Some questions from Roman Catholics...
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Originally posted by casino_king:
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Something for you to chew on before I disappear for the next few days.
How does one call on "[b]" "YHWH", the name of God in Hebrew, that is translated as "I am that I am" and stands for the most sacred and unpronounceable name of God."
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ya lah...mine also not edifying. make mistake of feeding "it" again. me bad. -
---- ah, foget it, not edifying ----
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judaizers!!!!!!!!!!!Originally posted by vince69:unker,
you may want to explain what is pro-Jews for the benefits of those here wh is very lost on this term.
Thanks -
ah .. you caught the Ironside bug too.Originally posted by vince69:---- ah, foget it, not edifying ---- 
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narrow minded viewpoint!Originally posted by laoda99:judaizers!!!!!!!!!!! -
Then what is the correct biblical term to useOriginally posted by breytonhartge:narrow minded viewpoint! ? -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaizer
Judaizers is a pejorative term used by Pauline Christianity, particularly after the third century, to describe Jewish Christian groups like the Ebionites and Nazarenes who believed that followers of Jesus needed to keep the Law of Moses. Paul of Tarsus accused them of teaching that observance of the law was necessary to be justified and hence saved, i.e. Legalism (theology), though this view has been challenged by the New Perspective on Paul. These groups taught that Gentile followers of Jesus needed to become proselytes and observe the various requirements of the Old Testament, most importantly circumcision, or at least that the Jewish followers of Jesus needed to do so, with Noahide Law being required for Gentile followers. According to Eusebius' History of the Church 4.5.3-4: the first 15 Bishops of Jerusalem were "of the circumcision".
The issue was an early source of controversy in the church of and came to a head during the Council of Jerusalem. According to the account given in Acts 15, it was determined that Gentile converts to Christianity did not have to be circumcised; rather, they were asked to "abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication."
Paul also addressed this question in his Epistle to Galatians in which he condemned those who insisted that Jewish law had to be followed for justification as "false brothers" (Galatians 2:4)(disputed — see talk page):
But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. But because of false believers secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might enslave us — we did not submit to them even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might always remain with you. And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality) — those leaders contributed nothing to me. On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. They asked only one thing, that we remember the poor, which was actually what I was eager to do. [. . .] We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. (Galatians 2:3-9, 15-16 NRSV)
Also Paul implored, using a subtle turn of phrase ("cut off"): "Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law. You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:2-4). The Epistle to Titus 1:11, often attributed to Paul, is, according to some Biblical scholars, also a condemnation of these practices.
The influence of the Judaizers in the church diminished significantly after the destruction of Jerusalem, when the Jewish-Christian community at Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans during the Great Jewish Revolt.
In the second century, Marcion opposed the Judaizers. According to the 1911 Encyclopedia Brittanica article on Marcion: "It was no mere school for the learned, disclosed no mysteries for the privileged, but sought to lay the foundation of the Christian community on the pure gospel, the authentic institutes of Christ. The pure gospel, however, Marcion found to be everywhere more or less corrupted and mutilated in the Christian circles of his time. His undertaking thus resolved itself into a reformation of Christendom. This reformation was to deliver Christendom from false Jewish doctrines by restoring the Pauline conception of the gospel, —Paul being, according to Marcion, the only apostle who had rightly understood the new message of salvation as delivered by Christ. In Marcion's own view, therefore, the founding of his church—to which he was first driven by opposition—amounts to a reformation of Christendom through a return to the gospel of Christ and to Paul; nothing was to be accepted beyond that. This of itself shows that it is a mistake to reckon Marcion among the Gnostics. A dualist he certainly was, but he was not a Gnostic."
However, Christian groups following Jewish practices did not vanish immediately; though most had been suppressed[citation needed] as heretical by the 5th century, in some (particularly Coptic) churches, Old Testament practices have survived to this day, including circumcision, and in the Ethiopian Orthodox church, dietary laws and Saturday Sabbath as well. [1] -
The jewish faith is one faith which never encourages people to convert unless they are truly convinced that it is the faith in the One True God, lifestyle and laws they choose to follow . Once a jew always a jew (if you underwent the formal conversion) - that is the way of the halakha .
And the last thing a jew needs to do is criticise the religion of others openly . Some may do it within their own circles but never outwardly because it is not their business to do so . They welcome people to learn more about their religion for openess but not for the sake of conversion.
Good luck to anyone who aspires to convert to judaism - it is long and hard journey to make it past the rabbis at Beit Din. -
I heard you attend church.Originally posted by Icemoon:Who do you think I am?
what does the sentence in red mean?
You therefore cannot be a jew because they cannot enter other non-jewish religious place of worships . That is a part of the laws Jews abide by .
A gentile? Then you have probably shot yourself in what you said about Jesus not even preaching to the gentiles but Paul opening the gateway of heaven for non-jews.
