Do you consume "unclean" food?
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I think we have just highlighted the different situations we encountered and how we handled, to the best of intention. No offence, if there is, my humble apology.Originally posted by vince69:Bro,
did I for one moment said what you did was wrong? if there is, I apologise for the mis-comm.
I do understand why you did what you did, nothing wrong with that.
I did what I did out of respect for my parents as they are not comfortable with it. Don't think anything wrong also.
Just different situation calls for different response.
as for whether eating will cause anyone to fall, I can only pray that my actions will not cause anyone to fall.
God Bless.
Have a good day. -
yes! exactly. but for me. if they tell me its already sacrificed for idols, i won't eat it. if they didn't say anything. its alright for me.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Look at it this way.... holding a joss stick does not make one unclean either. The point in the verses quoted by Ironside (I am glad he did it, 'cos most of you know that I do not like to quote verses) is that there is a public testimony one need to account for when dealing with non-Christians.
If the meaning of holding joss sticks and eating food offered to idols has a different connotation to the other people, we should be mindful of what we do. If the people around us feel that such food is meant for the dead and is an intrinsic part of that worship ritual, then I might want to avoid the food. If the people around me feel that once the ritual is over, food is food, than I have no issue with gobbling down that chicken drumstick.
The motive for whether one should or should not eat food is not for the Christian but for the non-Christian.
In simple English (or Hokkien
) --- tze tong! -
thank you for putting it in a simple form. Just one more to add, very often it is the Christians who comment on another bro eating such food. No non christians friends of mine ever asked me if it is alright for me to eat.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Look at it this way.... holding a joss stick does not make one unclean either. The point in the verses quoted by Ironside (I am glad he did it, 'cos most of you know that I do not like to quote verses) is that there is a public testimony one need to account for when dealing with non-Christians.
If the meaning of holding joss sticks and eating food offered to idols has a different connotation to the other people, we should be mindful of what we do. If the people around us feel that such food is meant for the dead and is an intrinsic part of that worship ritual, then I might want to avoid the food. If the people around me feel that once the ritual is over, food is food, than I have no issue with gobbling down that chicken drumstick.
The motive for whether one should or should not eat food is not for the Christian but for the non-Christian.
In simple English (or Hokkien ) --- tze tong!
In the era of the NT, Paul encountered the problem because the Jewish ppl could not run away from the teaching of Moses, which was part of their tradition for thousands of years. here in our society, we are talking food that was offered in other religious rituals. I often wonder who started this thing about Christians cannot eat food offered to idol. Anything said in the Bible?? -
Well, Paul had stated plenty of guidelines in 1 Corinthians. The background of this letter was that the folks in Corinth has plenty of temples and worship many deities. As such the guidelines were to the Christians in Corinth that because they are of Christ, the "idolised" food has now power over them, yet because of the theme of love in 1 Corinthians, everything has to be done in love. If by consuming these food, though powerless and meanless from the theological standpoint, may cause the non-Christians to stumble, then the Christians should refrain from doing so.Originally posted by sgdiehard:thank you for putting it in a simple form. Just one more to add, very often it is the Christians who comment on another bro eating such food. No non christians friends of mine ever asked me if it is alright for me to eat.
In the era of the NT, Paul encountered the problem because the Jewish ppl could not run away from the teaching of Moses, which was part of their tradition for thousands of years. here in our society, we are talking food that was offered in other religious rituals. I often wonder who started this thing about Christians cannot eat food offered to idol. Anything said in the Bible??
I'd explained this to my non-Christians parents and they now understood.
On the point of Christians commenting on another brother.... personally, (own observation) there are still Christians who are still quite pantang - this one Satanic, that one evil, the other one no good, and somemore these others don't please God......
Then there are others who'd take ONE verse from Scripture and carve it in their foreheads, refusing to consider the context, or any cross reference to other parts of the Bible that will show more light in Biblical translation. -
My parents were not worshipper of any Chinese deities, just traditional ancestor worship. So the clashes were always between My God and Our ancestor which is much tougher than the clashes between My God and Your gods.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Well, Paul had stated plenty of guidelines in 1 Corinthians. The background of this letter was that the folks in Corinth has plenty of temples and worship many deities. As such the guidelines were to the Christians in Corinth that because they are of Christ, the "idolised" food has now power over them, yet because of the theme of love in 1 Corinthians, everything has to be done in love. If by consuming these food, though powerless and meanless from the theological standpoint, may cause the non-Christians to stumble, then the Christians should refrain from doing so.
