To stop all those unwanted preg, the authorities should post the photos on the public notice board. Let the couples out there especially ladies know that killing a foetus is like killing a human being. The photos looks very grossy!
Originally posted by Gedanken:Yeah, well, that cheque better be in the mail.
For what it's worth (not a whole lot, to be frank), whatever one's version of the truth is, it needs to be consistent with the facts and that's where your side sort of stands up. I assume you've read Govier?
Ah yes Gedanken.. I see the start to a great friendship between you and Aneslayer .
Aneslayer is very much like you isn't he. Very combative.. unyielding and here to prove how wrong the world is. A much tortured soul.
He'd make a good Protege or your doppleganger.
And Ofcors.. his side sort of stands up.. Easier to let a simple fool remain ignorant.. than try to educate one.
Originally posted by likeyou:To stop all those unwanted preg, the authorities should post the photos on the public notice board. Let the couples out there especially ladies know that killing a foetus is like killing a human being. The photos looks very grossy!
I agree.
The key is to prevent unplanned pregnancy....... not promote abortion.
Pro-choice begins at sex.. not after conception.
Originally posted by likeyou:To stop all those unwanted preg, the authorities should post the photos on the public notice board. Let the couples out there especially ladies know that killing a foetus is like killing a human being. The photos looks very grossy!
Never happening. Face comes first to the Govt, they won't admit they have a pregnancy problem.
As desperate as they are for babies, for the same reason they won't have a baby dropbox.
lol christians
Originally posted by Siliconchip:lol christians
Pardon me. Agnostic.
double post.- deleted.
What brand are you using?
My figures expand over hours not months, reach a bigger size and don't disintegrate.
Originally posted by alize:Jojo,
Seeing we eat animals all the time, would it help to draw a line between life with only sentience, and life with sentience and sapience?
All beings have the former, some animals have the latter, but certainly not a cluster of cells has the latter. People generally avoid eating the more sapient species. If it's not sapient, it's not murder.
I point out all of us have the would-be child's welfare as our only consideration.
ALL animals are sentience and sapience being. How many of us actually raised our own food ? If you do.. you will agree that animals are intelligent, albeit limited in capacity.
Humans eat anything that nourishes them.. sapient or not it seems. There is not one animal we do not attempt to feast on.. even the most poisonous of living things.
The question I ask is .. do we eat our young? And since we don't, why do we kill them ?
I will agree that the cluster of cells are non-sapient beings...if it remains throughout it's life as but... a cluster of cells.
However.. the fact that these cells are able to divide and form perfectly ( some not so perfectly) into human beings.. bellies the fact that they carry/retain some form of memory/information...and the ability to execute these information.. makes them sapient.
So again.. why do we want to kill it ?
If you say that a fetus/embryo ( whatever you label it) is not human being.. then may I ask.. can a chicken egg become a human being ? or can a cow give birth to a human being ?
or.. can that fetus/embryo with human genetic become a cat ?
Answer: No.
So.. that human fetus/embryo/cluster of cell.. is in fact human.
Originally posted by jojobeach:ALL animals are sentience and sapience being. How many of us actually raised our own food ? If you do.. you will agree that animals are intelligent, albeit limited in capacity.
Humans eat anything that nourishes them.. sapient or not it seems. There is not one animal we do not attempt to feast on.. even the most poisonous of living things.
The question I ask is .. do we eat our young? And since we don't, why do we kill them ?
lol christian? So you say that we should kill what we only eat? Dude I kill disease-spreading cockroaches and mosquitos all the time, should the be eaten.
Originally posted by Siliconchip:lol christian? So you say that we should kill what we only eat? Dude I kill disease-spreading cockroaches and mosquitos all the time, should the be eaten.
No, I am Agnostic.. not christian.. nor muslim.. not any cult nor denomination... nor Atheist.
You kill coackroaches and mosquitoes because they interfer with your enjoyment of your personal space. Nothing else but an act of convenience.
Do you kill your children if they become too difficult to control ?
Look's like we got a pro life versus pro choice going on here.
Originally posted by jojobeach:ALL animals are sentience and sapience being. How many of us actually raised our own food ? If you do.. you will agree that animals are intelligent, albeit limited in capacity.
Humans eat anything that nourishes them.. sapient or not it seems. There is not one animal we do not attempt to feast on.. even the most poisonous of living things.
The question I ask is .. do we eat our young? And since we don't, why do we kill them ?
I will agree that the cluster of cells are non-sapient beings...if it remains throughout it's life as but... a cluster of cells.
However.. the fact that these cells are able to divide and form perfectly ( some not so perfectly) into human beings.. bellies the fact that they carry/retain some form of memory/information...and the ability to execute these information.. makes them sapient.