A judaizer? I would rather think a judaizer will attend a synagogue than a church . They still have to abide by the laws set before them as other Jews do - that much I know about them . If they abide by the same laws as the Jews observe then they pretty much cannot attend churches unless it is their own temple. I don't know much about them except they accept Jesus as the messiah and adhere to the Jewish laws. -
actually those laws which they adhere to are not jewish laws, they are YHVH's laws. Please make that distinction. Otherwise all that Yeshua says are also jewish for that is what He was.... same goes for Shaul etc... you make as if you understand Shaul, but unless you understand that he was also jewish and would not have forsaken any of the commandments as many claim, you would misinterpret all that Shaul says.Originally posted by fymk:I heard you attend church.
You therefore cannot be a jew because they cannot enter other non-jewish religious place of worships . That is a part of the laws Jews abide by .
A gentile? Then you have probably shot yourself in what you said about Jesus not even preaching to the gentiles but Paul opening the gateway of heaven for non-jews.
A judaizer? I would rather think a judaizer will attend a synagogue than a church . They still have to abide by the laws set before them as other Jews do - that much I know about them . If they abide by the same laws as the Jews observe then they pretty much cannot attend churches unless it is their own temple. I don't know much about them except they accept Jesus as the messiah and adhere to the Jewish laws. -
That question was directed to Icemoon who obviously did not read the book of Isaiah too well to understand what the samaritan woman said. I did not claim to understand Shaul . I merely pointed the facts out.Originally posted by breytonhartge:actually those laws which they adhere to are not jewish laws, they are YHVH's laws. Please make that distinction. Otherwise all that Yeshua says are also jewish for that is what He was.... same goes for Shaul etc... you make as if you understand Shaul, but unless you understand that he was also jewish and would not have forsaken any of the commandments as many claim, you would misinterpret all that Shaul says.
They are the laws of the people who have the jewish faith . Therefore it is called for the sake of convenience Jewish laws for people who do not share the same beliefs.
Isn't there a general consensus that all gentiles are merely obliged to follow the Noahide laws as derived from the Talmud while Jews have to observe the ten commandments and Taryag miztvot (rabbinical commandments in accordance with the ten commandments) in the Torah?
Jews who believe that Christ is the messiah will have to follow those same Jewish laws- - right or not?
Am I wrong?
So if the Christians in general ( or gentiles as the Jews would call them) wish to follow the ten commandments and abide by them - would it then be an added bonus to be good in the eyes of God or YHVH as you wish to call him ? After all God made a covenant with Noah and Noah was not a jew but the ancestor of all of us in the biblical sense. -
1. The laws found in the OT or rather should I say the Torah, apply to all jew and gentile alike who choose to follow Yahshua willingly. For did not Yahshua say in the NT that we are to obey His commandments just as He has obeyed His Father's commandmands?Originally posted by fymk:They are the laws of the people who have the jewish faith . Therefore it is called for the sake of convenience Jewish laws for people who do not share the same beliefs.
Isn't there a general consensus that all gentiles are merely obliged to follow the Noahide laws as derived from the Talmud while Jews have to observe the ten commandments and Taryag miztvot (rabbinical commandments in accordance with the ten commandments) in the Torah?
Jews who believe that Christ is the messiah will have to follow those same Jewish laws- - right or not?
Am I wrong?
So if the Christians in general ( or gentiles as the Jews would call them) wish to follow the ten commandments and abide by them - would it then be an added bonus to be good in the eyes of God or YHVH as you wish to call him ? After all God made a covenant with Noah and Noah was not a jew but the ancestor of all of us in the biblical sense.
2. What is the covenant that is established between God and Noah? Only this, that God will never again destroy the earth or man by the waters of a flood. This is the only covenant that is made our sign of this is the rainbow in the sky.
3. We are now called the sons of Avraham so our lineage is one following Avraham. The ten commandments are not an option for all believers, they are a requirement. You don't follow the ten commandments to get brownie points with Yahweh, you do it because it is commanded. What does the word of Yahweh say? I desire obedience rather than sacrifice? What we do have when we fall short of trying to follow or keep the ten commandments is grace to get up and go on when we fall. This only because of the redeeming work of Yahshua on the cross. -
huh .. where?!Originally posted by fymk:That question was directed to Icemoon who obviously did not read the book of Isaiah too well to understand what the samaritan woman said. I did not claim to understand Shaul . I merely pointed the facts out.
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Actually not only Isaiah . Happen after Solomon's rule - check Old Testament.Originally posted by Icemoon:huh .. where?!
The hebrews were divided into 2 kingdoms - Judah and Israel
Judah - lineage of David were the rulers.
Israel - they deny David's line and they worshipped foreign Gods. Their Capital was Samaria
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yah .. but don't forget two? of the twelve tribes were in Israel.Originally posted by fymk:Actually not only Isaiah . Happen after Solomon's rule - check Old Testament.
The hebrews were divided into 2 kingdoms - Judah and Israel
Judah - lineage of David were the rulers.
Israel - they deny David's line and they worshipped foreign Gods. Their Capital was Samaria -
Sons of Abraham or Avraham are those whose lineage came from Isaac and Ishmael . Moses and the twelve tribes of Israel are of Isaac's lineage - the chosen ones. The other semitic people are Ishmael's people. Eitherway you have to have semitic origin to claim such a ancestry. No denying.Originally posted by breytonhartge:1. The laws found in the OT or rather should I say the Torah, apply to all jew and gentile alike who choose to follow Yahshua willingly. For did not Yahshua say in the NT that we are to obey His commandments just as He has obeyed His Father's commandmands?
