stress over pregnancy
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Originally posted by soleachip:
i think the question of when exactly a fetus is considered a life (therefore abortion = murder) is still raging at this point. imo when the nervous system is developed to the point where a sensation of pain from the aborting can be felt, the process becomes cruel for the helpless.
From other forum user...
"Technically, life begins at some point yet to be determined after the conception but before the birth of your mother. The egg in her ovary is alive long before it meets up with the sperm, and so your life begins there, before she is even born."
The nueral development starts roughly after week 10 of gestation...
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
From other forum user...
"Technically, life begins at some point yet to be determined after the conception but before the birth of your mother. The egg in her ovary is alive long before it meets up with the sperm, and so your life begins there, before she is even born."
The nueral development starts roughly after week 10 of gestation...
BS! If this is to be believed then having periods is murdering.
Anyways I am very glad I am a man.
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
From other forum user...
"Technically, life begins at some point yet to be determined after the conception but before the birth of your mother. The egg in her ovary is alive long before it meets up with the sperm, and so your life begins there, before she is even born."
The nueral development starts roughly after week 10 of gestation...
the beginnings of personhood or life has not exactly been agreed upon at this point by the masses or scientists, every definition and belief system is coming from some place. be it from a neurological, biological or religious standpoint imo. it's too complicated and too fraught with agendas... so whichever place it's coming from, i don't think this thread can hope to cover much. already there are idealists and rationalists arguing here... you get the drift.
as narrow minded as this may sound... steve jobs was the result of an unwanted pregnancy, true. but his birth parents at the very least, had enough i e a and s Q to be extremely selective about their choice of adoptive parents. now imagine if he was adopted by a couple of sheep herders in _ _ _ _ (this is where we fill in our own blanks).
truth is for every good example of a healthy, adjusted kid who sprang from a bad situation, there'll be as many examples of those didn't.
i hope TS is okay now and finds the support she needs. generally speaking if she's struggling with basic needs like security, support and love, she's hardly in a good place to make sound decisions as a mother.
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Originally posted by soleachip:
the beginnings of personhood or life has not exactly been agreed upon at this point by the masses or scientists, every definition and belief system is coming from some place. be it from a neurological, biological or religious standpoint imo. it's too complicated and too fraught with agendas... so whichever place it's coming from, i don't think this thread can hope to cover much. already there are idealists and rationalists arguing here... you get the drift.
as narrow minded as this may sound... steve jobs was the result of an unwanted pregnancy, true. but his birth parents at the very least, had enough i e a and s Q to be extremely selective about their choice of adoptive parents. now imagine if he was adopted by a couple of sheep herders in _ _ _ _ (this is where we fill in our own blanks).
truth is for every good example of a healthy, adjusted kid who sprang from a bad situation, there'll be as many examples of those didn't.
i hope TS is okay now and finds the support she needs. generally speaking if she's struggling with basic needs like security, support and love, she's hardly in a good place to make sound decisions as a mother.
I would agree. How would babies grow up if the system does not allow the birth parent to choose....
TS needs real, caring support...
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
I would agree. How would babies grow up if the system does not allow the birth parent to choose....
TS needs real, caring support...
How many parents of adopted children do you know ?
Are you even a parent yet ?
I have at least 3 couples of which 2 adopted children outside their own race . 4 teenage single moms who decied against aborting their babies . Growing up, at least 3 of my girl friends had abortions, 2 of which are unable to have kids due to scarring and 1 just went through her 3rd miscarriage.
You talk big.. but you have no idea what it's like to be a parent.
TS already clarified that guy is not his half brother.. go and read TS post properly.
The fact that you think aborting a baby is like a dental removal shows how IGNORANT you are. So please STFU.. educate yourself better before you come here and spout more nonsense.
Here's the stats you ask about..pertaining to psychological damage..
