law .. law .. law
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Now u sound like an atheist, not jewish anymore.Originally posted by Icemoon:Is God like PAP?
Always harping on our sins. Why can't God just say "let's move on .. "
People already apologize/repent. What do you want him to do? It takes courage to apologize (and repent) for your sins, you know?
The real issues should be how you treat others, how you love God. Just apologize and move on.
I do not think God harp on our sins. In fact, he says:"Your sins are forgiven!" -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
No...he definitely is not redeeming just one person. Actually I dun really get what u write. Ur england too powderful for me.
This is like PAP talking. If we bother to think deeper, we'll discover the fallacy.
You said - [b]The full weight of sin made by mankind was borne by Jesus. So let me ask you, is there any difference if Jesus was redeeming one person? The full weight of sin may be lighter, but it is only symbolically!
In actual fact, he will and only need to go through the same punishment! of the same intensity![/b] -
Actually not much choice la, 'cos a sacrifice has to be offered. It has to be offered in the form of a sacrifice, meaning it is no gentleman way to die. Even Isaac was tied and Abraham almost plunged the knife. Didn't they have poison then?Originally posted by laoda99:God is a holy god, he doesn't have to go thru the crucifixion to save mankind, but he did. He chose the nails (may sound like a book's name but I am using it anyway). And this was prophesized in your favourite OT too.I do not think u understand what Jesus went through during the Crucification. The full weight of human sin was on him, not just the physical pain of enduring the crucifixion.
This is vague. What exactly is this weight? Mental stress?Sorry I dunno what is Ling Chi. I know what is Ling Zhi
Oh .. it is surely more horrifying than crucification. They cut away your flesh bit and bit, I think 365 times, from your body. Then they behead you (ling chi chu si)
At least Jesus had a full body to be buried.I think I can quote u some pple who go thru human hell in order to save lives e.g. Damien a catholic priest who went to stay with leprosy patients to take care of them and in the end was infected.
No big deal. We had many Damiens in TTSH during SARS.
But as I have said, Christians do not have to forgo their salvation. It is a different approach. It was said that Christ went to hell to proclaim to the dead during the three days that he has victory over death.
And what happened to the death? They believed in him and got a free ticket out of hell? -
Now you make God sound like PAP. You conveniently forget the red fine print after that.Originally posted by laoda99:Now u sound like an atheist, not jewish anymore.
I do not think God harp on our sins. In fact, he says:"Your sins are forgiven!"
"Your sins are forgiven .. only if you vote/believe in Jesus" -
1.Actually not much choice la, 'cos a sacrifice has to be offered. It has to be offered in the form of a sacrifice, meaning it is no gentleman way to die. Even Isaac was tied and Abraham almost plunged the knife. Didn't they have poison then?
Ans: It is no ordinary sacrifice. Do u really view it as a ordinary sacrifice which Christ can be replaceable? What is Christ to u?
2.This is vague. What exactly is this weight? Mental stress?
Ans: It is the weight of sin of mankind on him. Past, present and future.
3.Oh .. it is surely more horrifying than crucification. They cut away your flesh bit and bit, I think 365 times, from your body. Then they behead you (ling chi chu si)
Ans: Can u type for me the chinese name? Crucification or Ling Zhi, both also I dun want.
4.No big deal. We had many Damiens in TTSH during SARS.
Ans: Why everything to u no big deal. Then what is big deal to u?
5.And what happened to the death? They believed in him and got a free ticket out of hell?
Ans: this I am not sure. Probably u will know when Christ comes again. -
Is it really so hard for u believe in Christ, rather than the 613 commandments?Originally posted by Icemoon:Now you make God sound like PAP. You conveniently forget the red fine print after that.
"Your sins are forgiven .. only if you vote/believe in Jesus" -
My Engrish where got so power?Originally posted by laoda99:No...he definitely is not redeeming just one person. Actually I dun really get what u write. Ur england too powderful for me.
I was saying, there is no difference in redeeming one person or the whole of mankind because He only has to do it once!
This is so different from the chinese saying - "you die thousand thousand times also cannot atone for your sins" (emperors like to say this to their officials) -
Nay .. I don't follow the 613 commandments because God never made the covenant with my ancestors.Originally posted by laoda99:Is it really so hard for u believe in Christ, rather than the 613 commandments?
Furthermore, like I mentioned, it is not 613 anymore, because some are suspended in our current context (no more Temple, what you expect?) -
I am glad that u note that he only has to do it once.Originally posted by Icemoon:My Engrish where got so power?
