SMRT trials MAN double-decker bus
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
even got 3 doors does not necessary mean ppl will go to back of buses.
just go and look at those bendies running on intratown/feeder. the trailer portion look like got ghost there when front part are with lots of standees...
I did. The trailer portion do have standees, even though admittedly not as sardined as the front.
But at least 1. There are still more ppl gg back than gg up and 2. Unloading times are significantly faster. This applies to tri door DDs too.
I DO suggest YOU to look at 222 Bedok Stn towards Fengshan during PM peak. Maybe you will understand what I mean.
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
no one know who will win... maybe Volvo buses may come up with some design.. or even scania.. or maybe china brand....
dun be surprise later on that some china brand won the tender with its lowest cost (nowadays, around 80-90 % of the new private buses are mostly china brand)...
Trust me, Volvo will def lose if purely based on price...
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
That is possible for DDs, but for a very different reason.
ADL will have to come up with something better than Enviro200 to stand a chance in LTA's future SD procurement.
To begin with I doubt LTA has plans to bring in any more new SDs... At least for the next decade...
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
To begin with I doubt LTA has plans to bring in any more new SDs... At least for the next decade...
they bought more A22s and citaros.. on top of existing order
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
I did. The trailer portion do have standees, even though admittedly not as sardined as the front.
But at least 1. There are still more ppl gg back than gg up and 2. Unloading times are significantly faster. This applies to tri door DDs too.
I DO suggest YOU to look at 222 Bedok Stn towards Fengshan during PM peak. Maybe you will understand what I mean.
how sure u r that there are more ppl going to the back then to go up?
why dun u go and observe sv410 DD from 6pm to 10pm?and also observe those DDs (13/52/88) from Bishan St 22 to Bishan Mrt..
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
Trust me, Volvo will def lose if purely based on price...
waiting to see LTA buy MIC buses....
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
how sure u r that there are more ppl going to the back then to go up?
why dun u go and observe sv410 DD from 6pm to 10pm?and also observe those DDs (13/52/88) from Bishan St 22 to Bishan Mrt..
Okay maybe there isnt a diff.
But the 222 example tells u precisely how DDs causes horrendously long layover times. At least for the 2 door ones.
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
waiting to see LTA buy MIC buses....
They alr did! BYD K9.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
They alr did! BYD K9.
i mean in bulk..... looking at their price, wont be surprise that china can quote lower prices...in the same spec...
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LTA didn't purchase the BYD, it's just simply loaned to them by the local BYD dealer for trials. I also don't think LTA will simply purchase the cheapest quoted, as they need to take into account the quality/support given by the manufacturer and also maintain an overall good public image (they wouldn't look good if they started purchasing solely Chinese made buses, or worse still if it starts breaking down often).
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Originally posted by SBS9C:
LTA didn't purchase the BYD, it's just simply loaned to them by the local BYD dealer for trials. I also don't think LTA will simply purchase the cheapest quoted, as they need to take into account the quality/support given by the manufacturer and also maintain an overall good public image (they wouldn't look good if they started purchasing solely Chinese made buses, or worse still if it starts breaking down often).
the MRT carriage are from China..so not stopping LTA to buy buses from China...
MAN/Volvo/MB buses also breakdown often...why u make the assumption that MIC buses will breakdown more often?
if the cost is $100 000 per bus cheaper in the same spec, they wil have to explain why they choose the higher cost supplier... 100 000 x 1000 buses is not small amount.
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
how sure u r that there are more ppl going to the back then to go up?
why dun u go and observe sv410 DD from 6pm to 10pm?and also observe those DDs (13/52/88) from Bishan St 22 to Bishan Mrt..
More people do indeed go to the back of a bendy bus than to the upper deck of a double deck, especially for shorter journeys. It is also easier to get drivers to ask passengers move to the rear on bendy buses than to the upper deck of a double deck. That is the general observation, you don't believe then go and make another observation.
Common sense will also tell you that people will prefer to move in on a bendy where they don't have to climb any stairs than a double deck where they have to climb a narrow set of stairs. Also because of this set of stairs on the DD, things get slowed down, even with a second set of stairs and 3rd set of doors on the DD, it will still be slower than a bendy as the stairs are narrow such that people can only form one file to leave the upper deck, plus the fact that people have to watch their steps when going down stairs, its all slower than on a bendy, where people just walk direct to the door to exit.
