Righteousness through faith
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I wrote something biblical. I even quoted Scripture. I solicited for comments.Originally posted by laurence82:nicely put yourself out of blame hor
So I'm serious now.
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ok..Originally posted by Icemoon:I wrote something biblical. I even quoted Scripture. I solicited for comments.
So I'm serious now.
cont with discussion
i dont kacau liao -
Solicite? hmmm.....Originally posted by Icemoon:I wrote something biblical. I even quoted Scripture. I solicited for comments.
So I'm serious now. -
Icemoon,Originally posted by Icemoon:na bei .. I can't believe lau, laoda and CE still clowning around.
we should steer back to serious discussion.
correction, its "monkeying around", not "clowning around", must get this right else some "king" will come after you. -
ever seen serious monkeys or not? there is no reason to be serious anymore lah.... at least not in this thread.Originally posted by Icemoon:na bei .. I can't believe lau, laoda and CE still clowning around.
we should steer back to serious discussion. -
haizzz...CK dun wanna post here anymore.....Originally posted by Chin Eng:ever seen serious monkeys or not? there is no reason to be serious anymore lah.... at least not in this thread.
he go buddhism post a lot liao.....
wat abt ratings? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
okay okay serious one.... no need to invoke bad words.
Actually people before Abraham already had faith in God. Just look at Noah, or Cain the murderer.
Genesis 4:26 - To Seth also a son was born, and he named him Enosh. [b]At that time people began to invoke the name of the Lord.
Comments, anyone?[/b]
I'd assume Adam and Eve told Seth about God, hence it should not be surprising that the people at that time period is aware of an almighty being.
Not sure what else to comment liao..... don't scold me bad words hor... -
just occurred to me.... should we rename EH as Planet Of The Apes? or The Sons of Kong? or Monkey Business?Originally posted by vince69:Icemoon,
correction, its "monkeying around", not "clowning around", must get this right else some "king" will come after you. -
Temple of the Monkey God, Fruits and Flowers Mountain, Singapore Zoological GardenOriginally posted by Chin Eng:just occurred to me.... should we rename EH as Planet Of The Apes? or The Sons of Kong? or Monkey Business?
>.< -
I LIKE! .... Hua Guo Shan!Originally posted by laurence82:Temple of the Monkey God, Fruits and Flowers Mountain, Singapore Zoological Garden
>.<
Eh... better be serious... scully ice not happy and scold bad words again. -
Actually can restart the topic if you guys want
As a non believer, i want to ask
How does faith makes you righteous?
Even if someone profess to have faith in god, but continues to commit, well sins, vices, small acts of deceits, is he still considered righteous and just?
icemoon got say this before, is he right?Originally posted by Icemoon:I suppose so.
Too often Protestants use the imputation of righteousness as an excuse for their wrongdoings. No wonder they won't feel the shame after a sin is commited.
"Why should I be shameful? I'm already justified in the eyes of God through Christ! I have God's grace! Halleluyah!" -
*in Ah Beng British accent*
Brothers! I appeal for sound-headedness to once again prevail. It is apparent that this individual called CK has gotten the better of sense in here, but what more can one expect when irrationality is allowed as much talk as he did? Certainly an irrational outcome. '
Very well then the matter is settled, the debate has become intractable because a party has decided to avoid all established rules of good debate, relying on showsmanship and parlor shouting. This is most unfortunate but I call for calm, no point spoiling what good cups of tea left over a cup filled with drainwater. I shall leave CK with one question though.
If one should start with absolutely no notion of God... pray tell what are the very attributes he had been fixing onto God in the formulation of his (as I believe fatally flawed) theory of action. What are all the ideas of infinitity, no-like-cheeseness, and unknowability but very notions of God that he had somehow brought up to attack the ideas of having any notions of God.
To this question there is no doubt CK will not give a straight answer, for the straight answer to that question is one he absolutely detests (and not to mention would expose his glaring self-contradiction). He would rather goad everybody into the desert of personal insults and mind games, but we have all been down that path, haven't we? The intellectual desert of mind games and personal insults exists to him as the only solution, for it is in here that logic does not need to matter and all that needs to be done is to repeat one mistruth or insult as forcefully and as many times as possible. Apparently it is in this which he is shown a great ability for instead of actual logical discourse.
I cannot see what he wants to prove beyond the fact that such a person would be a fool, and not the fool of the holy sorts but rather of a somewhat dabolical nature. He attacks dogma only to express a dogmatic approach to his own viewpoint.
Very well then, if this is his conception, so shall it be, but it's time to listen to the proverb about not answering a fool according to his own folly, as entertaining as the monkey thing may be.