Research by David Reardon of the Elliott Institute has shown that, regardless of age, family size, race, marital status, or number of abortions, of those surveyed:
- 61 percent experience flashbacks
- 54 percent have anniversary reactions
- 33 percent feel suicidal
- 78 percent have feelings of diminished control of their lives
- 52 percent experience difficulty developing and maintaining relationships
- 49 percent begin or increase drug use
Ironically, though women seek out abortion as a solution to stressful circumstances, abortion itself can become a contributor to long-lasting stress of a different kind.
And yes.. if you are old enough to have UNPROTECTED SEX.. you are old enough to view photos of aborted babies..
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Originally posted by soleachip:
the beginnings of personhood or life has not exactly been agreed upon at this point by the masses or scientists, every definition and belief system is coming from some place. be it from a neurological, biological or religious standpoint imo. it's too complicated and too fraught with agendas... so whichever place it's coming from, i don't think this thread can hope to cover much. already there are idealists and rationalists arguing here... you get the drift.
as narrow minded as this may sound... steve jobs was the result of an unwanted pregnancy, true. but his birth parents at the very least, had enough i e a and s Q to be extremely selective about their choice of adoptive parents. now imagine if he was adopted by a couple of sheep herders in _ _ _ _ (this is where we fill in our own blanks).
truth is for every good example of a healthy, adjusted kid who sprang from a bad situation, there'll be as many examples of those didn't.
i hope TS is okay now and finds the support she needs. generally speaking if she's struggling with basic needs like security, support and love, she's hardly in a good place to make sound decisions as a mother.
Actually.. Steve's mom had to settle for a couple without college degrees. because the lawyers wanted a baby girl. Steve's mom made the adoptive parents promise they will send Steve to college.. which he never did.
TS's priority is her health.. she is at risk of HIV. IF she is indeed HIV positive..it will be difficult for her to have babies in the future. The only way a HIV mother can have a baby is via insemination if her new partner is HIV negative.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
How many parents of adopted children do you know ?
Are you even a parent yet ?
I have at least 3 couples of which 2 adopted children outside their own race . 4 teenage single moms who decied against aborting their babies . Growing up, at least 3 of my girl friends had abortions, 2 of which are unable to have kids due to scarring and 1 just went through her 3rd miscarriage.
You talk big.. but you have no idea what it's like to be a parent.
TS already clarified that guy is not his half brother.. go and read TS post properly.
The fact that you think aborting a baby is like a dental removal shows how IGNORANT you are. So please STFU.. educate yourself better before you come here and spout more nonsense.
Ad hominems... like that would be conducive for discussion... Oh wait, you are just being rude.
" I have at least 3 couples of which 2 adopted children outside their own race . 4 teenage single moms who decied against aborting their babies . Growing up, at least 3 of my girl friends had abortions, 2 of which are unable to have kids due to scarring and 1 just went through her 3rd miscarriage."
Oh anecdotes... like they are helping your arguments. I have plenty too:
And I have 5 kids with my current wife, my ex wife happily aborted our child now and is having her 3rd baby, one my ex's having her second child after god know how many abortions. My athlectic 2nd sister had twice miscarriage without ever going thru abortion.
"You talk big.. but you have no idea what it's like to be a parent."
Like I said, I'm a father of 5 beautiful kids... thats why I'm very patient with you....
"TS already clarified that guy is not his half brother.. go and read TS post properly."
My bad. I stand corrected, thank you. I see you mistook it as well, nobody's perfect.
"The fact that you think aborting a baby is like a dental removal shows how IGNORANT you are. So please STFU.. educate yourself better before you come here and spout more nonsense."
Yeah ad hominems... you are dispensing it like they'd will help you hold on to your moralistic pretentions that pro choice are morally corrupted or mentally challenged.
" IF she is indeed HIV positive..it will be difficult for her to have babies in the future. The only way a HIV mother can have a baby is via insemination if her new partner is HIV negative."
Old school... Please update you knowledge. Also from the link; "... but most women go on to have normal, healthy pregnancies after an abortion."