I'd explained this to my non-Christians parents and they now understood.
On the point of Christians commenting on another brother.... personally, (own observation) there are still Christians who are still quite pantang - this one Satanic, that one evil, the other one no good, and somemore these others don't please God......
Then there are others who'd take ONE verse from Scripture and carve it in their foreheads, refusing to consider the context, or any cross reference to other parts of the Bible that will show more light in Biblical translation.
My father never forced me to hold joss sticks but some Christians even frown when I bowed to show respect. These "pantang" Christians had not helped in making some non Christians understand Christianity better. In fact, non Christians see these "pantang" behavior no difference from other religious behaviors, e.g. Buddist don't eat beef, Muslims don't eat pork.
Thank God, my parents are Christians today, it is the grace of God, answering the prayers of Christians relatives and friends around them, through the work of the Holy Spirit that changed their life. It was not obvious that it was the behaviors of Christians in general, that had anything to do with that.
Have your parents accepted the salvation? -
mine did. haha.. my life damn complicated sia
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Congrats!Originally posted by dumbdumb!:mine did. haha.. my life damn complicated sia
but what has your complicated life anything to do with that? -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:My parents were not worshipper of any Chinese deities, just traditional ancestor worship. So the clashes were always between My God and Our ancestor which is much tougher than the clashes between My God and Your gods.
My father never forced me to hold joss sticks but some Christians even frown when I bowed to show respect. These "pantang" Christians had not helped in making some non Christians understand Christianity better. In fact, non Christians see these "pantang" behavior no difference from other religious behaviors, e.g. Buddist don't eat beef, Muslims don't eat pork.
Thank God, my parents are Christians today, it is the grace of God, answering the prayers of Christians relatives and friends around them, through the work of the Holy Spirit that changed their life. It was not obvious that it was the behaviors of Christians in general, that had anything to do with that.
Have your parents accepted the salvation? Good for you.... my parents have evolved to Kuan Yin worshipping to no religion....
At the end of the day, it's their choice.... or to phrase it in politically correct Christian-speak: let the Holy Spirit do his work -
Hmm, i just dont understand one part. After what you said, why is it still an issue for the non christians than christians?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Look at it this way.... holding a joss stick does not make one unclean either. The point in the verses quoted by Ironside (I am glad he did it, 'cos most of you know that I do not like to quote verses) is that there is a public testimony one need to account for when dealing with non-Christians.
If the meaning of holding joss sticks and eating food offered to idols has a different connotation to the other people, we should be mindful of what we do. If the people around us feel that such food is meant for the dead and is an intrinsic part of that worship ritual, then I might want to avoid the food. If the people around me feel that once the ritual is over, food is food, than I have no issue with gobbling down that chicken drumstick.
The motive for whether one should or should not eat food is not for the Christian but for the non-Christian.
In simple English (or Hokkien ) --- tze tong! -
From Kuan yin Worshipping to no religion? I feel sad for them...they are deviating away from god?Originally posted by Chin Eng: Good for you.... my parents have evolved to Kuan Yin worshipping to no religion....
At the end of the day, it's their choice.... or to phrase it in politically correct Christian-speak: let the Holy Spirit do his work -
Either one have no god mahOriginally posted by shade343:From Kuan yin Worshipping to no religion? I feel sad for them...they are deviating away from god?
Kuan Yin isnt a god by the way, at least by Buddhist definition. -
Well, Im assuming they were buddhist...Originally posted by laurence82:Either one have no god mah
Kuan Yin isnt a god by the way, at least by Buddhist definition. -
For Christians who understand the reason behind food offered to idols, than such food has no issue.Originally posted by laurence82:Hmm, i just dont understand one part. After what you said, why is it still an issue for the non christians than christians?
For non-Christians who ascribe a ritual or tradition to such food, than Christians consuming such will be seen as a partake of the same ritual or tradition.
However, if the non-Christians has no issue with these food, than everyone's happy.... the food itself is not the problem.