To this we end the CK debate and get on with some honest exchange for once. What do you say chaps? Isn't that a pippin' idea? -
Lets go to the scripture where this is mentioned and explained, in regards to Abraham's faith, "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." (Gensis 15:6)Originally posted by laurence82:Actually can restart the topic if you guys want
As a non believer, i want to ask
How does faith makes you righteous?
Even if someone profess to have faith in god, but continues to commit, well sins, vices, small acts of deceits, is he still considered righteous and just?
icemoon got say this before, is he right?
What is this that Abraham believe about God that cause his faith to be credited to him as righteousness?
In Roman 4 Paul explained it, "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."
what does this means? meaning,
This faith, the basis of us being justified, the faith in the finished and completed work of Christ, receiving the gift of salvation by grace from God relieing completely on the finished work of Christ.
It is this faith in God that is to be declared as righteousness.
The faith of a little child, full dependency on God.
Roman 4 : 1-5
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
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*In Chao Ah Beng Singlish accent*Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:*in Ah Beng British accent*
mai tuo liao, ai kong faster kong, later ah hong lip lai, long zhong monkey liao.
*literal translation*
don't wait anymore, want to discuss have to do it now, else later certain "king" will come in and change everyone into monkeys
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
this is sad but true, that there do exist some among us that use this as an excuse to do wrong, but again, this can only cast doubts about their conversion experience.
I suppose so.
Too often Protestants use the imputation of righteousness as an excuse for their wrongdoings. No wonder they won't feel the shame after a sin is commited.
"Why should I be shameful? I'm already justified in the eyes of God through Christ! I have God's grace! Halleluyah!"
What does it means to no longer live under law, but under grace (some also call this "under the Spirit of life"? does this means we can sin or use this as a licence to sin? Most Certainly Not!
Does this means christians don't do wrongs? off course not, we are still humans, we still make mistakes. Just that with grace, there is now a safety net so that we after we had fallen can now stand up, and start over again.
The cycle of sin (and addiction),
Fear of being condemn, bring bondage of Guilt leading to resignation to the act of sin (or addiction).
Bring in Love of God leading to assurance of forgiveness through Christ, will break free the bondage of guilt leading to hope of being able to change and freedom. -
Actually this is the answer I am most interested, coz well, i cant talk about god and all that and have to focus on human behaviour instead.Originally posted by vince69:this is sad but true, that there do exist some among us that use this as an excuse to do wrong, but again, this can only cast doubts about their conversion experience.
What does it means to no longer live under law, but under grace (some also call this "under the Spirit of life"? does this means we can sin or use this as a licence to sin? Most Certainly Not!
Does this means christians don't do wrongs? off course not, we are still humans, we still make mistakes. Just that with grace, there is now a safety net so that we after we had fallen can now stand up, and start over again.
The cycle of sin (and addiction),
Fear of being condemn, bring bondage of Guilt leading to resignation to the act of sin (or addiction).
Bring in Love of God leading to assurance of forgiveness through Christ, will break free the bondage of guilt leading to hope of being able to change and freedom.
I think the one highlighted in red is a suggested solution?
Now i want to bring this further
The mindboggling thing is this. What if a person for example, steals from his neighbour, but chooses not to see it as stealing, therefore, he has not committed a sin, by his view. He could probably use other reasons such as borrowing, merely getting what he deserves, it is allright to take from his richer neighbour etc.
As a third party and a Christian, what would you do? -
Piangz...Originally posted by laurence82:Actually this is the answer I am most interested, coz well, i cant talk about god and all that and have to focus on human behaviour instead.
I think the one highlighted in red is a suggested solution?
Now i want to bring this further
The mindboggling thing is this. What if a person for example, steals from his neighbour, but chooses not to see it as stealing, therefore, he has not committed a sin, by his view. He could probably use other reasons such as borrowing, merely getting what he deserves, it is allright to take from his richer neighbour etc.
As a third party and a Christian, what would you do?
is it possible to read his mind? since I wouldn't be able to, how would I know what's going on inside there? since I do not know what is going on in his mind, then the most basic and simple path to take.
call 999, report police lah.
"This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. ~Zech 7:9
administer true justice. there are things we can do, there are also things we can't do. there are times by confronting the wrong doer, may bring remorse and repentence and that person may change for the better, other times, we need to simply allow justice/law of the land to run its course. -
my hypothetical case assumes the third party knows larOriginally posted by vince69:Piangz...
is it possible to read his mind? since I wouldn't be able to, how would I know what's going on inside there? since I do not know what is going on in his mind, then the most basic and simple path to take.
call 999, report police lah.
"This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. ~Zech 7:9
administer true justice. there are things we can do, there are also things we can't do. there are times by confronting the wrong doer, may bring remorse and repentence and that person may change for the better, other times, we need to simply allow justice/law of the land to run its course.
