law .. law .. law
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Hmm...we seem to be looking on different perspective....Originally posted by Kelthuzad:I know, I know, the tiniest imperfection on our part is anathema in the eyes of God, and only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the perfect lamb and his blood can we ever achieve salvation... But that just begs the question; why is God so bloodthirsty as to demand for blood (even the Blood of His own Son) to be shed before He forgives? I also don't understand the logic of punishing one for the crimes of others...
God knows exactly the law cannot take away sins......his plan is to save us through Jesus, as u have said, the perfect lamb.....
Shedding of blood is a requirement to take away sins.....but note that Christ's sacrifice was complete and no more sacrifices were needed after that.
God knows precisely that man cannot save himself, which is why he need to send his son to die for us. Imagine god incarnate in the flesh, going through the whole human process just to save mankind. If u cannot see god's love, then it may not be a big deal to u also (as icemoon put it - not a big deal to him). -
hmmm.....this post confirm that u are mad......u do have split personality....Originally posted by Icemoon:Where got split personality? Sometimes I play the devil advocate. Sometimes I voice out my sincere beliefs. Sometimes I evaluate arguments from a more logical perspective.
Like if you believe strongly in the sovereignity of God, you will be predisposed towards the Calvinistic position, right?
IMH for u?
On a more serious note: by not coming to terms with urself is quite draining, and in my view very damaging to ur spiritual self in the long run. U seem confused...poor chap..... -
Originally posted by laoda99:hmmm.....this post confirm that u are mad......u do have split personality....
IMH for u?
On a more serious note: by not coming to terms with urself is quite draining, and in my view very damaging to ur spiritual self in the long run. U seem confused...poor chap.....
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YES!!!Originally posted by Icemoon:Yah. Your reply actually make sense to me.
Regarding your OT worshipper quote, is there any Scriptural support from OT that they are expecting a Saviour who will take away their sins?
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors. -
hyperactive calvinists?Originally posted by Icemoon:opps .. tell me more leh. I didn't know got hyper ones. -
Confirm got split personality.....i dun think u r sure which one of u is the devil advocate and which one is ur sincere belief....and which one is ur logical perspective....which means....u have at least THREE PERSONALITIES.Originally posted by Icemoon:Where got split personality? Sometimes I play the devil advocate. Sometimes I voice out my sincere beliefs. Sometimes I evaluate arguments from a more logical perspective.
Like if you believe strongly in the sovereignity of God, you will be predisposed towards the Calvinistic position, right?
do u give names to each of ur personality?
Well, not really. Arminists too believe, and u can have in-betweens. -
Icemoon,
And one more thing....who is Jesus to u (I am asking ur sincere belief personality now)?
Been asking u but u avoiding this question..... -
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can't I be CK? He also haven't answer the question about his belief in the supernatural.Originally posted by laoda99:Icemoon,
And one more thing....who is Jesus to u (I am asking ur sincere belief personality now)?
Been asking u but u avoiding this question..... -
am i talking to the devil advocate self? pls revert back to the sincere belief self...and answer my question lehOriginally posted by Icemoon:can't I be CK? He also haven't answer the question about his belief in the supernatural. 
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I'm quite clear which one of me is which.Originally posted by laoda99:Confirm got split personality.....i dun think u r sure which one of u is the devil advocate and which one is ur sincere belief....and which one is ur logical perspective....which means....u have at least THREE PERSONALITIES.
When you see me arguing passionately, that is the sincere belief. -
That Isaiah 53 refers to a physical saviour was never part of orthodox Jewish interpretation.Originally posted by Ironside:yeah like the apostles in their baby days. they just can't understand the words:
Mr 9:31 For He taught His disciples and said to them, "The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day."
32 But they did not understand this saying, and were afraid to ask Him.
they just can't believe why their messiah should be crucified.
isaiah 53 is indeed a puzzler to them. they only saw the glory but not the shame that the Christ would undergo. They can't even see that there are two comings. one in humiliation the other glory.
That's why I say it is contentious. Since Isaiah 53 is important in announcing the Messiah and yet the Jews miss it (it was a honest mistake, I'd say), I can only think God purposely wrote it in such a way the whole nation of Israel is/was confused. -
Shedding of blood is a requirement, but whose requirement? It must be God's requirement right since he is supposedly the creator of all things, including the requirement to shed blood and to scarifice some living things...Originally posted by laoda99:Hmm...we seem to be looking on different perspective....
God knows exactly the law cannot take away sins......his plan is to save us through Jesus, as u have said, the perfect lamb.....
Shedding of blood is a requirement to take away sins.....but note that Christ's sacrifice was complete and no more sacrifices were needed after that.