I was saying, there is no difference in redeeming one person or the whole of mankind because He only has to do it once!
This is so different from the chinese saying - "you die thousand thousand times also cannot atone for your sins" (emperors like to say this to their officials)
Of coz, humans die one thousand times also cannot atone. We need Christ to atone for us. You should studied that already in your theology.
Actually I am thinking u are just making things difficult for urself and others becoz u refuse to come to terms with what u already know. Now u sound like a spoilt brat like Heng@ or someone else who frequent this forum. But unlike them, u really have no stand at all. Sometimes u can be this, sometimes u can be that.
I am right....u do have split personality! WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP! -
So what do u believe in....u list your faith out and we debate....otherwise there is nothing we can talk abtOriginally posted by Icemoon:Nay .. I don't follow the 613 commandments because God never made the covenant with my ancestors.
Furthermore, like I mentioned, it is not 613 anymore, because some are suspended in our current context (no more Temple, what you expect?) -
the ot sacrifices were shadows of the ultimate sacrifice Christ. hebrews 10Originally posted by Icemoon:In the OT, the High Priest sacrifices a lamb every year? to atone for the sins of everyone in Israel?
This raises the question of the need to believe in Christ in order for the atonement to be valid.
the animals they sacrifice were a foreshadowing of the Lamb of God that will take away the sins of the world.
Question2 “ What about those animal sacrifices they made, what was their purpose?”
Answer: Those sacrifices did not take away any of their sinsÂ…the sacrifices they made were only symbols that point forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Those sacrifices served only as shadows of the real sacrifice, who is Jesus Christ. In themselves they can never take away sins. Like any good teacher God used symbols, visual aids if you may, to teach them about the real thing.
Hebrews10: 1 Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who approach.
10:2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, since the worshipers, cleansed once for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sin?
10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year.
10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
The sacrifices made in the Old Testament did not and cannot take away sins, it serves only as a reminder to them that they are sinners. It serves as a visual aid to them of the coming sacrifice that can really once for all take away sins. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, Jesus Christ.
An Old Testament worshipper might have said these words in his heart while offering a sacrifice: “Lord God, I know that I am a sinner in need of forgiveness, I make this sacrifice of a lamb to you, but you know Lord that my trust and confidence that my sins will be forgiven is not on this lamb but on a coming Savior that this sacrifice of mine only symbolize. I know He will come, I don’t know when, but I know He will come, I don’t know what He will look like but I know what He will do; He will make the ultimate sacrifice for my sins past, present and future. And in Him alone Lord I trust.” -
I mean it is an ordinary punishment.Originally posted by laoda99:Ans: It is no ordinary sacrifice. Do u really view it as a ordinary sacrifice which Christ can be replaceable? What is Christ to u?Ans: It is the weight of sin of mankind on him. Past, present and future.
Ya la, so what is this exactly? Christians like to say Christ, or rather God in human flesh, suffered. So please explain in human terms the nature of the suffering with regards to the weight of sin of mankind.Ans: Can u type for me the chinese name? Crucification or Ling Zhi, both also I dun want.
I forgot to add - at least there was no castration.Ans: Why everything to u no big deal. Then what is big deal to u?
I mean your example no big deal. -
Yah. Your reply actually make sense to me.Originally posted by Ironside:The sacrifices made in the Old Testament did not and cannot take away sins, it serves only as a reminder to them that they are sinners. It serves as a visual aid to them of the coming sacrifice that can really once for all take away sins. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, Jesus Christ.
An Old Testament worshipper might have said these words in his heart while offering a sacrifice: “Lord God, I know that I am a sinner in need of forgiveness, I make this sacrifice of a lamb to you, but you know Lord that my trust and confidence that my sins will be forgiven is not on this lamb but on a coming Savior that this sacrifice of mine only symbolize. I know He will come, I don’t know when, but I know He will come, I don’t know what He will look like but I know what He will do; He will make the ultimate sacrifice for my sins past, present and future. And in Him alone Lord I trust.”
Regarding your OT worshipper quote, is there any Scriptural support from OT that they are expecting a Saviour who will take away their sins? -
IsAiah 53 and many others.Originally posted by Icemoon:Yah. Your reply actually make sense to me.
Regarding your OT worshipper quote, is there any Scriptural support from OT that they are expecting a Saviour who will take away their sins? -
Where got split personality? Sometimes I play the devil advocate. Sometimes I voice out my sincere beliefs. Sometimes I evaluate arguments from a more logical perspective.Originally posted by laoda99:I am glad that u note that he only has to do it once.