"61 percent experience flashbacks
54 percent have anniversary reactions
33 percent feel suicidal
78 percent have feelings of diminished control of their lives
52 percent experience difficulty developing and maintaining relationships
49 percent begin or increase drug use"
Who do you think you are kidding? Correlation does not imply causation... especially in statistics. Link the source if you dare, I'll break it down for you to see there's is no implications, except for those pushing an ideal. Ever heard of Dihydrogen monoxide?
"Ironically, though women seek out abortion as a solution to stressful circumstances, abortion itself can become a contributor to long-lasting stress of a different kind."
There you go flatulating again... I can make similar statement but I refrain from lowering myself to your level.
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
Ad hominems... like that would be conducive for discussion... Oh wait, you are just being rude.
" I have at least 3 couples of which 2 adopted children outside their own race . 4 teenage single moms who decied against aborting their babies . Growing up, at least 3 of my girl friends had abortions, 2 of which are unable to have kids due to scarring and 1 just went through her 3rd miscarriage."
Oh anecdotes... like they are helping your arguments. I have plenty too:
And I have 5 kids with my current wife, my ex wife happily aborted our child now and is having her 3rd baby, one my ex's having her second child after god know how many abortions. My athlectic 2nd sister had twice miscarriage without ever going thru abortion.
"You talk big.. but you have no idea what it's like to be a parent."
Like I said, I'm a father of 5 beautiful kids... thats why I'm very patient with you....
"TS already clarified that guy is not his half brother.. go and read TS post properly."
My bad. I stand corrected, thank you. I see you mistook it as well, nobody's perfect.
"The fact that you think aborting a baby is like a dental removal shows how IGNORANT you are. So please STFU.. educate yourself better before you come here and spout more nonsense."
Yeah ad hominems... you are dispensing it like they'd will help you hold on to your moralistic pretentions that pro choice are morally corrupted or mentally challenged.
Really.. 5 kids ? Me toes are laughing.
Here you are claiming to be father of 5 beautiful kids.. yet you advocate another killing her own child...
Now you know why I think something is wrong with you ?
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
Ad hominems... like that would be conducive for discussion... Oh wait, you are just being rude.
" I have at least 3 couples of which 2 adopted children outside their own race . 4 teenage single moms who decied against aborting their babies . Growing up, at least 3 of my girl friends had abortions, 2 of which are unable to have kids due to scarring and 1 just went through her 3rd miscarriage."
Oh anecdotes... like they are helping your arguments. I have plenty too:
And I have 5 kids with my current wife, my ex wife happily aborted our child now and is having her 3rd baby, one my ex's having her second child after god know how many abortions. My athlectic 2nd sister had twice miscarriage without ever going thru abortion.
"You talk big.. but you have no idea what it's like to be a parent."
Like I said, I'm a father of 5 beautiful kids... thats why I'm very patient with you....
"TS already clarified that guy is not his half brother.. go and read TS post properly."
My bad. I stand corrected, thank you. I see you mistook it as well, nobody's perfect.
"The fact that you think aborting a baby is like a dental removal shows how IGNORANT you are. So please STFU.. educate yourself better before you come here and spout more nonsense."
Yeah ad hominems... you are dispensing it like they'd will help you hold on to your moralistic pretentions that pro choice are morally corrupted or mentally challenged.
" IF she is indeed HIV positive..it will be difficult for her to have babies in the future. The only way a HIV mother can have a baby is via insemination if her new partner is HIV negative."
Old school... Please update you knowledge. Also from the link; "... but most women go on to have normal, healthy pregnancies after an abortion."
"61 percent experience flashbacks
54 percent have anniversary reactions
33 percent feel suicidal
78 percent have feelings of diminished control of their lives
52 percent experience difficulty developing and maintaining relationships
49 percent begin or increase drug use"
Who do you think you are kidding? Correlation does not imply causation... especially in statistics. Link the source if you dare, I'll break it down for you to see there's is no implications, except for those pushing an ideal. Ever heard of Dihydrogen monoxide?
"Ironically, though women seek out abortion as a solution to stressful circumstances, abortion itself can become a contributor to long-lasting stress of a different kind."