So again.. why do we want to kill it ?
If you say that a fetus/embryo ( whatever you label it) is not human being.. then may I ask.. can a chicken egg become a human being ? or can a cow give birth to a human being ?
or.. can that fetus/embryo with human genetic become a cat ?
Answer: No.
So.. that human fetus/embryo/cluster of cell.. is in fact human.
Your argument is fatally flawed.
You cannot say a cluster of cells is sapient just because it performs cell division according to hardwired instructions, that is common to every single plant or animal.
You wouldn't call your thumb or toe sapient just because it grew from your body
Now, sapience will occur at an advanced stage of assembly that is yet far to occur, perhaps when a baby is a few months or years of age.
Also you confuse sentience (the ability to feel) with sapience (wisdom and its exercise). Sapience does not extend to all animals. Crows and dolphins are sapient and have a concern for their future. Fish, cattle, poultry are sentient and live and react completely in the present.
How far back does sapience go?
A sperm cell is hardwired to build a body on contact with an egg, taking information on bodily traits from DNA present in any given cell.
Is that sapience? Or a sperm+an egg? Or 100 additional cells? Even sentience is not acquired until long after.
Most of us add to our wisdom as we age. We don't acquire sapience until we have had opportunity to exercise and develop our wisdom.
This is not to say that 1 year olds should be eaten. But to show that no sapience exists to be killed within the womb.
Originally posted by BadzMaro:Look's like we got a pro life versus pro choice going on here.
yep
Originally posted by alize:Your argument is fatally flawed.
You cannot say a cluster of cells is sapient just because it performs cell division according to hardwired instructions, that is common to every single plant or animal.
You wouldn't call your thumb or toe sapient just because it grew from your body
Now, sapience will occur at an advanced stage of assembly that is yet far to occur, perhaps when a baby is a few months or years of age.
Also you confuse sentience (the ability to feel) with sapience (wisdom and its exercise). Sapience does not extend to all animals. Crows and dolphins are sapient and have a concern for their future. Fish, cattle, poultry are sentient and live and react completely in the present.
Fatally flawed or not.. is merely subjective. You do not know what I know.. and vice versa so lets not judge too quickly shall we ?
This debate on Sentience vs Sapients to justify or vilify abortion is not entirely new.
The problem with this debate is .. till date even the greatest scientists, philosphers and great thinkers failed to test and measure sentience or sapience. so really.. is this a futile discourse ?
Is human truly capable of dictating which living things are sentiences with or without sapiences ? The arrogance.
Our body is made up of living cells. The plants are made of living cells too.. infact.. plant cells are capable of making their own food to survive. Our nails and hair cells are dead cells.. thats why we don't mind cutting em off. But is a fetus a cluster of dead cells ?
If all our cells are dead.. we'd be dead or zombiefied- the living dead ( a non-sentience with sapient abilities?)
If our right to survival solely rests upon classifying our being into sapiance or non-sapiance.. then is it right to kill someone who is brain dead ( in a vegetative state, all organs functioning) but had lived outside a mother's womb for more than a year ?
Add: "You wouldn't call your thumb or toe sapient just because it grew from your body".. since your thumb and toes are non-sapience.. may I cut it off for you ?
To sum it all up.. The starting point of a new life start at Conception. To insist a person's arbitary rights to live after that point, is illogical.
I am Pro-choice.. the choice to use contraceptives and medical related abortions.
Abortions should never be a lifestyle choice. Give that baby a chance to live.
Originally posted by rykiel.annabel:my life is such a shit, sometimes i wish i will jz end my life to solve everything. i am pregnant of 1-2 mths and worry of my mom finding out and disown me. the baby is belong to my ex who i dump cz he is unfaithful and we hv very complicated rs. he cheat on me with my bro’s gf who is a big slut, of cz he don know it before but later found out. my parents are divorce and he is son of my father and remarried wife. the girl hv sex with my ex and my bro and i hear from him she is also pregnant and maybe hv some disease. will i or my bro get the disease if she hv it? i also worry to tell my mom cz my ex is not a same race as me as he is indian and my child will not look like me. the girl always take a lot of money from my ex and stay at his hse now ever since i dump him. i hv nobody to turn to and my mom will kill me if she know this. if i gone for abortions, do she need to sign?
Originally posted by rykiel.annabel:i am jz so scared of abortions. i feel guilty for the baby cz i can’t bring him or her to live. my ex is not my bro at all, they are 2 diff person. my ex cheat on me with a girl. this girl was my bro’s ex last time, i so hate her! really big slut. if i find out have a disease, what to do
Synopsis
TS should be 1-2 mths + 10 days pregnant by now.
