Opinions of atheism
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yah .. aren't thinking, processing awareness what makes you a living being?
I don't know whether u don't get me or I don't get u. However why does having brain damage make u lose your thinking etc since the vessel holding the thinking is spirit, and spirit, if I am not wrong, does not reside in the brain. Certain drugs make u lose part of your cosnciousness. So wat happened to the spirit then ? It wonder to somewhere else ?
So if you have brain damage, you are reduced to a half living being .. a "vegetable". Not much difference from a dead person.
Of course .. whether to pull the plug or not is an ethical question. -
You don't get me.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I don't know whether u don't get me or I don't get u. However why does having brain damage make u lose your thinking etc since the vessel holding the thinking is spirit, and spirit, if I am not wrong, does not reside in the brain. Certain drugs make u lose part of your cosnciousness. So wat happened to the spirit then ? It wonder to somewhere else ?
I think you are utterly confused now.
PS: it is better to remain this way.
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I think both of you r saying different things... Personally I do not believe soul is the source of awareness. I think SIS example is apt.
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HUH .. if the vessel holding the thinking is spirit .. are you saying animals cannot think since according to the bible, they have no spirit?Originally posted by stupidissmart:I don't know whether u don't get me or I don't get u. However why does having brain damage make u lose your thinking etc since the vessel holding the thinking is spirit, and spirit, if I am not wrong, does not reside in the brain. Certain drugs make u lose part of your cosnciousness. So wat happened to the spirit then ? It wonder to somewhere else ?
Furthermore a cursory reading of Genesis will prove you wrong - because the serpent (an animal) could talk and he appears quite intelligent (according to the bible).
Let's say Genesis is poetry. Even in its poetic form, the author is telling us it is not the case that animals cannot think or have no consciousness even though they have no spirit.
Do you get me now? -
Furthermore .. don't give me the crap that the talking serpent was a miracle.
The talking donkey elsewhere in Genesis was a miracle because the text says so and it appears everyone was surprised by it. The talking serpent did not shock Eve. They just start conversing.
And don't give me the crap that the talking serpent was Satan. If God is just, will He punish an animal that is possessed by the devil?
I won't argue that Genesis represents real history because your thinking is not that yet. You can't even comprehend "poetic logic" .. so let's not go further until you have sorted out your thinking. -
LOL, ice starting to get angry liao. First time so angryOriginally posted by Icemoon:Furthermore .. don't give me the crap that the talking serpent was a miracle.
The talking donkey elsewhere in Genesis was a miracle because the text says so and it appears everyone was surprised by it. The talking serpent did not shock Eve. They just start conversing.
And don't give me the crap that the talking serpent was Satan. If God is just, will He punish an animal that is possessed by the devil?
I won't argue that Genesis represents real history because your thinking is not that yet. You can't even comprehend "poetic logic" .. so let's not go further until you have sorted out your thinking.
ha..i understand you feeling. -
No la .. me not angry.Originally posted by davidche:LOL, ice starting to get angry liao. First time so angry
ha..i understand you feeling.
I am just excited .. because I know he will have nothing [intelligent] to rebuke.
See .. I even pre-empted any possible reply. -
By the way .. my reply to SIS is also for Christians to read.Originally posted by davidche:LOL, ice starting to get angry liao. First time so angry
ha..i understand you feeling.
You read liao got any comments? -
HUH .. if the vessel holding the thinking is spirit .. are you saying animals cannot think since according to the bible, they have no spirit?
huh ?!?! I all the while has been saying tat the brain is the source of intelligence for animals etc. It is ben who say tat consciousness is from spirit and soul, and I am trying to prove tat notion wrong. Animal can think, and the source is from their brain, otherwise how do they hunt, eat or even reproduce ? I even list example of men having brain diesease have reduced consciousness over time, and people high on drug losing part of their consciousness. PHYSICAL ALTERATION to the BRAIN cause change in consciousness. It is all attributed to the brain and having spirit CANNOT answer these phenomenon.