The reason why the bus transport hasn't improved significantly despite pumping so many buses is because there are too many double decks around, and alot of them are doing roles that are not suited for them. Bendy buses will speed up things and improve reliability and both passenger and traffic flows around busy bus stops. Singapore is just too dense a city for us to have double deckers choking up the roads. The general consensus around the world supports my view that bendy buses are more efficient people movers than double deckers.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Even without the 3-doors...look at the OMV of the 60 A95s. I don't think LTA really had a choice in this instance.
This is where competitive tender could really play a role on lowering costs for the upcoming tender.
Oddly enough, while some of the A95s have higher OMVs, the last batch registered out of the 60 SG plate ones on the roads now are actually cheaper than the competition.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
If costs was an issue, ADL would have won hands down.
Do you think we will then be having ADL as our de facto supplier of public buses when the concepts kick in?
Nope, pre GCM orders, ADL was the most expensive.
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
the MRT carriage are from China..so not stopping LTA to buy buses from China...
MAN/Volvo/MB buses also breakdown often...why u make the assumption that MIC buses will breakdown more often?
if the cost is $100 000 per bus cheaper in the same spec, they wil have to explain why they choose the higher cost supplier... 100 000 x 1000 buses is not small amount.
China buses are not meant to last, just look at how many 2007 King Longs coaches are still around, and one of the ex SBS sunlongs have been cannibalized for parts to support ex-SMB137A. Thats a 5 year old bus there. Not surprising as China typically uses their buses for 8 to 10 years. And just the other week, a china bus caught fire on Bt batok rd.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
Trust me, Volvo will def lose if purely based on price...
Based on pre GCM orders OMV, Volvo was not the most expensive.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
China buses are not meant to last, just look at how many 2007 King Longs coaches are still around, and one of the ex SBS sunlongs have been cannibalized for parts to support ex-SMB137A. Thats a 5 year old bus there. Not surprising as China typically uses their buses for 8 to 10 years. And just the other week, a china bus caught fire on Bt batok rd.
funny...as if MB/volvo buses does not caught fire?
i dun have stats of how many 2007 King Longs coaches are still around. if u have the figures (how many registered in 2007 and how many is still running now), pls provide.. else, it is just empty words...
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
More people do indeed go to the back of a bendy bus than to the upper deck of a double deck, especially for shorter journeys. It is also easier to get drivers to ask passengers move to the rear on bendy buses than to the upper deck of a double deck. That is the general observation, you don't believe then go and make another observation.
Common sense will also tell you that people will prefer to move in on a bendy where they don't have to climb any stairs than a double deck where they have to climb a narrow set of stairs. Also because of this set of stairs on the DD, things get slowed down, even with a second set of stairs and 3rd set of doors on the DD, it will still be slower than a bendy as the stairs are narrow such that people can only form one file to leave the upper deck, plus the fact that people have to watch their steps when going down stairs, its all slower than on a bendy, where people just walk direct to the door to exit.
The reason why the bus transport hasn't improved significantly despite pumping so many buses is because there are too many double decks around, and alot of them are doing roles that are not suited for them. Bendy buses will speed up things and improve reliability and both passenger and traffic flows around busy bus stops. Singapore is just too dense a city for us to have double deckers choking up the roads. The general consensus around the world supports my view that bendy buses are more efficient people movers than double deckers.
first point, not sure how you think it is easier for BC to ask paxes to move in to the back end of the bendy? by shouting?
Common sense? how do u explain those bendies which are full in front and empty at the back...
so DD resulted in public transport not improving? So public transport will improve when all the services are running bendies and all the interchanges have to be expanded to accomodate with the bendies? last time, we already argue on this matter as well...have explained previously that bendies buses does not necessary speed up loading at bus stops, since NOT ALL PAXES alight at one bus stop (only at some major bus stops where there are more alighting)...
further, 2 bendies buses can alight together, but 3 DDs can board/alight together... so things still the same.. not so sure about the fact that the bendies speed up traffic flow when it is infact taking more road space?
you yourself admit Singapore is too dense a city and further it is too small, that it cant afford 2000 bendies to be running around the roads of Singapore... no space to park them also...
this is taken at around 830am at junction of Bishan st22/Bishan Road.