There you go flatulating again... I can make similar statement but I refrain from lowering myself to your level.
LOL.. I see you are struggling here... now dude.. tell me.. if you are HIV negative.. and your partner is HIV positive.. HOW are you going to make her pregnant without getting yourself infected with HIV too ??
"Correlation does not imply causation... especially in statistics"
Really ? Wow.. I guess those warnings we should just ignore them warnings on Tobacco packages.. those graphic photos of lung cancers...... whatever hazardous info. available on any Material safety data sheets then aye ? Them carcinogenic warnings.. are worthless, yes ?
Let's DISREGARD all those mumbo jumbo ? As long as it's not 100% we should just ignore them warnings aye ??? LOL !!!
Better be safe than sorry.
Really dude... you're drowning in your own pile of apodictic poop.
Besides.. TS is not a secondary school kid anymore. Time you quit that "sky is falling" atitude of yours.
THIS is an extracted tooth.
See the difference ??
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
LOL.. I see you are struggling here... now dude.. tell me.. if you are HIV negative.. and your partner is HIV positive.. HOW are you going to make her pregnant without getting yourself infected with HIV too ??
"Correlation does not imply causation... especially in statistics"
He can alway use a surrogated husband to do with his wifey -
Originally posted by jojobeach:
How many parents of adopted children do you know ?
Are you even a parent yet ?
I have at least 3 couples of which 2 adopted children outside their own race . 4 teenage single moms who decied against aborting their babies . Growing up, at least 3 of my girl friends had abortions, 2 of which are unable to have kids due to scarring and 1 just went through her 3rd miscarriage.
You talk big.. but you have no idea what it's like to be a parent.
TS already clarified that guy is not his half brother.. go and read TS post properly.
The fact that you think aborting a baby is like a dental removal shows how IGNORANT you are. So please STFU.. educate yourself better before you come here and spout more nonsense.
Here's the stats you ask about..pertaining to psychological damage..
Research by David Reardon of the Elliott Institute has shown that, regardless of age, family size, race, marital status, or number of abortions, of those surveyed:
- 61 percent experience flashbacks
- 54 percent have anniversary reactions
- 33 percent feel suicidal
- 78 percent have feelings of diminished control of their lives
- 52 percent experience difficulty developing and maintaining relationships
- 49 percent begin or increase drug use
Ironically, though women seek out abortion as a solution to stressful circumstances, abortion itself can become a contributor to long-lasting stress of a different kind.
And yes.. if you are old enough to have UNPROTECTED SEX.. you are old enough to view photos of aborted babies..
I am saying if you are hat stupid to get preg, then be punished with a child. Doing an abortion gives another kind of pain.
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Originally posted by Bio-Hawk:
I am saying if you are hat stupid to get preg, then be punished with a child. Doing an abortion gives another kind of pain.
But should an innocent child be punished with a messed-up, irresponsible parent?
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Originally posted by deathmaster:
But should an innocent child be punished with a messed-up, irresponsible parent?
Is a good point for sure. If thoughts of abortion even occurs to a parent then, I do not know what to say. If the child is born they would be living with this messed-up, irresponsible and hating parent for atleast 25 years. Which is better`? -
Jojo,
Seeing we eat animals all the time, would it help to draw a line between life with only sentience, and life with sentience and sapience?
All beings have the former, some animals have the latter, but certainly not a cluster of cells has the latter. People generally avoid eating the more sapient species. If it's not sapient, it's not murder.
I point out all of us have the would-be child's welfare as our only consideration.
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ts, what is the outcome now? Any news?
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She seemed to have been forgotten.
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"And yes.. if you are old enough to have UNPROTECTED SEX.. you are old enough to view photos of aborted babies.."
And you are 100% sure that the users here are all old enough for sex? Nice work setting up the pictures for scarring innocent children....
"Really.. 5 kids ? Me toes are laughing.
Here you are claiming to be father of 5 beautiful kids.. yet you advocate another killing her own child...