Talking about whether animals have spirit etc, I don't care if u wanna tear it down. I support u to tear it down instead. Tat is ben stand. Get it ? R u reading correctly ? I put it simple for u to read
1. I SUPPORT thinking, awareness from brain
2. I DO NOT support thinking, awareness from spirit
(I thought tat is obvious sincre I am not a christian !)
3. I LIST examples of phenomenon when brain is physically disturbed, men lose some consciousness.
AND I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why your reply got anything to do with my stand WHEN it is NOT my stand. I don't know why u give me all the bible crap when my stand have nothing to do with the bible ! -
Some of the replies from ben tat appears to state he believe consciousness tied to the soul
11 October 2006 · 07:32 PM
Emotions fit well with the Jewish and Catholic explanation with the person having a soul, body and spirit. Extrapolating, i could say that it's the soul that enables humans n animals to emote.
12 October 2006 · 04:22 PM
oh i have no problems with this. Theologically, if consciousness is tied to the soul and not the spirit, this will not result in a contradiction.
13 October 2006 · 11:10 AM
No worries abt this. SIS, u're an Atheist and i definitely am not expecting you to subscribe to my view abt consciousness being tied to the soul or the spirit.
13 October 2006 · 11:53 AM
no no, the soul is tied to consciousness. In Judaism and Catholicism the person consists of soul, body and spirit. Animals have souls and body but they lack spirit. In this case, there's no contradiction as it doesn't go against religion. -
That is my view also .. in fact I suggested this view to him and he was ok with it.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Some of the replies from ben tat appears to state he believe consciousness tied to the soul
So what's your problem? -
You are confused?Originally posted by stupidissmart:1. I SUPPORT thinking, awareness from brain
2. I DO NOT support thinking, awareness from spirit
(I thought tat is obvious sincre I am not a christian !)
3. I LIST examples of phenomenon when brain is physically disturbed, men lose some consciousness.
Good .. when you are confused you can't think coherently.
See .. you are now on the defense.
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If your stand has nothing to do with the bible .. then it raises the question why you opposed ben vehemently.Originally posted by stupidissmart:1. I SUPPORT thinking, awareness from brain
2. I DO NOT support thinking, awareness from spirit
(I thought tat is obvious sincre I am not a christian !)
3. I LIST examples of phenomenon when brain is physically disturbed, men lose some consciousness.
AND I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why your reply got anything to do with my stand WHEN it is NOT my stand. I don't know why u give me all the bible crap when my stand have nothing to do with the bible !
for I have tried to give a defense of the biblical view - that it is not incompatible with the scientific view. If you say animals can laugh and think .. no problem 'cos Scripture never explicitly denies that.
I think you are just set on demolishing any biblical concept you come across. So when this soul/spirit issue comes up, you just attack it .. without any attempt to understand it. -
I think you have not been thinking enough .. just like some of the Christians here.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Some of the replies from ben tat appears to state he believe consciousness tied to the soul
You seem to detach the soul from the life itself. Like the soul is something outside the life. Like you can have life without the soul or something?
No wonder you come out with crappy counter-challenges like if the brain is injured the consciousness will be affected .. so this shows that consciousness is unrelated to the soul. -
I am not finished with you yet, SIS.
My problem with you is this - you seem to know more than Ben about how the soul actually interacts with the brain, only that your assertion is that it doesn't!
I'm sorry friend .. what's philosophy is philosophy .. the bible never talks about the ghost in the shell and whether the soul resides in some area of the brain or not.
The bible talks about the creation of life (nefesh chayah) and God is responsible for it. -
i keep seeing my name appear -
yes .. because you are obiwan.Originally posted by ben1xy:
i keep seeing my name appear -
please take over from here luke skywalkerOriginally posted by Icemoon:yes .. because you are obiwan.
may the force be with you -
Where's Anakin Skywalker?Originally posted by ben1xy:please take over from here luke skywalker
may the force be with you -
If your stand has nothing to do with the bible .. then it raises the question why you opposed ben vehemently.