>.
but i agree, sun qi zi ran -
Since you say you are a non Christian....Originally posted by laurence82:my hypothetical case assumes the third party knows lar
>.
but i agree, sun qi zi ran
Just to clear up your mind. The Jews believed that the way to know God is by "works;" doing good and following the law.
Jesus came along and reminded everybody that it is by Faith and Faith alone.
But the Christian nowadays have gone back to pre Jesus times and insist that the way to know God is by being a good person.
To be considered a good person, you "believe" Jesus sacrificed himself for you. It is still the "I must be a good person to know God" Jewish beliefs with a twist; nevertheless it is the same "I must be a good person to know God."
You can see the problem immediately because every Christian continues to sin. There is also the issue of how good is good enough? During Jesus times, it was just like what you see during the Taleban rule in Afganistan. Cannot do this and that and women cannot this and that.
There is no such thing as I sin and as long as I believe in Jesus, it is OK. Try this, go and kill somebody and then say "I belive in Jesus, I believe in Jesus." You think God will come down from "heaven" and tell the judge; hey he believes in Jesus, let him go?" You will hang for sure if you get caught.
You will get your just deserts if you sin.
On the other hand don't imagine for a moment that the way to know God is by getting rid of sin (whether by following the law or believing in Jesus.) It is by Faith in God. Only people who have come to know God by faith will tel you this. In some chuches they go so far as to preach prosperity. It is selling something that people want to hear and so the church is packed. Based on what I know, it is nevertheless an abomination to God. You cannot use God's name in vain even if it is to pack people into churches. You are more blessed even if the church is as poor as a church mouse and nobody comes.
Ask the Christians here to quote you the words of Jesus explaning all the paragraphs above this one.
Justification by Faith does not refer to "no punishment for sins."
According to Jewish beliefs; you cannot come to know God unless you are "justified." You must have the qualifications. It refers to the beliefs that to know God you need to be a good person. To be a good person you must follow the LAW. To be justified, you must fufill the LAW. This is what Jesus ever so politely tried to tell the Jews is in error. They would have none of it. Did you watch Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ? Well Jesus was willing to die horribly for his stand.
This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ; that to come to God, to know God, to have a relationship with God; to Enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.... is by Faith in God. Not by being a good person or by fufilling the law (justification by Law) but justification by Faith. Faith in God.
Jesus died a horrible death to announce His Gospel to the world and His disciples went all the way back to undo His sacrifice and preach their own gospel; you must be a good person before you can know God. Instead of you must have Faith in God before you can enter into God's Kingdom.
The term "justification ' by faith is for the Jews to understand, not for you. You only need to know that Faith is the key to enter into the kingdom of God.
So while some Christians get it, that to know God is by Faith and not by the beliefs that you must be a good person either by following the law or believing in Jesus, others think that as long as they are good people (by believing in Jesus' sacrifice) that's it. They then go about doing Christian activities and never enter into the Kingdom of God.
The Jews during Jesus times knew exactly what Jesus was trying to say and they rejected it. The Christians nowadays are just "blur." They live their lives exactly like you, a non christian, not having a relationship with God. They do a lot of Christian activities, everything except having a relationship with God. most of them as I can see anyway. Not all of them.
Simply put,
Sin will bring you your just desserts whether you believe or not; whether you know God (have a relationship with God) or not.
Faith is what you need, to come to know God and for a relationship with God.
You will notice that what I have just said does not say anything about God other than you need faith to get to know God. There is only one God. Read my previous few posts. Knowing God is entering into the kingdom of God, here and now and not after you die.
The focus of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is Faith in God. Not How to become a good person 101 and not How to become prosperous 101. The Christians in Singaporeans resort to these aims because, like Jesus said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man (meaning most Singaporeans) to enter the kingdom of God” (Matthew 19:24. Similar verses are in Mark 10:25 and Luke 18:25).
Do you want a relationship with God? That is entirely up to you. If you want it, want to "enter into the Kingdon of God," only Faith will get you there. So what remains is:
What is Faith in God? -
Originally posted by casino_king:duplicate
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this thread was bumped up at least twice.....
turning out to be a monkey bait????
can we rename it to "peanuts"???? -
Monkeys not only jump around but jump to conclusions as well.
After so long in sgf; don't monkeys know that every time you edit the post it goes up to the top of the latest? -
of course I know posts get pushed up...
but you wrote at 4 plus am edited at 9 am, and 9.40+ am.... so unsure of your statements? need to edit so many times?
no need to sleep ah?
monkeys go to another park already lah... -
Monkeys not only jump around but jump to conclusions as well again.
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Originally posted by casino_king:
Orang utans also jump to conclusions.... like I'd say same same lah....
Monkeys not only jump around but jump to conclusions as well [b]again.[/b]