Some questions from Roman Catholics...
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Originally posted by casino_king:
CK the point we are trying to clear now is that Icemoon said that Jesus did not open the kingdom to gentiles aka non jews but Paul did. Not about chosen ones who gets to go the heaven type of topic.
[b]It is the other way around, that is why you find so few Jews who are Christians. Even among Christians, many are called but few are chosen.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,'The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?'
43 "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruit.
44 He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whoever it will fall, it will scatter him as dust."
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke about them.
46 When they sought to seize him, they feared the multitudes, because they considered him to be a prophet.
Even among Christians:
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few chosen."[/b] -
Just don't preach properity OK? Jesus told the young man to sell all he had, give to the poor and follow Him.Originally posted by klydeer:Ok. i respect that this will be your last respond about yourself.
Anyways, your statements above already affirmed some thoughts i have.
Blessed day, casino_king.
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OK not talk about chosen...Originally posted by fymk:CK the point we are trying to clear now is that Icemoon said that Jesus did not open the kingdom to gentiles aka non jews but Paul did. Not about chosen ones who gets to go the heaven type of topic.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,'The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?'
43 "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruit. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
now that is the more to the point!
OK not talk about chosen...
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,'The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?'
43 "Therefore I tell you, [b]the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruit. [/b] -
Glad you approve...Originally posted by fymk:now that is the more to the point!
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Oh yea .. you 'd be surprised how I can wrangle myself out of this predicament.Originally posted by vince69:Icemoon, I give you a present, John 4, After Jesus' talk with the Samaritian woman, she believed, and because of her testimonies, many other Samaritians also believed, and He stays with them 2 days.
NOTE: Samaritians are not Jews.
You conveniently leave out verses 11 and 12 - "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" (in my NRSV, 'father' is translated as 'ancestor')
So are Samaritians descended from Abraham? From Isaac? From Jacob?
If you want to play technicality, then I lose. But my original argument has to do with jews vs. gentiles.
For more information, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans
By the way, there is the Samaritan Pentateuch which is arguably closer to the Septuagint than the Masoretic Text:There are important differences between the Hebrew and the Samaritan copies of the Pentateuch in the readings of many sentences. In about two thousand instances in which the Samaritan and the Jewish texts (Masoretic text) differ, the Septuagint (LXX) agrees with the former. For example, Exodus 12:40 in the Samaritan and the LXX reads, "Now the sojourning of the children of Israel and of their fathers which they had dwelt in the land of Canaan and in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years." In the Masoretic text, however, the same passage reads, "Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years." The New Testament, when quoting from the Old Testament, agrees as a rule with the Samaritan text, where that differs from the Masoretic text.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan_Pentateuch
So the Samaritan Pentateuch is definitely not heretical by any standard. Hence I have pre-empted anyone from using the Muslims-and-Jews-also-children-of-Abraham argument as a counter-point.
I hope I have destroyed your present. -
Originally posted by fymk:
You anyhow hoot one issit?
No offence but I am intrigued now. All I know he went to Gennesaret, tyre , sidon and in somewhere healed a gentile's daughter - I think it is a canaanite lady (matthew 15 : 21-2
, and decapolis - primarily a greek and roman settlement.
And if what you say is true, then why are there christians when Jesus did not , as you suggested, bother to open the kingdom to non jews?Then shouldn't we all convert to judaism, follow its laws and then believe in christ to be saved? I am curious about your views then.
Did not the bible which I quote :
Matthew 28:18-19
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of [b] all nations. "
[/b]
I read and read .. where does it say she was converted?
From NIV:21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
And you better explain the part in red.
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
As to "why are there christians when Jesus did not , as you suggested, bother to open the kingdom to non jews?" .. my ans is - how I know? Got Christians doesn't mean kingdom open to non jews right? -
The doctrine of the Kingdom of God [or Kingdom of heaven, though some say kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven is different] is a very huge topic.Originally posted by fymk:CK the point we are trying to clear now is that Icemoon said that Jesus did not open the kingdom to gentiles aka non jews but Paul did. Not about chosen ones who gets to go the heaven type of topic.
let me explain briefly;
The kingdom of God takes on many aspects:
1) The universal Kingdom of God
God sovereignly rules all things in the universe and even in the spirit realm-bad or good spirits.