Okay, so lets make your stand clear first
for I have tried to give a defense of the biblical view - that it is not incompatible with the scientific view. If you say animals can laugh and think .. no problem 'cos Scripture never explicitly denies that.
I think you are just set on demolishing any biblical concept you come across. So when this soul/spirit issue comes up, you just attack it .. without any attempt to understand it.
U believe tat consciousness, human consciousness and animal consciousness is tied to the soul. True or false ?
If it is false, then I really do not understand why r u even replying to the thread. Take note tat the point of contempt is Soul is not the basis of life. The point of contempt is Soul is the basis of all thinking, intellectual, awareness and consciousness of all living beings. If u do not support the above stand (according to your snake etc argument) then u r clearly confused and come in to state your stand at the wrong place. IT IS NOT ABOUT SOUL BEING ASSOCIATED WITH LIVING, BUT SOUL ASSOCIATED WITH THINKING.
If u support the souls or spirit to the be basis of all thinking, intellectual, awareness and consciousness of all living being, then clearly u have to answer the point on why does physical alteration to the brain affects consciousness, thinking, awareness etc. In fact u have to debunk the whole studies in neurology etc to prove tat soul is not tied to thinking. Why do people with dementia lose their consciousness over time ? Why do people high on drug lose part of their consciousness ? If u believe soul is the center, or vessel of all thinking, awareness etc, why don't u even give an answer to the above ? Why do u need a brain at all since its primary function is taken over by "soul" ? I have probably asked these for many times now and I began to doubt your sincerity in tis discussion. U just seems to point the other way then give a personal attack to the person without explicitly give a coherent answer to the questionsIf your stand has nothing to do with the bible .. then it raises the question why you opposed ben vehemently.
Simply because the stand DO NOT hold water. I think even a kid knows tat thinking etc concerns with the brain and not soul. Tis is not only concern with bible, but with SCIENCE as well since the theory tat brain is the center for all thinking etc is from SCIENCE.You seem to detach the soul from the life itself. Like the soul is something outside the life. Like you can have life without the soul or something?
U r NOT answering the point of content. I am talking about THINKING. I am not talking about LIVING. Why do u keep talking about living etc when the whole point is about thinking ? U don't even DARE touch about thinking throughout the reply and keep harping on living. NOBODY is asking about soul and living ! Have u barge into the wrong discussion when u read wrongly earlier ?My problem with you is this - you seem to know more than Ben about how the soul actually interacts with the brain, only that your assertion is that it doesn't!
Then why all the while NOBODY says brain interact with the soul ? Ben only says consciousness is tied to the soul. HE never mention soul interacting with the BRAIN. U keep mentioning the soul is linked to living. U NEVER mention soul interacting with the brain or even thinking ! WHy don't u prove by quoting the past replies on anyone mentioning a relationship between brain and soul ? About brain interacting with soul, why don't u state your stand clearly on wat do u mean by tat statement ? Why do u get tat idea ? Do the bible even mention about tis relationship (I did a check with the bible and they do not contain even a word "brain" ) ? The idea of the brain alone seems to have answer everythin about thinking awareness etc aptly. Wat is the merit of adding in "soul" to the picture ? -
here he comes!! see the post on top of mine!Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Where's Anakin Skywalker?
it's a duel between anakin and luke
obiwan cannot catch up
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and you know who triumphs in the end.Originally posted by ben1xy:it's a duel between anakin and luke
and you know eventually anakin will convert to luke's side.
so i hope SIS will join me to defeat the .. uhm .. devil?
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True.Originally posted by stupidissmart:U believe tat consciousness, human consciousness and animal consciousness is tied to the soul. True or false ?Simply because the stand DO NOT hold water. I think even a kid knows tat thinking etc concerns with the brain and not soul. Tis is not only concern with bible, but with SCIENCE as well since the theory tat brain is the center for all thinking etc is from SCIENCE.