A sv52 DD travelling towards Bishan Mrt with upper deck fully seated and lower deck full as well...Paxes board along St22 which is quite nearby... so since you say generally short distance dun go upper deck, then how do u explain this? u go can see for yourself from8am to 9am at this junction...
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
funny...as if MB/volvo buses does not caught fire?
i dun have stats of how many 2007 King Longs coaches are still around. if u have the figures (how many registered in 2007 and how many is still running now), pls provide.. else, it is just empty words...
Sorry there was a typo, I meant 2006 King Longs, which have reached the 10 year COE period. How many of them were extended for another 10 years allowed by their lifespan:
While I don't have an official list of how many King Longs registered 2006 and before, I do have a unofficial spotting list of all the King Longs I have spotted that were registered 2006 and before:
PA4318M King Long XMQ6778B King Long LKLR1CS953A000002 2003 15-Nov-03 PA6423D King Long XMQ6127C King Long LKLR1KSN96B602052 2006 29-Sep-06 PA4759Z Suzhou King Long KLQ6720B1 Higer LKLS1CS624A200635 2004 12-Jul-04 PA5302B Suzhou King Long KLQ6720B1 Higer LKLS1CS654A201990 2005 12-Apr-05 PA5388D Suzhou King Long KLQ6720B1 Higer LKLS1CS644A201995 2005 31-May-05 PA5493H Suzhou King Long KLQ6720B1 Higer LKLS1CS635A120665 2005 23-Jul-05 PA5800E Suzhou King Long KLQ6720B1 Higer LKLS1CS6X5A120923 2005 17-Dec-05 PA6029J Suzhou King Long KLQ6118Q Higer LKLR1HSJ65A200767 2005 13-Apr-06 PA6030D Suzhou King Long KLQ6118Q Higer LKLR1HSJ25A200765 2005 13-Apr-06 PA6348M Suzhou King Long KLQ6720B1 Higer LKLS1CS645A120979 2005 12-Sep-06 PA6376G Suzhou King Long KLQ6840 Higer LKLR1DSB86B002494 2006 19-Sep-06 PA6389U Suzhou King Long KLQ6840 Higer LKLR1DSBX6B002495 2006 29-Sep-06 PC1000M King Long XMQ6127C King Long LKLR1KSN26B602054 2006 29-Sep-06 PC5000L King Long XMQ6127C King Long LKLR1KSN96B602049 2006 29-Sep-06 PC5554E King Long XMQ6127C King Long LKLR1KSN56B602047 2006 29-Sep-06 PH1212S King Long XMQ6778B King Long LKLR1CS993A282001 2004 1-Jul-05 Note that PC5554E (former PA6418U) has been replaced by a newer Chinese bus made in 2014.
Of this list only 4 buses (PA6423D, PA6029J, PC1000M, PC5000L) remain in service, though out of these 4, only 6029 has its COE extended to 2021, the rest will have their COE expire at the end of this month and there is no way to tell whether they will be extended or not. I think it is quite fair to statistically extrapolate it to the actual number of buses, as these are random spottings that I have made over the past 7 years.
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
first point, not sure how you think it is easier for BC to ask paxes to move in to the back end of the bendy? by shouting?
Common sense? how do u explain those bendies which are full in front and empty at the back...
so DD resulted in public transport not improving? So public transport will improve when all the services are running bendies and all the interchanges have to be expanded to accomodate with the bendies? last time, we already argue on this matter as well...have explained previously that bendies buses does not necessary speed up loading at bus stops, since NOT ALL PAXES alight at one bus stop (only at some major bus stops where there are more alighting)...
further, 2 bendies buses can alight together, but 3 DDs can board/alight together... so things still the same.. not so sure about the fact that the bendies speed up traffic flow when it is infact taking more road space?
you yourself admit Singapore is too dense a city and further it is too small, that it cant afford 2000 bendies to be running around the roads of Singapore... no space to park them also...
this is taken at around 830am at junction of Bishan st22/Bishan Road.
A sv52 DD travelling towards Bishan Mrt with upper deck fully seated and lower deck full as well...Paxes board along St22 which is quite nearby... so since you say generally short distance dun go upper deck, then how do u explain this? u go can see for yourself from8am to 9am at this junction...
2 bendies vs 3 DDs can alight assuming the same space, and this brings us to the following example I have posted before:
Based on the absolute space taken, the DDs win, but a stationary bus is a sitting duck. When you take into account of the flow, you will realise more pax can be cleared with a bendy.