2) THe Messianic Kingdom or Davidic Kingdom [this Kingdom will be fulfilled in the Mellinium]
This Kingdom was promised to Israel in the Old Testament. And when Jesus appeared in Israel, this was the kingdom He offerred to the Jews exclusively.
In this Kingdom however, there is a promise that if Israel will accept this Kingdom [by accepting their king] they would be a blessing to all the world [Gentiles]
When they rejected their King, this Kingdom was put on hold till the second coming.
4) the Kingdom of the Church
This was began in Pentecost and ends in the Rapture. All of those who belong to this kingdom will rule with Christ in the Mellinium.
5) the mixed kingdom form
All who profess [not necessarily converted truly] that Christ is their Lord belong to this kingdom...this is what we call 'Christendom'
Mix because this is a mix group -saved and unsaved. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and true believers belonging to different churches are in this group.
this is spoken of in:
Mt 13:41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
During the second coming all the fakes in Christendom will be exposed.
6) The spiritual kingdom
all sinners from Adam to the last day who are truly repentant and converted belong to this Kingdom. The true converts now who belong to the Church belong to this kingdom. Those who are truly converted during Christ our Lord was here belong to this kingdom. Those who were converted during Israel days past belong to this kingdom.
Those who were truly converted during pre-Israel days belong to this kingdom. those in the Mellinium who are truly converted belong to this kingdom.
When the Lord Jesus was here he offered the promised kingdom prophecied in the OT. They [Jews] rejected it and so it was put on hold. Today the form of the Kingdom is the Church.
Note: there is an overlapping of kingdoms. The spiritual kingdom and the mix form kingdom and the universal kingdom overlap in whatever time frame they may be in from the Fall to the close of time.
for example: in these age. those who are trulu repentant belong to the spiritual kingdom and also belong to the Church. And since Satan works overtime now sowing tares, there is also the mix form of the kingdom but since God rules all in the universe, all these belong to the universal kingdom. -
28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.Originally posted by Icemoon:And you better explain the part in red.
This is the principle... Faith.
Jesus came to the Jews to free them from the tyranny of Ten Commandments as the gateway into the Kingdom of God..
"A New Commandment I give unto you."
The Ten Commandments was not given to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were not under the tyranny of the Ten Commandments. In that sense, Jesus did not come for the Gentiles.
Faith was required all along... the Ten Commandments was for political convenience but the Jews mistook it as a gateway into the Kingdom of God.
Personal Faith in God. There is no Jew or Gentile when it comes to personal Faith in God. Was Abraham a "Jew" or the descendents of Abraham "Jews?"
25 Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"
27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
28 He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."
The Jews knew the answers... "Love God" is a direct consequence of being Born Again and not in "Law Keeping." -
You need Faith in God; Be Born of Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. What is the Kingdom of God? It is not something for you to understand but to experience.
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After tons of replies .. I've decided to study the Kabbalah .. easier to understand.Originally posted by casino_king:You need Faith in God; Be Born of Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. What is the Kingdom of God? It is not something for you to understand but to experience. -
easier to understand than CK?Originally posted by Icemoon:After tons of replies .. I've decided to study the Kabbalah .. easier to understand. 
i think gssq do not know what we have already discussed
thou shalt not kill=thou shalt not murder -
Strange.... I had this thought just a few nights agoOriginally posted by Icemoon:After tons of replies .. I've decided to study the Kabbalah .. easier to understand.
Too many people read the Bible superficially - ie - read it in English and don't care about the context and styles. The moment they stumble onto a difficulty, they say: ooorrrhhh! salah!Originally posted by laoda99:i think gssq do not know what we have already discussed
thou shalt not kill=thou shalt not murder
or maybe they are just reading the Bible to look for faults.... -
hmm....why all want to study kaballah?Originally posted by Chin Eng:quote:
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
After tons of replies .. I've decided to study the Kabbalah .. easier to understand.