Of coz, humans die one thousand times also cannot atone. We need Christ to atone for us. You should studied that already in your theology.
Actually I am thinking u are just making things difficult for urself and others becoz u refuse to come to terms with what u already know. Now u sound like a spoilt brat like Heng@ or someone else who frequent this forum. But unlike them, u really have no stand at all. Sometimes u can be this, sometimes u can be that.
I am right....u do have split personality! WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP!
Like if you believe strongly in the sovereignity of God, you will be predisposed towards the Calvinistic position, right? -
haha .. those are contentious.Originally posted by Ironside:IsAiah 53 and many others.
Most Jews refuse to take the Christian interpretation.
Personally those verses are rather ambiguous, I guess the Jews use Occam's Razor to interpret and Christians are a little far fetched when they try to claim something in the future. -
to be more accurarte icemoonn my friend. Hyper Calvinist. there's a difference between calvinist and hypercalvinist. -
opps .. tell me more leh. I didn't know got hyper ones.Originally posted by Ironside:to be more accurarte icemoonn my friend. Hyper Calvinist. there's a difference between calvinist and hypercalvinist. -
yeah like the apostles in their baby days. they just can't understand the words:Originally posted by Icemoon:haha .. those are contentious.
Most Jews refuse to take the Christian interpretation.
Mr 9:31 For He taught His disciples and said to them, "The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day."
32 But they did not understand this saying, and were afraid to ask Him.
they just can't believe why their messiah should be crucified.
isaiah 53 is indeed a puzzler to them. they only saw the glory but not the shame that the Christ would undergo. They can't even see that there are two comings. one in humiliation the other glory. -
hyper-calvnist emphasize so much the soverignty of God to the point that they fail to recognize the free agency of man.Originally posted by Icemoon:opps .. tell me more leh. I didn't know got hyper ones.
note: free agency not free will.. there's a difference between the two. -
Wah...going hardcore topics liao looooh.
-
man lost his free will after the fall. since then he has become a free agent.Originally posted by Ironside:hyper-calvnist emphasize so much the soverignty of God to the point that they fail to recognize the free agency of man.
note: free agency not free will.. there's a difference between the two.
very huge topic......we will not go into this...hahaha. just some sidelights. -
Hmmm....Originally posted by Ironside:man lost his free will after the fall. since then he has become a free agent.
very huge topic......we will not go into this...hahaha. just some sidelights. -
Spot on! Icemoon.Originally posted by Icemoon:Now you make God sound like PAP. You conveniently forget the red fine print after that.
"Your sins are forgiven .. only if you vote/believe in Jesus"
One of the moral/ ethical aspects of Christianity I find objectionable is the absolute (and non-negotiable) requirement to kowtow to God and Jesus Christ. You can be a genocidal dictatorial mass murderer cum chain rapist and habitual paedophile, and you will be forgiven, but the likes of Mother Theresa will go to hell if they do not believe and surrender to God...
Sounds a little Nazi-ish to me.
I know, I know, the tiniest imperfection on our part is anathema in the eyes of God, and only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the perfect lamb and his blood can we ever achieve salvation... But that just begs the question; why is God so bloodthirsty as to demand for blood (even the Blood of His own Son) to be shed before He forgives? I also don't understand the logic of punishing one for the crimes of others... -
1. No...u meant it was an ordinary sacrifice (same as slaughtering lambs in the OT) and I have to tell u that it was no ordinary sacrifice. Though many die thru crucifixion, Christ's sacrifice was unique becoz it was his work on the cross that take away sins.
2. To put it simple, when Christ was crucified, imagine all of men's sins, past, present, future were all put on him, so that when he die he was able to redeem these sins for us. Imagine the whole weight of human sin from beginning of time till the end, all on one person. Do u still not get it?
3. So my example's (abt damien) is no big deal....but is Christ cruxificion a big deal to u? Is it not a big deal? (to someone who knows abt theology)
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quote by icemoon
I mean it is an ordinary punishment.
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Ans: It is the weight of sin of mankind on him. Past, present and future.
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Ya la, so what is this exactly? Christians like to say Christ, or rather God in human flesh, suffered. So please explain in human terms the nature of the suffering with regards to the weight of sin of mankind.
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Ans: Can u type for me the chinese name? Crucification or Ling Zhi, both also I dun want.
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I forgot to add - at least there was no castration.
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Ans: Why everything to u no big deal. Then what is big deal to u?
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I mean your example no big deal.