Her Mother told her that no good scoundrel would make her pregnant and dump her. Now she is pregnant and that no good scoundrel dumped her.
You can see she is in deep shit.
Afraid of mother, afraid of abortion, cannot have child.
Don't tell her this all should not have happened. It is passed that.
Now what CAN she do?
Any suggestions?
"What exactly is your purpose here ? To prove how well a debater you are ?
Other than attacking how I choose to present my case... I don't see much educational value in your postings."
For one, I'm pointing the flaws of of your argument and how you present. I guess people stopped learning because they think that they know enough... truth is, reality is cruel so is nature.
"This is Aunt Agony.. not some mock court you do at school. There is a time and place for everything.. If you so desire a full point-by -point debate.. you can PM me.. I do not wish to burden this thread with your selfish desire to prove how smart you are."
So say the one who posted 3 shock pics....
"Abortion is not the only way to resolve the problem. "
No one said otherwise... seems you are implying I did... whatever...
"And for your info. a friend of mine is a result of a rape. I've mentioned this before. Her mother is a Roman Catholic ( no abortion policy). She is Hispanic.. growing up in Texas..a place of much racial discrimination... today she is a high flyer.. if her mother had condemned her to death by abortion..she wouldn't be what she is today."
And Steve Jobs didn't ever wanted to talk about his birth parents...
"The fact is ,that I choose to see what life can be, instead of the gloom and doom you seek to portray."
Eh... you are the only painting abortion as doomy and gloomy... From your responses in this thread alone, I sensed you are a miserable person inside. Of course... deny all you can. Your happiness is not my concern... though I'm accounted for some agony...
"I am very saddened by people like you. To build your ego on the backs of other people's misery.Cheapening the precious life of a child."
I pride myself as someone without ego. You really did not see yours? Anyway, I can't help your confusion about fetus and child anymore... I tried and I failed.
"As for your children... you will do well imparting them the technical art of argument. Turn them into little assholes nobody gives a crap about. "
Hypocritical... At one end you were like "Oh the poor children" and here you call them assholes. This is why I chose to expose you. There nothing I hate more than pretentious hypocrites. Bitch.
"I wish you peace and happiness, if you can ever attain it."
Life is as good as it gets, for now. Why did you even try to pretend when everyone knows hpw much of a hypocrite you are?
"Fatally flawed or not.. is merely subjective."
Opinions are subjective. Logic in argumemts are not. Get your facts right.
"I am Pro-choice.. the choice to use contraceptives and medical related abortions.
Abortions should never be a lifestyle choice. Give that baby a chance to live."
You are not aware of the contradiction in the above statement, aren't you? By definition, thats pro life....
Originally posted by Aneslayer:"What exactly is your purpose here ? To prove how well a debater you are ?
Other than attacking how I choose to present my case... I don't see much educational value in your postings."
For one, I'm pointing the flaws of of your argument and how you present. I guess people stopped learning because they think that they know enough... truth is, reality is cruel so is nature.
"This is Aunt Agony.. not some mock court you do at school. There is a time and place for everything.. If you so desire a full point-by -point debate.. you can PM me.. I do not wish to burden this thread with your selfish desire to prove how smart you are."
So say the one who posted 3 shock pics....
"Abortion is not the only way to resolve the problem. "
No one said otherwise... seems you are implying I did... whatever...
"And for your info. a friend of mine is a result of a rape. I've mentioned this before. Her mother is a Roman Catholic ( no abortion policy). She is Hispanic.. growing up in Texas..a place of much racial discrimination... today she is a high flyer.. if her mother had condemned her to death by abortion..she wouldn't be what she is today."
And Steve Jobs didn't ever wanted to talk about his birth parents...
"The fact is ,that I choose to see what life can be, instead of the gloom and doom you seek to portray."
Eh... you are the only painting abortion as doomy and gloomy... From your responses in this thread alone, I sensed you are a miserable person inside. Of course... deny all you can. Your happiness is not my concern... though I'm accounted for some agony...
"I am very saddened by people like you. To build your ego on the backs of other people's misery.Cheapening the precious life of a child."
I pride myself as someone without ego. You really did not see yours? Anyway, I can't help your confusion about fetus and child anymore... I tried and I failed.
"As for your children... you will do well imparting them the technical art of argument. Turn them into little assholes nobody gives a crap about. "
Hypocritical... At one end you were like "Oh the poor children" and here you call them assholes. This is why I chose to expose you. There nothing I hate more than pretentious hypocrites. Bitch.
"I wish you peace and happiness, if you can ever attain it."
Life is as good as it gets, for now. Why did you even try to pretend when everyone knows hpw much of a hypocrite you are?