Based on observations, bendies take less than half the time of DDs dwelling at busy bus stops, having similar and significant boarding and alighting activities. Using simple, easy to calculate numbers, the calculation is as follows:
In a given 6 minutes time frame, and 36 m space. As you have said 3 DDs OR 2 bendies can fit into the space. But lets simply assume a bendy takes half the time (in fact, in reality, more often than not it takes less than half) of a DD. And for simplicity sake, lets assume a double deck takes 3 mins (at stops like NP and SIM, 5 mins is not unheard of), and a bendy takes 1.5 mins. Ie each DD space can be used by 2 DDs in 6 mins and each bendy space can be used by 4 bendies in 6 mins.
You could fit 3 DDs x 2 buses per space OR 2 bendies x 4 buses per space.
So in a given 6 minutes time frame, you could fit 6 DDs OR 8 bendies.
The above calculation was deliberately made simple, but it can be extrapolated to fit different dwelling times.
The above assumes a DD takes just 3 mins while a bendy takes 2 mins. In reality, DDs can take 5 mins or more to complete boarding and alighting (see 74, 154 at NP/SIM or Clementi MRT). And also note that typically, a bendy can take in a few more people than a DD in terms of total capacity.
How about DDs where people don't move upstairs? Like DDs on 222, 291, 983 where it takes some effort for the drivers to get them upstairs, or in the case of 291, the DD is delayed such that the next bus (usually a Scania) is at waiting behind to enter the berth. Do you know that before the introduction of 983, there wasn't a need to place any staff at CCK Ave 5 (the former 300 u-turn part) to force people to move to the rear of the 300 bendy but a few days after 983's DDs were introduced, during the morning peak, staff have to be deployed to force people to go upstairs? Waste of resources as the staff could be used for other things like controlling buses at the interchange.
How sure are you that passengers can't hear a bus driver shouting on a bendy when usually you will be able to hear the commotion even when sitting at the last row of a bendy, maybe you don't sit there often so you won't know.
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Let me tell you something - people sometimes wont ever try to move to the back of a bendy because they just want to alight fast. As a bendy only has 1 door at a trailer compared to 2 at the front, they would rather just stand in front of the exit door so that they dont waste time. If only there are 4 doors total for a bendy, I can guarantee that people WILL move to the back
Also, I dont think its fair to compare how fast a bendy can load/unload passengers. While a bendy has 3 doors, a DD only has 2. This is the case of how some bus services are struggling with the MANs given that they have only 2 doors.
In a way, bendies offer an alternative for passengers to alight/board as there is another door (although 4 is faster and encourages people to move to the back since the exit would otherwise be in front of them).
It is a great move for LTA to do this as they know that people will only move to the back if an exit is in front of them.
All I ask is wish the staircase was wider to provide two ways to go up/down with the exit in front of them. I also wish that one day LTA buys a 3-door MAN too
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Originally posted by SMB1368T:
Let me tell you something - people sometimes wont ever try to move to the back of a bendy because they just want to alight fast. As a bendy only has 1 door at a trailer compared to 2 at the front, they would rather just stand in front of the exit door so that they dont waste time. If only there are 4 doors total for a bendy, I can guarantee that people WILL move to the back
Also, I dont think its fair to compare how fast a bendy can load/unload passengers. While a bendy has 3 doors, a DD only has 2. This is the case of how some bus services are struggling with the MANs given that they have only 2 doors.
In a way, bendies offer an alternative for passengers to alight/board as there is another door (although 4 is faster and encourages people to move to the back since the exit would otherwise be in front of them).
It is a great move for LTA to do this as they know that people will only move to the back if an exit is in front of them.
All I ask is wish the staircase was wider to provide two ways to go up/down with the exit in front of them. I also wish that one day LTA buys a 3-door MAN too
Your first para is what me and lemon1974 have been discussing, which then led to a discussion involving asking passengers to move in or up, so that has been covered in my reply to him.
Your next paragraph doesn't take into the realities of the current situation. It is absolutely fair to compare a 2 door DD with a 3 door bendy as these are the products available on the market right now as proven products. Saying that it is unfair is like saying that it is unfair for one kid to get 100 for an exam while another getting 40 for the same exam.