2. What is the covenant that is established between God and Noah? Only this, that God will never again destroy the earth or man by the waters of a flood. This is the only covenant that is made our sign of this is the rainbow in the sky. [/quote]
God blessed Noah with descendants who will be all over the world.
Noah was not a jew but God still made a covenant with him.
Noah was the only good human being on earth that was why God decided to spare his family and him from the flood - Noahide Laws is based on that for gentiles
That's the key point I am making
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3. We are now called the sons of Avraham so our lineage is one following Avraham. The ten commandments are not an option for all believers, they are a requirement. You don't follow the ten commandments to get brownie points with Yahweh, you do it because it is commanded. What does the word of Yahweh say? I desire obedience rather than sacrifice? What we do have when we fall short of trying to follow or keep the ten commandments is grace to get up and go on when we fall. This only because of the redeeming work of Yahshua on the cross.
See Noahide laws again for the part of the ten commandments. Noah lived by a moral standard God was pleased with . And it was before the ten commandments. can you explain to a poor blundered soul like me how Noah could please God without the ten commandments?
Logically ( not biblically) I would rather think the Ten Commandments were a written reminder to the people of Israel when they came out of Egypt to abide by. More so of a contract between God and the twelve tribes of Israel. Those cannot be broken by any members or descendants of the Twelve tribes of Israel . If they break it - their punishment is biblically severe according to the Old Testment records- the people of the Twelve tribes of Israel have been enslaved by foreign kings , massacred etc for going against God's commandments
Let's not forget what God promised Noah - descendants all over the world. He had 3 sons- Shem, Ham and Japheth .
Shem is the father of Abraham and the forefathers of all hebrews.
Japtheth in Genesis 9:27 was blessed to his descendants live together with descendants of Shem .
Ham was cursed because he did not do anything but told his brothers about Noah being naked.
Now curiosity sake - What happened to the people of Abraham's brothers, Japtheth and Ham?
Surely the Old testament cannot be wrong as you are implying right ? God has blessed Noah and Noah's people are all over the world regardless of whether their lineage is linked to Abraham or not. -
Read old testament before you go further especially Chronicles after Solomon's ruleOriginally posted by Icemoon:yah .. but don't forget two? of the twelve tribes were in Israel.
Israel was the name of the Twelve tribe nations.
Judah and Israel are two names of separate Kingdoms of the same lineage. In Chronicles , Israel was one kingdom formed by people who did not recognise David's lineage as the royal lineage of the Twelve Tribes , and they worshipped foreign gods after . Judah was a Kingdom which the levites ( the priestly caste ) and the believers left Israel for, because they refused to worship idols. Judah was ruled by Kings who are of David's lineage.
Nation and Kingdom in biblical sense are different in meaning. Nation would point more towards to lineage not the name of the kingdom. -
How does this show that my understanding is wrong?Originally posted by fymk:Read old testament before you go further especially Chronicles after Solomon's rule
Israel was the name of the Twelve tribe nations.
Judah and Israel are two names of separate Kingdoms of the same lineage. In Chronicles , Israel was one kingdom formed by people who did not recognise David's lineage as the royal lineage of the Twelve Tribes , and they worshipped foreign gods after . Judah was a Kingdom which the levites ( the priestly caste ) and the believers left Israel for, because they refused to worship idols. Judah was ruled by Kings who are of David's lineage.
Nation and Kingdom in biblical sense are different in meaning. Nation would point more towards to lineage not the name of the kingdom.
I said two? (maybe more .. i not sure) of the twelve tribes were in Israel. -
I didn't say you are wrong did I ?Originally posted by Icemoon:How does this show that my understanding is wrong?
I said two? (maybe more .. i not sure) of the twelve tribes were in Israel.
I am merely explaining further.
I said read before you go further - the answers are all in Chronicles -
go further where?Originally posted by fymk:I didn't say you are wrong did I ?
I am merely explaining further.
I said read before you go further - the answers are all in Chronicles -
Correct! If you do not know, say so and not come up with delusional rubbish. You are called to be a witness to what you know, not sprout nonsense.Originally posted by klydeer:----edited------
ya lah...mine also not edifying. make mistake of feeding "it" again. me bad.
If you have no understanding, then just quote Jesus' words verbatim without adding your own gibberish in. -
Correct! If you do not know, say so and not come up with delusional rubbish. You are called to be a witness to what you know, not sprout nonsense.Originally posted by vince69:---- ah, foget it, not edifying ----
If you have no understanding, then just quote Jesus' words verbatim without adding your own gibberish in. -
wah .. CK in repeat mode
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not true wat... same message for 2 different people...Originally posted by Icemoon:wah .. CK in repeat mode -
If you have no understanding, then just quote Jesus' words verbatim without adding your own gibberish in.
tsk tsk....sigh...truly overboard liao.