God knows precisely that man cannot save himself, which is why he need to send his son to die for us. Imagine god incarnate in the flesh, going through the whole human process just to save mankind. If u cannot see god's love, then it may not be a big deal to u also (as icemoon put it - not a big deal to him).
Herein begs my question, why is God so bloodthirsty as to demand for blood to be shed before He forgives? and whats is the logic (and propriety) behind punishing one for the crimes of others?
*Shudders...
This God of yours sound scary.... I'd just stay away from Him as far as possible -
For this question abt shedding of blood, I think u can ask God when u stand b4 him.
But the fact that he send his son to die for us, is that he love us.
If we use our "modern" / "logical" thinking to think why is this and why is that, I dun think we are going to get any answer any soon.
Faith is the word. U may run from god, but he will never forsake u.
God Bless.Originally posted by Kelthuzad:Shedding of blood is a requirement, but whose requirement? It must be God's requirement right since he is supposedly the creator of all things, including the requirement to shed blood and to scarifice some living things...
Herein begs my question, why is God so bloodthirsty as to demand for blood to be shed before He forgives? and whats is the logic (and propriety) behind punishing one for the crimes of others?
*Shudders...
This God of yours sound scary.... I'd just stay away from Him as far as possible -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
hmmm.........
That Isaiah 53 refers to a physical saviour was never part of orthodox Jewish interpretation.
That's why I say it is contentious. Since Isaiah 53 is important in announcing the Messiah and yet the Jews miss it (it was a honest mistake, I'd say), I can only think [b]God purposely wrote it in such a way the whole nation of Israel is/was confused. [/b]
now the god u believe in do it on purpose
must be your devil's advocate self speaking.... -
Yes on that part in Isaiah, it's very interesting too.Originally posted by laoda99:hmmm.........
now the god u believe in do it on purpose
must be your devil's advocate self speaking....
How in the Four Gospels, people thought their Christ will come in Glorious powers.
Have they not know have Isaiah had said?
What actually happened.
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A blood sacrifice is never the pre-requisite for forgiveness in orthodox Jewish teachings.Originally posted by Kelthuzad:Herein begs my question, why is God so bloodthirsty as to demand for blood to be shed before He forgives? and whats is the logic (and propriety) behind punishing one for the crimes of others?
Don't you find it amazing? In the Book of Jonah, God can even *change his mind* after the people repented.
Jonah 3 (NRSV bible):10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.
In contrast, no matter how hard Abraham bargained for Sodom to be spared, God did not relent. -
so what's ur point?Originally posted by Icemoon:In contrast, no matter how hard Abraham bargained for Sodom to be spared, God did not relent. -
Exactly.Originally posted by M©+square:Yes on that part in Isaiah, it's very interesting too.
How in the Four Gospels, people thought their Christ will come in Glorious powers.
Have they not know have Isaiah had said?
What actually happened.
So there is only one conclusion that can be drawn - God was trying to confuse His readers. Using proof by contradiction, since this is not possible, the Christian interpretation of Isaiah must be incorrect.
Though the Jewish people were naughty (they bo heed their prophets), it was not because they didn't understand God's word in the Scripture. God held them accountable because they understood and yet misbehaved. -
MC siam....Originally posted by Icemoon:Exactly.
So there is only one conclusion that can be drawn - God was trying to confuse His readers. Using proof by contradiction, since this is not possible, the Christian interpretation of Isaiah must be incorrect.
Though the Jewish people were naughty (they bo heed their prophets), it was not because they didn't understand God's word in the Scripture. God held them accountable because they understood and yet misbehaved.
You say one...not i say.... -
My point is .. God sees the heart and not the sacrifice.Originally posted by laoda99:so what's ur point? 
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God sees ur heart.....but not to forget...it is becoz of Christ that makes u bearable in his eyes.....Originally posted by Icemoon:My point is .. God sees the heart and not the sacrifice.
if not u already be chao tar liao.....probably worse..... -
God playing mischief u mean?Originally posted by Icemoon:Exactly.
So there is only one conclusion that can be drawn - God was trying to confuse His readers. Using proof by contradiction, since this is not possible, the Christian interpretation of Isaiah must be incorrect.
Though the Jewish people were naughty (they bo heed their prophets), it was not because they didn't understand God's word in the Scripture. God held them accountable because they understood and yet misbehaved. -
I can't see anything worse than Chao Tar liao....Originally posted by laoda99:God sees ur heart.....but not to forget...it is becoz of Christ that makes u bearable in his eyes.....
if not u already be chao tar liao.....probably worse..... -
according to your interpretation, must be lor.Originally posted by laoda99:God playing mischief u mean?
'cos He knew His people will be utterly confused, yet He still wrote it that way.