.... no different from me asking my Hindu buddy if he minded if I order steak at jack's place, or even if he minded if I ate meat during those days he is abstaining from meat. -
Personally, it's not a problem.... I've always hold the belief that each one is free to believe as he sees fit.Originally posted by shade343:From Kuan yin Worshipping to no religion? I feel sad for them...they are deviating away from god?
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But how about Christians looking at another Christian eating food offerred to gods? I thought that was the original issue here?Originally posted by Chin Eng:For Christians who understand the reason behind food offered to idols, than such food has no issue.
For non-Christians who ascribe a ritual or tradition to such food, than Christians consuming such will be seen as a partake of the same ritual or tradition.
However, if the non-Christians has no issue with these food, than everyone's happy.... the food itself is not the problem.
.... no different from me asking my Hindu buddy if he minded if I order steak at jack's place, or even if he minded if I ate meat during those days he is abstaining from meat. -
Originally posted by laurence82:But how about Christians looking at another Christian eating food offerred to gods? I thought that was the original issue here?
this truly is the original question. -
I have no problem with that, as long as the consumption of the food is NOT during a religious ritual, but I am sure lots of Christian have issues with such situations.Originally posted by laurence82:But how about Christians looking at another Christian eating food offerred to gods? I thought that was the original issue here?
I'd be first to admit the some Christians have lots of issues about what cannot/can do.... from music, to movies, to food, to dressing, to entertainment.
Of course having said that I'd avoid the pau that's left in the open for too long, got dirt, joss stick dust, etc etc - solely from the hygiene standpoint.....
The chicken, after reheat, serve during dinner, no problem. -
Hmm, i read before that reheating food or water pose some health risk.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I have no problem with that, as long as the consumption of the food is NOT during a religious ritual, but I am sure lots of Christian have issues with such situations.
I'd be first to admit the some Christians have lots of issues about what cannot/can do.... from music, to movies, to food, to dressing, to entertainment.
Of course having said that I'd avoid the pau that's left in the open for too long, got dirt, joss stick dust, etc etc - solely from the hygiene standpoint.....
The chicken, after reheat, serve during dinner, no problem.
I go check it out. -
I only go according to bible lah. In bible where got char kway teow, bak chor mee etc? If the regulation on unclean foods was good for the Jews(who are still God's people) then & now, why can't Christians follow albeit not religiously as in go to hell if take them? They are also human. We are also human. But we gentiles. They God's people. When Christ came, only then are we accepted into God's kingdom by the blood covenant. Or else we like hooligans or barbarians to them.Originally posted by Chin Eng:vince has already given a very good explanation on the Mark passage so I won't go there.
according to your definition of "unclean food containing poison", everything that is put on the table is unclean.... your char kway teow, bak chor mee, chicken rich, roti prata, and nasi lemak will kill you eventually. Do you take all these? Or you have a special diet of manna?
We destroy our health by not taking things in moderation and not exercising, which has got nothing to do with the Leviticus context of unclean food and why in the NT, there is no such prohibition.
In NT, all things are permissible for us, but not all things are good for us. Paul said it. Can Christians smoke or drink? No prohibition specifically what. Where did you see Thou shalt not drink alcohol or Thou shalt not smoke? Then we can say since we are saved by grace thru faith, we can smoke & drink. -
Again, I said unclean foods as listed in the bible not our modern scientific understanding. God is much more knowledgeable than our scientists right?Originally posted by Chin Eng:I will never be bold enough to make such a claim, and a claim you did make!
So I ask you - what is unclean food in the modern context? high in cholesterol? raw (uncooked) food? high protein diet? the can of Coke with the high sugar content? the maggi mee with the salt? -
Originally posted by Ironside:
Again it comes to grace vs law. Do we forsake Moses' laws completely?
Hello there my friend.
About your question: it is good and profitable for us if we understand the different dispensations God has set for us man. Failure to understand this will result in cofusion as to comprehending the Bible.
For example:
Why has God prohited the Israelites here in eating certain kinds of meat while in Genesis 1:29 we are told that they are to be vegeterian only. No meat at all.
Ge 1:29 "And God said, "[b]See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food."
