, people killing each other even though they believe in the same God. It's all madness.
There are some things in the bible that cannot be taken literally. For example, the age of the earth, noah's ark, and a few others. Perhaps they are only stories that were inspired from the truth but they do not stand for the truth themselves. (I think I'm so getting flamed on this)
You're right on the inner core of human feelings, love and emotions. The spiritual side of humans has always been ignored by scientists. I'm not wrong either with the evolutionary adaptations made in both animals and humans. My theories cannot explain your findings, and neither can your religion entirely explain these observations. Perhaps there's a need for a more encompassing theory to cover all. Where's an Einstein when you need one?
I hope this discussion do not bring too much distress to good christians like you and if it did, I apologise for being too blunt sometimes. -
yes. its personal. Thats why i always stress the word "personally..."Originally posted by Tian Mo:I think the above explanation tends more toward personal than generally. You sprain your legs and you felt love when your wife took care of you. On the opposite side of the spectrum, a person that has train all his life for an olympic game and sprain his foot at the last minute may felt completely different from you. On the issue of labour pains, you felt a love relationship can bosom during labour. However risk and complication also arise during the long and fragile child labour and the love bosoming between one and her child may end up in miscarriage. A simple fall, which men are so vulnerable to, may be all it need to end up in tragedy.
Like what kaister said - we cannot be knowing it all...
but if we take it up to the enmassing of a world view to discuss a matter close to our hearts - doesnt a personal opinion count ? If not, i think we will just be discussing an understanding of the knowledge and not really an understanding of the application of what we learned. -
Not at all - on the distress part. I felt rather, enriched. Thank you.Originally posted by kaister:Klydeer, you possess one of the few rational and sound voices among christians. Indeed, building us in God's spiritual and not physical image would be a much better explanation - a reasoning that most would be willing to accept.
Perhaps like many had already mentioned in their posts, we can never understand the creator's intentions with our feeble minds. But the point I was trying to make, is to hope that people will open up their eyes to find out more about this world than to just accept things as they are. Any religion, however pure in their initial intentions, can be manipulated, twisted and misinterpreted by human politics. Isn't that what we are seeing today? Jihads and crusades, people killing each other even though they believe in the same God. It's all madness.
There are some things in the bible that cannot be taken literally. For example, the age of the earth, noah's ark, and a few others. Perhaps they are only stories that were inspired from the truth but they do not stand for the truth themselves. (I think I'm so getting flamed on this)
You're right on the inner core of human feelings, love and emotions. The spiritual side of humans has always been ignored by scientists. I'm not wrong either with the evolutionary adaptations made in both animals and humans. My theories cannot explain your findings, and neither can your religion entirely explain these observations. Perhaps there's a need for a more encompassing theory to cover all. Where's an Einstein when you need one?
I hope this discussion do not bring too much distress to good christians like you and if it did, I apologise for being too blunt sometimes.
For me, knowing about whether the remains of noah's ark can be found or not.....is not so important, as knowing for sure, that the message of God (when He inspired the author of Genesis to write about Noah) - is right for me to obey and follow. -
davidche is such a fucking idiot, he is so ignorant and stupid and keeps talking retarded crap, what the hell. please die, thanks.