On 3 door bendies vs 3 door DDs. It has to be noted that the 3 door dual staircase DDs will have to be extended to at least 12.8m (in MAN's case) or 13m (in ADL's case). This is to compensate for the loss of seats to the staircases.
Lets look at the ADL for example, it is a road hog at 13m, while not having any significant increase in seats as compared to a normal DD, which contradicts the double decker supporters claim of "people wanting more seats, so a 3 door dd is going to solve the issues", plus the ADL has a enormous rear overhang which looks like it will sideswipe anything beside it when it turns. Plus, it will still take longer for passengers to get from their seats on the upper deck to the doors than someone getting from their seats at the back of a bendy bus to the doors as climbing stairs requires more caution than walking on a relatively flat surface (common sense).
As for rear door boarding, it has to be noted that it is practiced at certain interchanges such as CCK and Woodlands during peak periods. Compare a bendy with just 2 foor boarding to a rear door boarding of a DD, the bendy is much faster, not just because some people will choose to stay below hence causing a clash of flows, but also because whoever who chose to go upstairs take a longer time to climb the stairs.
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So...why is SBST still buying DDs over the years despite having trials with the bendies? Also, over the years, improvements have been made for the DDs such as straight staircases which would have otherwise been the case for you, in which you said that flat surfaces require less caution than flat staircases which take a longer time
Lets also try to look at some full-DD services such as 168. As a regular commuter of 168, not much time is wasted when people from Tampines take the DDs. A person takes the staircase in 5 seconds. If the staircase is full, 5 pax would otherwise be able to fill it and reach the upper deck in 5 secs. Also, it seems that there is no problem with the DDs as buses often come on time and almost always fill a bus load of passengers despite needing some time to load the passengers
Actually, it depends on the passenger patterns. There are some times when passengers would not want to go up while others would. For example, previously, 856 used to be full of DDs but almost no worker goes up. However, with bendies, from what I seen, people move to the back and less passengers are left out. However, 981 is always full even upstairs. I am not sure why because I am not a 981 commuter but as I say it depends on passenger patterns
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Originally posted by SMB1368T:
So...why is SBST still buying DDs over the years despite having trials with the bendies? Also, over the years, improvements have been made for the DDs such as straight staircases which would have otherwise been the case for you, in which you said that flat surfaces require less caution than flat staircases which take a longer time
Lets also try to look at some full-DD services such as 168. As a regular commuter of 168, not much time is wasted when people from Tampines take the DDs. A person takes the staircase in 5 seconds. If the staircase is full, 5 pax would otherwise be able to fill it and reach the upper deck in 5 secs. Also, it seems that there is no problem with the DDs as buses often come on time and almost always fill a bus load of passengers despite needing some time to load the passengers
Actually, it depends on the passenger patterns. There are some times when passengers would not want to go up while others would. For example, previously, 856 used to be full of DDs but almost no worker goes up. However, with bendies, from what I seen, people move to the back and less passengers are left out. However, 981 is always full even upstairs. I am not sure why because I am not a 981 commuter but as I say it depends on passenger patterns
They only had 2 bendies for trial, and that was when bus operators owned and designed their own bus depots and workshop facilities (ie alll infrastructure expenses paid by themselves). Not going into detail but the facilities in the workshops of SBS differs from SMRT's. Only thing I can say is SMRT's workshop is more flexible. Furthermore when it comes to DD purchasing, they have only bought DDs of one particular engine arrangement in large numbers (Transverse engine with angle drive). All these to simplify parts and training. The only exception are the 200 O.305s, which is basically a single deck chassis when you talk about mechanical specs.
But now, gov owns the infrastructure, it is a good opportunity for the government to move away from double deckers and go for bendy buses so that a more efficient system can be achieved for better rides.
As for 168, if you noticed my posts, unlike the double deck purists who say that bendies should be all gone, I have never said that double deckers are unsuitable for all routes, what is needed are suitable buses for different routes. Though 161 and 168 do provide a good example when it comes to bendy vs DD unloading time at Woodlands, but thats besides the point here.
981's main catchment comes from pax travelling to and from areas not served by 856. If you don't board the bus, or move upstairs, I'm sure someone else, be it drivers or other pax, will make sure you do that, because if you don't someone else will miss the only bus service to those areas and be late for work if they waited for the next one.
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Well I hope they dont make a mess-up situation here given that they occupy space
Now I know why people want to go up on 52 and those other DD services