And then again in Genesis 9:1-7 we are again told that they can now eat meat:
Ge 9:1 "So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.
2 "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand.
3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.
4 "But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
And then again in the Christian dispensation we are told:
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
This does not mean that God is fickle and unstable in His ways. It means, however, that there is a divine program for the ages. Though this is a very lengthy topic to tackle. Let it be enough though that we are now living under the Church Age. And it's precepts towards food is that one there in Timothy.
Like the command to build an ark was commanded to Noah only we are not under these regulations about food and etc.
Heb 9:9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--
10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
With regards to offerings:
we are not under the sacrificial offerings. WE no longer sacrifice goats and lambs to a priest in this dispensation. Interestingly however, in the dispensation of the coming Mellinium, the sacrifices will be observed and practiced again as prophesied in the Old TEstament.
With regards to taking another human beings life:
In Genesis prior to the flood God absolutely prohibits taking another human beings life, but after the Flood, God allows capital punishment under the governmental aurthority of man.
the point is this:
We are now in the Christian dispensation. And what God has set up with regards to our rule of life in this dispensation we are under duty to fulfill.
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That's why we have to take the bible as a guide as to what is clean or unclean not by scientific claims by human scientists. BUt claims by God Himself if you take the bible to be God's word.Originally posted by sgdiehard:I don't even acknowledge those idols as gods so it is not an issue to me, unless, if they tell me that eat already you will be blessed and have peace, then die die also don't eat.
If you are the only Christian in a family who worship all kinds of idols, you will need to be very careful how we declare our stand on such issue. And I think it is better to discuss how we handle such situation rather than what is clean and what is not clean.
If it is unclean for us, then should we throw the food away? Are we allowed to donate what we consider unclean to non believers??? If one's grandmother, the only non-believer in the family, laid chickens and all the food at the tomb of his grandfather during Qingmin, and after that, should the family eat or should they go McDonald and let the grandmother finish up everything, or throw away??
Now chicken and ducks are not safe cause of bird flu; mutton is not safe cause the its fat is bad for heart; beef is not safe cause of mad cow disease; pork is also not safe cause of don't know what; plus residual pesticides, coloring, preservative, ....so what food is clean?? -
But i read their literature & somewhere they said God will take vengeance on all those who disobey the commandments. They are very strict on law & grace.Originally posted by shade343:No. They dont teach that. They only advocate healthy eating using the bible as a guide. -
But Paul did say also we dont partake food with demons & also eat from the holy communion.Originally posted by Ironside:Hello there my friend
1Co 8:8 What we eat, however, will not bring us nearer to God. We lose nothing by not eating this food [offered to idols], and we gain nothing by eating it.
Ro 14:14 Through my union with the Lord Jesus, I know and am persuaded that nothing is 'defiling in itself.' A thing is 'defiling' only to him who holds it to be so.
Ro 14:15 If, for the sake of what you eat, you wound your Brother's feelings, your life has ceased to be ruled by love. Do not, by what you eat, ruin a man for whom Christ died!
Ro 14:17 For the Kingdom of God does not consist of eating and drinking, but of righteousness and peace and gladness through the presence of the Holy Spirit. -
It is not so simple. Holding joss stick means worshipping the demons behind the idols. Why still hold joss stick? Afraid of persecution? When I was a hot Christian, I dont hold joss sticks even if my parents worship idols. But when i lost my fervour, I held joss sticks & worshipped false gods. You dont know the demonic forces behind them. It's not so simple. When my mum converted already, she still go and hold joss stick & she got attacked by demons!Originally posted by Chin Eng:Look at it this way.... holding a joss stick does not make one unclean either. The point in the verses quoted by Ironside (I am glad he did it, 'cos most of you know that I do not like to quote verses) is that there is a public testimony one need to account for when dealing with non-Christians.
If the meaning of holding joss sticks and eating food offered to idols has a different connotation to the other people, we should be mindful of what we do. If the people around us feel that such food is meant for the dead and is an intrinsic part of that worship ritual, then I might want to avoid the food. If the people around me feel that once the ritual is over, food is food, than I have no issue with gobbling down that chicken drumstick.
The motive for whether one should or should not eat food is not for the Christian but for the non-Christian.
In simple English (or Hokkien ) --- tze tong!