Now you know why I think something is wrong with you ?"
The only reason you think so is because you are unable to differentiate betwen a fetus and child. I figure you have nothing left but personal insults in this argument.
"LOL.. I see you are struggling here... now dude.. tell me.. if you are HIV negative.. and your partner is HIV positive.. HOW are you going to make her pregnant without getting yourself infected with HIV too ??"
Are you even thinking when you post that^ sentence? How do you think the HIV got there there 1st place? Which married couple in the right mind would think about child bearing when one is HIV+ and the other is not?
To help you think rationally, picture this: You are HIV+ and your husband is not. Do you think he would support you in getting pregnant? Be content if your husand not divorce you...
Laughable how you present half baked knowledge like it is applicable and relevant. I wonder why you still try to pretend that what you are even knowledgeable about such issues....
The only concerning issue for the mother would be how to prevent/minimize/mitigate vertical tranfer if found to be HIV+.
"Really ? Wow.. I guess those warnings we should just ignore them warnings on Tobacco packages.. those graphic photos of lung cancers...... whatever hazardous info. available on any Material safety data sheets then aye ? Them carcinogenic warnings.. are worthless, yes ?
Let's DISREGARD all those mumbo jumbo ? As long as it's not 100% we should just ignore them warnings aye ??? LOL !!!"
Strawmaning much? Anyway those are government regulations, you don't know that legitimate abortion clinics have such warnings in place, do you?. MSDS is for instructions on how to handle the material, the signs or symtoms and mitigation steps if people were affected. These warnings are there for those who are in need/want to use it, with no other subjectively better options. On topic, cannot imagine what you'd say to mothers pregnant by rape.
If you cannot link the source to the figures you posted, just say so. It just diminish your point of bringing up the statistics without backing it up with reliable source and tangent off with irrelevant issues.
"Really dude... you're drowning in your own pile of apodictic poop.
Besides.. TS is not a secondary school kid anymore. Time you quit that "sky is falling" atitude of yours."
>implying that you are not trying to make TS to rule out abortion as a legitimate option by accusation... What a beach...
"See the difference ??"
Stop kidding yourself... The context was "invasive procedure". The tooth and fetuse would be regarded as bio-hazard waste. You thought that you have a point that abortion is an "invasive procedure", I was just saying that tooth extraction is also an "invasive procedure".to show you how meaningless your emotional appeals are.
So in summation, back up your claim or back off for the sake of the air quality in here.
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Originally posted by alize:
Jojo,
Seeing we eat animals all the time, would it help to draw a line between life with only sentience, and life with sentience and sapience?
All beings have the former, some animals have the latter, but certainly not a cluster of cells has the latter. People generally avoid eating the more sapient species. If it's not sapient, it's not murder.
I point out all of us have the would-be child's welfare as our only consideration.
Short and concise. I agree all but the last sentence. The mother's welfare should be the priority, afterwhich, she'd be in a better state taking care of would be child/ren.
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I think the would-be child has a whole life of potential suffering or enjoyment ahead of him, since the mother brought this about through her actions, she should put the would-be child's interests ahead of her own.
If she cannot provide a net positive life, it's better to end it before it becomes a sapient life. In which case, she is still in neutral territory.
The child would be born with a terminal illness. And notwithstanding this, if she cannot ensure her own welfare after, what more her child's?
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Now in between all the pounding, hollering, pontificating, philosophising and miscombobulating, I'm just wondering if you guys have yet worked out how the OP has punked you into a pointless bitchfight.
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
Now in between all the pounding, hollering, pontificating, philosophising and miscombobulating, I'm just wondering if you guys have yet worked out how the OP has punked you into a pointless bitchfight.
Thank you for you contribution :)
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Just sayin'.
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
Just sayin'.
Mission accomplished. Good job!
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Yeah, well, that cheque better be in the mail.
For what it's worth (not a whole lot, to be frank), whatever one's version of the truth is, it needs to be consistent with the facts and that's where your side sort of stands up. I assume you've read Govier?