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Strange.... I had this thought just a few nights ago
quote:
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Originally posted by laoda99:
i think gssq do not know what we have already discussed
thou shalt not kill=thou shalt not murder
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Too many people read the Bible superficially - ie - read it in English and don't care about the context and styles. The moment they stumble onto a difficulty, they say: ooorrrhhh! salah!
or maybe they are just reading the Bible to look for faults....
pity....many were once "born again" Christians.... -
just kiddin'.... relak lah.Originally posted by laoda99:hmm....why all want to study kaballah?
pity....many were once "born again" Christians....
eh? maybe the born again got born again second time.... also just kidding. -
and to think this is how I got started, looking for faults to 'shuan' my christian friends.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Too many people read the Bible superficially - ie - read it in English and don't care about the context and styles. The moment they stumble onto a difficulty, they say: ooorrrhhh! salah!
or maybe they are just reading the Bible to look for faults.... and instead of faults, I found Christ or rather He found me. -
I am like u tooOriginally posted by vince69:and to think this is how I got started, looking for faults to 'shuan' my christian friends. and instead of faults, I found Christ or rather He found me.
me gf suffered greatly too -
u mean become like CK?Originally posted by Chin Eng:just kiddin'.... relak lah.
eh? maybe the born again got born again second time.... also just kidding. -
*/speculative jokes mode ONOriginally posted by laoda99:u mean become like CK?
CE, CK, :hmmm: so similar hoh?
*/speculative jokes mode OFF -
what is the symbol for islam? the cresent shaped moon and a five pointed star... you go figure... these are the symbols used by pagan god's...Originally posted by laoda99:how do u know? -
Because Yahshua did not need to, they knew the name of Yahweh... YHVH.Originally posted by fymk:I am but a simple human being here .
If I wanted to acquire the further knowledge of understanding God - I would taken up theology and aramaic (to decipher dead sea scrolls) as a discipline.
I believe that there is a greater power up there whose name I know is God . I believe that Jesus was sent to save mankind and through his acts of tolerance, kindness and compassion, he probably hoped that we would follow his examples so that more people will convert because of the nature of what he preached.
I don't recall reading about Jesus correcting people on the name of God or saying that Judaism is wrong. Remember Jesus, in human form , was born a Jew too except he was one with a higher power and purpose- the messiah , to unite all men in the belief of God and salvation regardless of whether they were jewish or not.
What I also believe is that Christianity branches out from Judaism - the faction of Jews ,and gentiles in those tumultous persecutory days, who believed that Jesus was the saviour , were in fact our very first Christians.
What you forget my friend is that the early "christian" church did keep the feasts and ordanances of Yahweh. Yahshua would not have taught any differnt. -
liddat cross also pagan.Originally posted by breytonhartge:what is the symbol for islam? the cresent shaped moon and a five pointed star... you go figure... these are the symbols used by pagan god's... -
Originally posted by fymk:
What I am getting at is that we worship YAHWEH, not allah, that is not the God of Abraham, nor is allah the God of Moshe.
Yes you did - you mentioned RC which means Roman Catholic. [b] You get your facts straight.
Right and good in God's eyes doesn't mean that you can go around preaching your self righteous and petty thoughts on how great you are in calling God "Yahweh" or how bad my punctuation is .
My point in summary : Respect other people's beliefs and stop judging them .
Remember what Christ said to the Pharisees: let he who has not sin cast the first rock. You are casting rocks on people's beliefs and I do not believe you are without sin.
The God that the muslims believe is named Allah but still the same God we all follow . They just believe that Mohammed is their prophet but they do say something as Jesus being another prophet, while we believe Christ is our saviour while the Jews believe the messiah is yet to come forth. Look at history . It is undeniable .
God is known by many names . His true name cannot be uttered for it is powerful . Does not matter if God is named Allah , Jehovah, Yahweh, Yehovah, God, Yeshua. God of the Jews , God of Moses , God of Abraham etc . God is God - the almighty creator of heaven and earth and all things living .
My question to you is that DO YOU YOURSELF KNOW WHAT GOD IS ABOUT than what you think God is about? God is the creator - yes most christians know that . God gave us our ten commandments - yes most christians know that .
What we also know is that all major religions also preach the same moral conduct that is required - goodness is universal - you do not need to know that lying is a sin, murder is a sin etc. [/b]
Whilst religions preach similar moral values, from a "christian" viewpoint, only one thing will guarantee you your salvation, belief in YAHSHUA and thus having a personal relationship with YAHWEH.
Does it mean that because I do not agree with you, I am judging you? So now you are also judging me.... -
u read from chick tract?Originally posted by breytonhartge:what is the symbol for islam? the cresent shaped moon and a five pointed star... you go figure... these are the symbols used by pagan god's... -
by all means, be my guest, always happy for people to use the correct name of our God!Originally posted by vince69:The way some folks is using the word "God", "god" in sgforum, I think I too will have to switch to using Yahweh to address God to be able to differentiate the God we christians worship, and the "God", "god" they claim to be.
Brey, don't mind if I copy you ah