Huh .. of course thinking comes from the brain lah. Else where will it come from? Your dick?U r NOT answering the point of content. I am talking about THINKING. I am not talking about LIVING. Why do u keep talking about living etc when the whole point is about thinking ?
Because thinking is the whole point about living isn't it? The bible defines life (nefesh chayah) slightly different from our perspective. Nefesh Chayah clearly could think and act freely where the non nefesh chayah couldn't.WHy don't u prove by quoting the past replies on anyone mentioning a relationship between brain and soul ?
You want me to quote you?
IT IS NOT ABOUT SOUL BEING ASSOCIATED WITH LIVING, BUT SOUL ASSOCIATED WITH THINKING.
Which is why I said .. you argue for a negative relationship between the soul and the brain.
In short the point of contention is whether the soul is related to thinking/brain. Your argue that it is not. My argument is .. why not?
And I think you are confused yourself. Read the bullshit you wrote:
If u support the souls or spirit to the be basis of all thinking, intellectual, awareness and consciousness of all living being, then clearly u have to answer the point on why does physical alteration to the brain affects consciousness, thinking, awareness etc. In fact u have to debunk the whole studies in neurology etc to prove tat soul is not tied to thinking.
so am I supposed to prove that the soul is tied to thinking or the soul is not tied to thinking? -
SIS already zhao1 jia4 bu2 zhu4 liao ..
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True.
Then why didn't u answer the para below ? U r still avoiding the question isn't it ?
If u support the souls or spirit to the be basis of all thinking, intellectual, awareness and consciousness of all living being, then clearly u have to answer the point on why does physical alteration to the brain affects consciousness, thinking, awareness etc. In fact u have to debunk the whole studies in neurology etc to prove tat soul is not tied to thinking. Why do people with dementia lose their consciousness over time ? Why do people high on drug lose part of their consciousness ? If u believe soul is the center, or vessel of all thinking, awareness etc, why don't u even give an answer to the above ? Why do u need a brain at all since its primary function is taken over by "soul" ? I have probably asked these for many times now and I began to doubt your sincerity in tis discussion. U just seems to point the other way then give a personal attack to the person without explicitly give a coherent answer to the questionsHuh .. of course thinking comes from the brain lah. Else where will it come from? Your dick?
Personal attack again huh... Just above u just say tat thinking awareness etc comes from soul etc isn't it ? Why suddenly agree with the my point all along tat the brain is the center of all thinking ? Since u agree with the above, why r u trying to prove all along ?Because thinking is the whole point about living isn't it? The bible defines life (nefesh chayah) slightly different from our perspective. Nefesh Chayah clearly could think and act freely where the non nefesh chayah couldn't.
Tress don't think, but it is living well isn't it ? Thinking is thinking, living is living. U do not put your standard saying tat non-thinking is non-living. Tis statement is obviously wrong. Thinking is not the whole point about living and u r just forcing a connection to it. From the past replies, u never explicitly mention a word on thinking. U just realise u have argue on the wrong things and trying to salvagae the situation by just hurling insults in order to stop me from continuing on.Which is why I said .. you argue for a negative relationship between the soul and the brain.
And why yes ? Obviusly u clearly avoid another point I have raised
In short the point of contention is whether the soul is related to thinking/brain. Your argue that it is not. My argument is .. why not?
Then why all the while NOBODY says brain interact with the soul ? Ben only says consciousness is tied to the soul. HE never mention soul interacting with the BRAIN. U keep mentioning the soul is linked to living. U NEVER mention soul interacting with the brain or even thinking ! WHy don't u prove by quoting the past replies on anyone mentioning a relationship between brain and soul ? About brain interacting with soul, why don't u state your stand clearly on wat do u mean by tat statement ? Why do u get tat idea ? Do the bible even mention about tis relationship (I did a check with the bible and they do not contain even a word "brain" ) ? The idea of the brain alone seems to have answer everythin about thinking awareness etc aptly. Wat is the merit of adding in "soul" to the picture ?