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
"And yes.. if you are old enough to have UNPROTECTED SEX.. you are old enough to view photos of aborted babies.."
And you are 100% sure that the users here are all old enough for sex? Nice work setting up the pictures for scarring innocent children....
"Really.. 5 kids ? Me toes are laughing.
Here you are claiming to be father of 5 beautiful kids.. yet you advocate another killing her own child...
Now you know why I think something is wrong with you ?"
The only reason you think so is because you are unable to differentiate betwen a fetus and child. I figure you have nothing left but personal insults in this argument.
"LOL.. I see you are struggling here... now dude.. tell me.. if you are HIV negative.. and your partner is HIV positive.. HOW are you going to make her pregnant without getting yourself infected with HIV too ??"
Are you even thinking when you post that^ sentence? How do you think the HIV got there there 1st place? Which married couple in the right mind would think about child bearing when one is HIV+ and the other is not?
To help you think rationally, picture this: You are HIV+ and your husband is not. Do you think he would support you in getting pregnant? Be content if your husand not divorce you...
Laughable how you present half baked knowledge like it is applicable and relevant. I wonder why you still try to pretend that what you are even knowledgeable about such issues....
The only concerning issue for the mother would be how to prevent/minimize/mitigate vertical tranfer if found to be HIV+.
"Really ? Wow.. I guess those warnings we should just ignore them warnings on Tobacco packages.. those graphic photos of lung cancers...... whatever hazardous info. available on any Material safety data sheets then aye ? Them carcinogenic warnings.. are worthless, yes ?
Let's DISREGARD all those mumbo jumbo ? As long as it's not 100% we should just ignore them warnings aye ??? LOL !!!"
Strawmaning much? Anyway those are government regulations, you don't know that legitimate abortion clinics have such warnings in place, do you?. MSDS is for instructions on how to handle the material, the signs or symtoms and mitigation steps if people were affected. These warnings are there for those who are in need/want to use it, with no other subjectively better options. On topic, cannot imagine what you'd say to mothers pregnant by rape.
If you cannot link the source to the figures you posted, just say so. It just diminish your point of bringing up the statistics without backing it up with reliable source and tangent off with irrelevant issues.
"Really dude... you're drowning in your own pile of apodictic poop.
Besides.. TS is not a secondary school kid anymore. Time you quit that "sky is falling" atitude of yours."
>implying that you are not trying to make TS to rule out abortion as a legitimate option by accusation... What a beach...
"See the difference ??"
Stop kidding yourself... The context was "invasive procedure". The tooth and fetuse would be regarded as bio-hazard waste. You thought that you have a point that abortion is an "invasive procedure", I was just saying that tooth extraction is also an "invasive procedure".to show you how meaningless your emotional appeals are.
So in summation, back up your claim or back off for the sake of the air quality in here.
What exactly is your purpose here ? To prove how well a debater you are ?
Other than attacking how I choose to present my case... I don't see much educational value in your postings.
This is Aunt Agony.. not some mock court you do at school. There is a time and place for everything.. If you so desire a full point-by -point debate.. you can PM me.. I do not wish to burden this thread with your selfish desire to prove how smart you are.
Abortion is not the only way to resolve the problem.
And for your info. a friend of mine is a result of a rape. I've mentioned this before. Her mother is a Roman Catholic ( no abortion policy). She is Hispanic.. growing up in Texas..a place of much racial discrimination... today she is a high flyer.. if her mother had condemned her to death by abortion..she wouldn't be what she is today.
Ofcors you can always disregard my story and call it ancedotal crap.. it's up to you to believe or not.
The fact is ,that I choose to see what life can be, instead of the gloom and doom you seek to portray.
I am very saddened by people like you. To build your ego on the backs of other people's misery.Cheapening the precious life of a child.
As for your children... you will do well imparting them the technical art of argument. Turn them into little assholes nobody gives a crap about.
I wish you peace and happiness, if you can ever attain it.