"Fatally flawed or not.. is merely subjective."
Opinions are subjective. Logic in argumemts are not. Get your facts right.
"I am Pro-choice.. the choice to use contraceptives and medical related abortions.
Abortions should never be a lifestyle choice. Give that baby a chance to live."
You are not aware of the contradiction in the above statement, aren't you? By definition, thats pro life....
Whatever dude. Your retorts are so full of loop holes I'm starting to wonder if this is how you draw people in for the sake of a mindless argument. While you are attacking my technical errors.. are you even aware of your own nonsensical flaws ?
One thing for sure.. I am a parent of a young child..a gift that should be cherished and not take for granted ... it pains me to see one get destroyed so frivolously/senselessly.
Since you refused to see the human side of this discussion, there's really nothing much to be said.
Good luck and have a nice day.
Originally posted by jojobeach:Whatever dude. Your retorts are so full of loop holes I'm starting to wonder if this is how you draw people in for the sake of a mindless argument.
One thing for sure.. I am a parent of a young child..a gift that should be cherished and not take for granted ... it pains me to see one get destroyed so frivolously/senselessly.
Since you refused to see the human side of this discussion, there's really nothing much to be said.
Good luck and have a nice day.
You wouldn't be so kind to prove that there are loop holes, would you. Else you are just being flatulent again.
You child will grow up like you. You have been warned.
So you failed to see the logical side of the issue. Sad...
You are on your own now. Any more words will be wasted, I shall not want.
Originally posted by Aneslayer:You wouldn't be so kind to prove that there are loop holes, would you. Else you are just being flatulent again.
You child will grow up like you. You have been warned.
So you failed to see the logical side of the issue. Sad...
You are on your own now. Any more words will be wasted, I shall not want.
Thank you. I don't see the need to point out your errors.. I assume you are a responsible adult and will conduct introspection on your own.
Or in due time.. you will acquire new knowledge which will ultimately prove your past thinking irrelevant.
Live and let live. Best regards.
Originally posted by jojobeach:
Fatally flawed or not.. is merely subjective. You do not know what I know.. and vice versa so lets not judge too quickly shall we ?
This debate on Sentience vs Sapients to justify or vilify abortion is not entirely new.
The problem with this debate is .. till date even the greatest scientists, philosphers and great thinkers failed to test and measure sentience or sapience. so really.. is this a futile discourse ?
Is human truly capable of dictating which living things are sentiences with or without sapiences ? The arrogance.
Our body is made up of living cells. The plants are made of living cells too.. infact.. plant cells are capable of making their own food to survive. Our nails and hair cells are dead cells.. thats why we don't mind cutting em off. But is a fetus a cluster of dead cells ?
If all our cells are dead.. we'd be dead or zombiefied- the living dead ( a non-sentience with sapient abilities?)
If our right to survival solely rests upon classifying our being into sapiance or non-sapiance.. then is it right to kill someone who is brain dead ( in a vegetative state, all organs functioning) but had lived outside a mother's womb for more than a year ?
Add: "You wouldn't call your thumb or toe sapient just because it grew from your body".. since your thumb and toes are non-sapience.. may I cut it off for you ?
To sum it all up.. The starting point of a new life start at Conception. To insist a person's arbitary rights to live after that point, is illogical.
I am Pro-choice.. the choice to use contraceptives and medical related abortions.
Abortions should never be a lifestyle choice. Give that baby a chance to live.
You are right that plant cells (like bacteria and all other cells) can divide, produce food, and are alive. Just like a fetus; a developing fetus is a simpler lifeform than many plants and animals, at some stages simpler than algae.
While my toes are not sapient, you may not cut them off because they are useful to me. What use is the life that TS will provide to TS' would-be child?
The fetus is not even sentient yet and is not in a position to suffer loss. Animal cruelty laws prevent us from inflicting pain, because as sentients they feel pain. They provide for their humane killing as pests, because they are not sapient or not as sapient. Yet more advanced than many fetuses.
In the second instance, as a mother you should consider your ability to be useful to your baby and not the other way around.
This argument sounds very luan...for me, I think I favour an abortion. Reason is that a foetus should not be feeling the painful end since it is not developed yet. It also looks like the makers (girl and guy) are not prepared to provide stable and happy family yet. So if by giving birth,wouldn`t the baby suffer even more for so many years?
Also, I cannot understand why guys will say goodbye to the girl who carries his flesh and blood. I will do anything for a girl who is willing to have my own little baby! It is godsent! Aiya, but I am not so attractive. very sad...any takers?
Anybody know the abortion rates in Spore?
what rates???, eat lots of pineapple, sure baby come out one..